One of the Best in the Series (Welcome, New Fans)

[mdesaleah]

By far this is still the game with the most content with replay value, best story, and best ranking system thats actually difficult and requires mastering. There's a reason this was the best selling third party game on Gamecube and still has a fan following today.

If its not the favorite for you, then its most likely in top 5 for sure.

One of those, hard to learn and fun to master games.

Edit: http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...

Some backstory the main game leaves vague and translated from a Japanese only guide.

Already knew about this, but since it never got officially translated it might be new information you haven’t seen.

How To Make Your Own Levels: Feel free to check out this tutorial for how to make your own SA2 level: https://gamebanana.com/tuts/15179 (not my guide)

Making a basic level only takes about 20 minutes, and you won't need to know how to code. However, for more advanced features such as rails or automated loops, you will need to know how to code to add those in, until new tools come out.

All you'll need is blender, a sonic adventure 2 add-on for blender, and a program called 'SATools,' and all of the links you need are included in the tutorial. You can either follow the steps or watch the indepth video.

Edit: Official Shadow Generations Shorts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZK8bse3Quo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2fwSuA7nbI

Edit: https://i.imgur.com/JA8vP5Z.png heres an obscure Japanese only one page comic that ends up adding some nice added context

Edit: really good explanation of how the ranking positively influenced the level design

https://m.youtube.com/watch?index=2238&list=LLqCNit03-7g5g4vJbdKZnCA&v=mlz-K3tRVxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MLrvh4Fgi4&ab_channel=Eldarin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqB9tZrR6DQ&ab_channel=Acruxicon

[mdesaleah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZrNVa5McCo

It was always inevitable since CD.

This would be the 3rd Batman crossover that I know of. (4th if you count the movie 2, but thats more a more vague reference and not direct)

Also a few moths back Marvel announced the 100th Miles Morales Spiderman comic, and that one is an SA1 reference on the cover. So interesting that both Batman and Spiderman have directly referenced and been referenced by Sonic.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQql74PogePDOWTBTqItQUwvORUthMYzMTwuA&s

[mdesaleah]

New Central/Direct announcements tomorrow.

Probably a reveal of the other two Shadow Generations animations, and when theyll release hopefully. Another gameplay trailer is pretty inevitable.

I dont expect any completely new game announced since theres still a lot that hasnt released. Maybe something about Rumble not being stuck to mobile?

[NBOX21]

In preparation for the upcoming Shadow Generations, I decided to try and play through the original Shadow (2005) game again. Emphasis on tried because I found several aspects of the game to be very boring and not all that enjoyable.

Everything good about the level design from previous and future 3D Sonic games was nowhere to be seen at all, some of the characters were completely flanderised (like the 2010's games, but on the complete opposite extreme), the slippery movement and Chaotix missions from Heroes were made way worse and the game was unappealing to look at despite using the same engine as Heroes which looked great.

And unlike the 2010's Sonic games, you can't even skip the cutscenes the first time you see them, meaning you have to deal with the game's bad writing whether you like it or not.

Special mention goes to the PS2 port that runs really bad and has abysmal load times, which was inexcusable for 2005 as there were plenty of other PS2 games that looked great without compromising performance. Ratchet Gladiator/Deadlocked came out on PS2 the same year.

Even the ranking system was ruined, with by far the easiest ranks in the entire series (probably including Forces) that outright discourages mastery of the levels especially when doing the Normal missions where level score does not matter and you can get enough points from the time bonus alone even when making several major mistakes along the way.

Let's just hope that Shadow Generations doesn't repeat a lot of the same mistakes that brought down the 2005 Shadow game. Thankfully, based on everything we've seen so far, it's looking a lot more promising.

[mdesaleah]

^Never played the PS2 version. Although I've heard the worst PS2 port is Heroes. Thats the one that gets way more attention than Shadow on PS2.

Ranking is simple. But lets not exaggerate and say its Forces simple, where you dont even have to try and the Daily Bonus for doing objectives (like its a mobile game) can boost your score to ridiculous highs. Shadow you at least need to be aware of what faction of enemy you're defeating and if they are Hero or Dark, and try to avoid the ones that match the objective you're doing. And the missions with tight objectives do require effort in memorizing what you have to find and then doing it quickly.

In terms of flanderizing, yeah its pretty bad. Although I dont really know any other example than Shadow himself. He's completely off for most of it (probably as an attempt to accommodate for how you can just change sides at any point, which was probably a mistake and makes writing any story messy), everyone else seems fine enough (but they show up a lot less).

My biggest complaint for another character would be the line near the end where the President tells the GUN Commander that they should "honor Gerald for saving them" (something like that). At least that line is a translation error and apparently phrased differently in the Japanese original. Cause the English dub ends up trying to paint Gerald as a hero, even though in his previous appearance, he goes insane and tries to blow up the planet.

The biggest story issue for me other than Shadow's writing as a main character, is trying to retcon the Eclipse Canon as something made by Gerald in secret to destroy the comet. When SA2 implies that it most likely was GUN who funded it, as Shadow (the character) in SA2 states that Gerald built multiple weapons of war that remained unseen. Building weapons was pretty much how Gerald prolonged funding for his real objective being Shadow as a cure. Of course GUN would know about the Eclipse Cannon, its enormous, probably cost them a ton to even make, and isnt something Gerald could just hide the purpose of.

"Let's just hope that Shadow Generations doesn't repeat a lot of the same mistakes that brought down the 2005 Shadow game". The game released in 2005. Its not even the same devs around anymore, so trying to tie this with Shadow Generations when its been 18 years is a bit much.

[ErMun]

My problems with ShTH are wish that the game was more about shooting (not that we got in result), 2 of 10 endings are hilariously stupid and feeling that character cast is overflowed (Sonic's friends and Chaotix are unnecessary)

[mdesaleah]

ErMun eredeti hozzászólása:

My problems with ShTH are wish that the game was more about shooting (not that we got in result), 2 of 10 endings are hilariously stupid and feeling that character cast is overflowed (Sonic's friends and Chaotix are unnecessary)

If I were to rewrite Shadow's game and change things extensively. Or at least how its organized.

I'd make it more of a Team Dark game instead, with Shadow being the focus but with Omega and Rouge playing reappearing roles. To keep the multiple paths idea, I'd instead have it be 3 set paths with no diverging (Dark, Neutral, Hero). With Hero being the one considered "canon" to a True Ending. More like SA2 where you pick a side and are forced to stick with it the whole way. Sacrifices choice, but adds in a lot more cohesion.

Each path would be longer than the 10 current ones, but that would allow for 3 stories that are more focused since you wouldnt be able to switch sides at all. So then they could tell an actual story with the elements that are already there without jumping around constantly (like the androids, the commander, the black arms....)

And I'd cut out the Eclipse Canon retcon. The rest of the ending can mostly remain the same though. Make it's use to destroy the comet a coincidence. Something GUN asked to be built (like its implied in SA2), but Shadow is smart enough to realize that it could also be used to destroy the comet (or have the GUN commander make the decision instead). Maybe have it fail to finish the job at first, so Super Shadow is required (change the order of events there so firing the canon happens before the final boss instead of after). This avoids the implication that "GUN asking to build planet destroying weapons is actually a good thing" since in my version Gerald did not build it with the intent to use it on the comet.

[NBOX21]

mdesaleah eredeti hozzászólása:

^Never played the PS2 version. Although I've heard the worst PS2 port is Heroes. Thats the one that gets way more attention than Shadow on PS2.

Which is weird, because I own the PS2 versions of both games and found Shadow's PS2 port to be far worse than the Heroes PS2 port in just about every aspect. At least Heroes was passable on PS2 with only minor frame rate drops and much more reasonable load times, but Shadow's PS2 port frequently drops below 20FPS and has load times about as long as Sonic 2006.

Ranking is simple. But lets not exaggerate and say its Forces simple, where you dont even have to try and the Daily Bonus for doing objectives (like its a mobile game) can boost your score to ridiculous highs. Shadow you at least need to be aware of what faction of enemy you're defeating and if they are Hero or Dark, and try to avoid the ones that match the objective you're doing. And the missions with tight objectives do require effort in memorizing what you have to find and then doing it quickly.

Even that goes out the window when there are several Hero or Dark objectives where I can have a higher score for the opposite faction or have zero points at all (whether deliberate or otherwise) yet still easily get an A rank just for finishing it as quickly as possible. And I wish I was exaggerating.

The A rank requirement for Westopolis' normal mission is 32,000 points. You can get a 32K time bonus from finishing the level in 3 minutes and 45 seconds. I can easily finish it in 2 minutes and 15 seconds with mistakes.

Getting the A rank in The ARK is easier than the easiest Forces S rank and may as well be boost to win with how little you have to engage with the game at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-CSiFraxBc
The only difficult A ranks in Shadow are The Doom and Lost Impact (excluding the Normal missions) but only because they're literally structured like a maze and are very easy to get lost.

There's a good reason why the ranking system in SA2 and Heroes require more than just time to achieve the best ranks, and why Unleashed Wii's level design was built around its time based ranking system.

[mdesaleah]

^ The Ark Neutral is a really easy mission to A rank since its more of an on-rails minigame than a stage.

But for me and many others, The Ark is most of Forces when it comes to ranks. Shadow's ranks aren't very complex, but you do have to pay attention to level design and play well enough.

Forces level design doesnt really have that benefit since its all 2 minutes max and a lot of it is holding boost through simple stages. Add the benefit of daily multipliers and the ranking system might as well not be there.

Shadow's ranks arent anything great, but them being there is an ok addition that isnt too easy, and isnt too difficult. Its at a weird "it exists, and you can go for them if you put some effort into them". Its no Heroes and SA2 thats for sure.

I dont really care about this comparison all that much though. It feels like comparing "meh" to "pathetically easy"

[mdesaleah]

Could also be due to experience?

Fans are going to naturally be better at the games already. But if I give Shadow’s game for my brother to try then there are sometimes A ranks, but a lot of CS or lower.

Giving Forces for him to run through ended with A’s or S practically every time

I’d put him more around the middle. Not bad, but he’s also not someone who plays the series all the time.

[NBOX21]

mdesaleah eredeti hozzászólása:

I dont really care about this comparison all that much though. It feels like comparing "meh" to "pathetically easy"

Both games were both of these things for me, but yeah, I do think a much better comparison to demonstrate Shadow's lack of substance is with Wii Unleashed. All you need to achieve the S ranks are getting a good time like Shadow, but actually achieving the record times felt like a challenge as you're rewarded with seconds shaved off your time by taking shortcuts and alternate routes, encouraging replays to learn the levels.

Sonic Advance 3 had the same system with its Gold, Silver and Bronze medals and was just as replayable and enjoyable there.

mdesaleah eredeti hozzászólása:

Could also be due to experience?

Fans are going to naturally be better at the games already. But if I give Shadow’s game for my brother to try then there are sometimes A ranks, but a lot of CS or lower.

Giving Forces for him to run through ended with A’s or S practically every time

I’d put him more around the middle. Not bad, but he’s also not someone who plays the series all the time.

Eh, probably? That may have something to do with it.

Although part of it is also due to how exploitable the scoring can be. For example, Final Haunt's dark mission will have you killing a lot of enemies on the dark side faction and there are no enemies on the hero side faction, resulting in a harsh penalty to your score at the end - if you don't deliberately fall off the stage right at the end to reset those scores to zero so you don't get any deductions. The time bonus can carry you through the rest of the way to an A rank if you clear it fast enough, making it feel more like you're being punished for playing the game properly.

Other than that, I think 10:19-12:07 of this video accurately sums up my experience with Shadow's ranking system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASvz0XxHPjE

[mdesaleah]

Well that explains why I couldn’t A rank Final Haunt. I haven’t gone all the way with A ranks in that game, but I’ve slowly been going every now and then.

Shadow Generations seems like it’s taking the Advance 3 and Unleashed Wii route for its ranks. Levels are back to being a bit longer at 5 minutes, and messing up on the time means the S is gone

[GrimAtrament]

i enjoy both adventure games equally. they both have their pros and cons but are what every 3d style sonic game should have been going for.

i'm just going to break down my thoughts. warning wall of text. this is part one about gameplay mostly i'll do a more indepth story post next.

level design

i'd say they are about even with levels sonic adventure 1 levels i gravitate towards more just because they tend to be longer with multiple sections in a single level.
but both are good. however i feel like not enough is said about the effort SA1 put into the levels. they all feel organic like they belong in the world they are in.

this is mostly attributed to each level in adventure being designed for multiple characters at once rather then separate levels. they also have the multiple branching paths and feel more like a platformer game then a single player racing game a lot of the boost formula games tend to suffer from. not to say all boost formula games are bad, but a lot of them lost the feeling of a platformer and feel like they have to rely to much on 2d sections for the platforming aspect.

getting off topic anyway both SA1 and SA2 have different level design philosophy.

SA1 levels tend to be closer to that playground and are more organic built into the environment so it feels like your running through a world and not a level. it has a ton of great stages. i don't think we will ever get another game that matches the feel of the open level design that SA1 had. my favorites being hot shelter, lost world, speed highway, red mountain, emerald coast, twinkle park, final egg, windy valley,

SA2 feels more gamey with its level which is not a bad thing. my favorites were Security Hall, Pumpkin Hill, Lost Colony, Eternal Engine, Metal Harbor, Weapons Bed, Iron gate, Crazy Gadget, Cosmic Wall, Death Chamber, Egg Quarters, Final Chase, Final Rush, Sky Rail and white jungle were some of my favorites. they felt more like challenges to over come rather then part of a world. which made them excellent for a more challenging gameplay loop rather then a more exploration one.

ark level design was excellent for it's day using a lot of real world theories for a space colony.

boss design. Is amixed bag. both games do suffer from repetitive bosses.

SA2 bigfoot and golem but with that at least some of them mixed it up a bit. golem fight with eggman isn't the same as the one with sonic. flying dog varient of big foot for rogue.

SA1 worst boss was chaos 4 which unfortunately i will have to ding for having to fight that guy no less then 3 times. while chaos 6 is also repetitive bigs can be cheesed and so can knuckles and sonic with knuckles heat knuckle attack and sonics light speed attack when you have the crystal bracelet.

i felt like king boom boos boss was a bit extra and mostly there to just give knuckles another boss then just the one rogue fight.

however i'd say SA1 has some great eggman bosses zero, egg walker, egg hornet. with egg viper, and beta mark 2 being two of my all time favorites.
chaos 1 and 2 were also fun.

sonic adventure 2 has the better final bosses. with biolizard and final hazard.

Sonic adventure 2 has the better character bosses hands down. zero competition. sonic adventure character fights are a joke. if it wasn't for the funny knuckles "oh no" meme it wouldn't be worth mentioning.


alright moving on to character desgins.
knuckles/rogue/ gameplay

base mechanics treasure hunt levels were always a treat a simple yet effective collectathon style platformer gameplay loop.
but
sonic adventure 2 had the better treasure hunt mechanics
the drilldash inclusion was the best mechanic they though of for knuckles kept the treasure hunting fast paced where SA1 you'd have to stop to dig anytrhing. knuckles punching was less static as well allowing you to not stop moving while you were searching for the emeralds. even the removal of the open radar adventure had doesn't change that.

security hall is the best treasure hunt stage in the series. keeping it fast pace with a timer adding urgency to your collecting.

however that said there are two levels i do have to criticize. aquatic mine and Mad Space overstayed their welcome i think when people keep saying treasure hunt stages are slow i think they are remembering only those two levels. because they do have a habbit of putting the emeralds in very out of the way places.


Amy gameplay
amy gameplay was amazing. i cannot stop gushing about the vertical acrobatic gameplay amy introduced. building momentum to peform acrobatic flips to get across the environment was the best gameplay introduction for amy. my main gripe with amy in adventure was that She did not get enough levels.

i felt robbed when she was not playable in adventure 2. let alone that she didn't keep any of her acrobatics in the multiplayer mode. to be fair she made up for that by being an absolute menace to my mental health with time stop.


big
Big is the biggest problem adventure had. i will not say anything then else on the subject. i feel like most people like him for memes and making fun of sonic series. there is one thing to note. his levels can easily be cheese once you get the float ring. you can swim over to froggy and fish him out while hes right next to you basically instantaneously. so clearly the devs also didn't think much of him either.

Tails/eggman/gamma.
tails is a bit of a weird one for me. his levels in adventure were basically shorter sonic levels, but his mechanics were great, but his race game-play gimick was meh. the only one i really enjoyed was the eggman race. i feel like sonic team didn't quite know what to do with him.
same with SA2 a lot of his levels don't feel as polished as eggmans who we will get to later. and i feel like SA2 tails could have actually benefited if they took a single leaf out of shadow the hedgehog games book. kept tails with most his adventure mechanics, but gave him his sonic battle blaster instead of his plane mech thing that we basically never see again after this game. i really hate to say it but tails really felt like an after thought in adventure 2 especially when he gets less upgrades then eggman.

Gamma had the best shooting mechanics he was fast kept the hp is rings and a mix of time attack keeping the pacing quick. he also had a lot of fun if repetitive bosses at the end of his levels. his animations felt like what a heavy but fast robot should have felt like that said.

eggman levels is king
while yes i did say gamma had the best mechanics.
eggman makes up for in speed and slightly more clunky mechanics with sheer level design. i think only one of his level are even a miss. that being Sand Ocean.
each one of his levels are on par with shadow and sonics levels. i always got giddy when his symbol appear as a kid during storymode. his level are just a fun. just the amount of effort into those levels was a joy to play. i don't think we will quite get another experience like cosmic wall again.

i still think it's a crime that most his levels are not appreciated anymore simply because of how badly the pc port has gutted them. his levels sadly are missing the most things from the original due to bad port glitches. his lost colony and iron gate are level missing the darkness due to that stupid lighting bug the pc port has.

Sonic/shadow

now for the main course.
both games this is hands down the best sonic gameplay i've experience in years frontier only being a close follow up. (I've not ever had a chance to play unleashed so i don't know if it's better or not.) the momentum and platforming challenge the game offered is still unmatched.

howver i have a lot of things that are conflicting between both games have i do feel like SA2 sonic was a expansion on SA1 sonic in some places, but unfortunately i feel like the spin dash makes me pefer SA1 mechanics a bit more. let me get this off my chest first though. who thought SA2 Somersault was a good idea? I did not like. it took away form the nice flow SA1 spindash had. why did sonic need to Somersault under obstetrical and not just spin dash through them? isn't spin dash just a speedy Somersault anyways? why could he not spin dash through boxes but Somersault through them at a lower speed? not to mention that Somersault killed your momentum.

i cannot believe Somersault was added as anything but a nerf to SA1 spindash.

all right that out of the way i do feel like SA2 did add some great new mechanics from the pole vaulting to the grind rails. to sonic bounce bracelet that for what ever reason shadow didn't get a equivalent to. Sonic adventure could have used the ring dash SA2 had as well as stopping to charge up light speed dash also killed momentum so it ended up being a mechanic i mostly ignored unless i had to use it. which in mot cases you did not since you could do a lot of tricks with spin dash alone in SA1.

the sheer amount of things you could pull off in SA1 with that spin dash is just so good. complemented by SA1 stellar level designs.

i'd say you can't go wrong with either games sonic mechanics, but again i feel like somersault is a blight on SA2 otherwise flawless game mechanics for the hedgehogs. which makes me gravitate more towards SA1 sonic.

side nitpick did anyone ever actually use light speed attack in either game? i feel like it was only ever useful to me in the egg viper boss fight when he threw the saws at you. and that's for both games.

all right next

replayablity/mission mode.

SA2 wins with this. but for reasons i will get to later.

when it came to the in story mode mini games
SA2 thing i can say though i absolutely HATE the race car mini game.
SA1 had the better in story mode mini game with the biplane rail shooter, but not by a wide margin and unlike SA2 it did overstay its welcome a bit more by having you do it four times.
the snow boarding is fun and the casino level was basically a sonic spin ball mini game which was fun.
SA1DX has more variety with it's mission mode. having open world quest and a ton of different challenges to do. however some of them were hit or miss. SA1DX also had the addon game gear game collection,

so why do i think SA2 wins on replayability.

Sure SA2 mission modes had less mission in it. it did have a multiplayer mode, but that can be hit or miss depending on your social circle and if you grew up a only child.

however SAS2 added one things that made it Superior.

it's chao gardern.

yes SA1 has a chao garden, but it's bare bones compared to SA2.
it didn't have a shop untill SADX. it didn't have chaos drives, limited selection on animals. smaller chao gardens. some of which were way to dangerous for the chaos to put them there (mystic ruin garden.)

SA2 was better in every way.
it introduced Chaos drives which made raising chaos more fun since if you didn't like animal parts you could simply not use them. but it also had a wider selection of animal parts including an animal you could use to clean off animal parts if you didn't want any.

which makes doing the missions in SA2 even more fun. because you can unlock more things for it. or do them while you are collecting chaos drives for the chao garden.
the sheer amount of effort that went into the chao garden is amazing.
the dark and light aspects the more flushed out designs with the different types of growth. you can literally spend hours doing nothing, but that.

sonic adventure 1 repeatability for me is replaying story mode so i usually end up deleting save and replaying for the story again. SA2 avoids this problem by keeping story mode available. and it's chao garden incentived you to not erase your save data.

that said i wish it kept the last story intro
this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfI9tyGatlk you can only get it once.

both games have there strength and weaknesses which is why some like one more then the other. i don't think either is any worse or better then the other though.

[mdesaleah]

^For Eggman you can restore the missing effects on PC with the SA2RenderFixes Mod. The lighting bugs making things so much brighter and removing the atmosphere also threw me off. So it’s good to have a mod that fixes this and other PC/HD bugs. Lost Colony is now appropriately dark, and Eggman gets his flashlight back

SA1 and SA2 are like two sides of a coin? A Yin and Yang? They are opposites in a lot of ways, but also intentional with how they do it, and they still fit well as a pair.

[GrimAtrament]

mdesaleah eredeti hozzászólása:

^For Eggman you can restore the missing effects on PC with the SA2RenderFixes Mod. The lighting bugs making things so much brighter and removing the atmosphere also threw me off. So it’s good to have a mod that fixes this and other PC/HD bugs. Lost Colony is now appropriately dark, and Eggman gets his flashlight back

SA1 and SA2 are like two sides of a coin? A Yin and Yang? They are opposites in a lot of ways, but also intentional with how they do it, and they still fit well as a pair.

i really think SA2 needs the SA1 community compilation patch treatment. to restore it to it's former glory. because so many things are missing in the pc port from detailed images to lighting even the rail mechanic is completely absent.

anyway onto part two of my thoughts on the games story/music.

because you cannot really talk about these games without talking about the music. because the games in a sense tell the story through them. it honestly amazing how much story telling is packed withing the vocal songs.

i say that both games are one story. Sonic adventure 1 is the set up and characterization for the characters goring forward in sonic adventure 2. sonic adventure is the first vocal narrative story it gives the most flushed out versions of the character. sonic adventure focus is mostly on the individual growth and about chaos/ the emeralds/ and knuckles past. Sonic adventure 2 is more complex and the more flushed out story. it's less about the small self discoveries and more about conflict. but the musical story tellng is actually genuines because it builds on narrative without using actual cutscenes.

sonic is a static character and he works great as one. he is who he is as he says in SA2 "i'm just a guy who loves adventure." his song it doesn't matter reflects who he is.

"Well, I don't show off, don't criticize
I'm just livin' by my own feelings
And I won't give in, won't compromise
I just only have a steadfast heart of gold
I don't know why, I can't leave though it might be tough
But I ain't out of control, just livin' by my word
Don't ask me why, I don't need a reason
I got my way, my own way"

this is just who he is his own philosophy. Sonic doesn't need to change he knows who he is and is confident. hence his past doesn't matter. he mostly story wise takes a back seat to the story at large in both games outside being the hero and driving/changing force for the other characters.

Amy and tails stories both are about overcoming their own insecurities and dependencies.
and that is reflected in their songs.

tails literally opens with him talking about it. with the lines.

"When all alone in my chair, I just go about wishin'
I wanna be strong, I really wanna be trusted
When all alone in my bed, I just go about yearnin'
I wanna be cool, I also wanna be like him
But that's not somethin' I can do so easily
This is not simply my way, my style
Gotta get a hold of my life."

even later in the song he says

"When all alone in my sleep
I just go about dreamin'
I see myself there, having the same adventure
If I just follow you, I will not see the light
Now's the time to find my way through this life
I'm tryin' so hard to be strong."

tails accepts he is not sonic and cannot be sonic. the story of SA1-SA2 is about him finding his own person and self identity. culminating in the battle with eggman on the ark where he takes control of his own life. becoming the mechanical genius he is from that game on-wards. he becomes essentially his own person. we sadly don't see more of this side of him until frontier.

Amy story is also similar to tails, but also about not being simply the maiden in distress.
her song is not just about her love for sonic, but about her own insecurities.

in the lines

"(Makes me wanna be his specialty)
I guess I'm just a self-centered girl
But there are nights that I have trouble going to sleep
(Sweet sweet you're so sweet) So many things I want
(Sweet sweet you're so sweet) I want to be a wonderful girl
(Sweet sweet you're so sweet) I'm not simple-minded
(Sweet sweet you're so sweet) And I won't be a pearl
You probably need me just as much as I need you"

you can see her own insecurities and worries about herself. the story ends with her accepting that she has been to self center and relying on sonic to do things for her instead of doing what she can on her own.
again her story is a self growth story. (unfortunately she back slides almost immediately in SA2.) but she is still learns to be less self centered and more compassionate about others. this is why it makes sense that she would be the one to snap shadow out of his constraints made by gerald. just as she freed gamma. speaking of which.

gammas story is much more tragic. he starts out as nothing but a puppet for eggman, but as the story goes on he starts having self doubts. when his brothers and sisters are banished is the start, but it get worse when he comes across beta and starts to realize they are just disposable pawns. culminating with his conversation with amy. causing him to become his own agent, but it's also tragic because even the song tells you where the story is headed. he has to "free." his brothers and sisters form eggman, but that also means their death.

his lyrics reflect this with the constant repeating line.
you hear eggmans progarming of "get that emerald." but also

"It's my pleasure
Ready to die?"

which is foreshadowing for his end.

gammas story is a classical tragedy he becomes free, but only in death. his story is a simple but also porbably one of the best ones from the franchise.

SA1 story IS knuckles. it's about his past and his people.
and if any thing knuckles' story is the reverse of tails and amy. he starts learning to trust others.

knuckles starts the game questioning his own purpose and why hes doing what hes doing. but hes also afraid of knowing.
the further in the game we get in all stories the more we unlock. this is why i always recommenced playing sonics and knuckles story last. because it connects to the final story of the game.

one of the most repeating lines in his song is

"Won't be frightened," but deep down knuckles is actually afraid. hes afraid to trust others especially after Sonic and knuckles with eggman betraying him. we learn more that despite his tough act he is a very very frightened person. because of how little he knows of the world. he also is afraid of his own history which you can see through out the game where he tries to brush off the past sequences and focus on whats in front of him.

knuckles despite what meta era did to him. isn't stupid, but he is naive and essentially extremely innocent. he lived most his life in isolation so he doesn't know a lot about the world.
that insecurity is why he so easily ends up once again fighting sonic because of eggmans words.
however he starts to slowy accept that perhaps not everyone is after him.
in SA2 we see him fully accept his role as the mater emerald guardian and is no longer native to it's nature or past. he know why he must do what he does.

in essence the entire themes of Sonic adventure is about facing your own insecurities and being more open to change which is what makes the main theme open your heart all the more fitting.

in SA2 knuckles gets more musical story telling then anyone else besdies shadow

kick the rock gives more details about rogue and knuckles conflict. ironically it's through this song that we learn who rogue is via knuckles even mentions
"Rouge, she's sexy and smooth!
A double cross spy-thief,"

setting her up as someone who will back stab eggman and shadow. that shes more then just a simple theif.

knuckles has a few other songs, but they are mostly about where he is, but one in particular is very intrest.

kncukles in Deeper the death chamber song becomes more accepting of sonic.

we hear sonic say
"Eggman wants to steal the stones
Keep the emeralds and build a throne"

knuckles replys

"Not if I can help at all
I will not let him take it over
Sonic, what are you doin' here?"


"I heard you were on a quest for the Master Emerald" sonic

knuckles
"You know me and you don't get along"

Sonic
replies with
"I don't think that's the point right now, Knuckles
I know how much the emerald means to you
And I wanna help get it back
Stop bein' stubborn and think"

"Well I guess you're right" knuckles

meteor heard is mostly about the level, but it leaves in a little brain worm for the player.

"Ain't a criminal, crime don't pay
Seen a crazy look, Eggman's face"

the ark was not made by eggman so why does it have his face? we also learn about eggmans past in this game his grandfathers and a lot about his motivations, but like sonic eggman already knows who he is which is why i am the eggman is a reflection of that just like sonics it doesn't matter is a reflection.

but here is the twist the first lines in eggmans song isn't about himself.

"The story begins with who's gonna win
Knowin' the danger that lies within
Aboard the ARK a genius at heart
Who wanted to unlock the mysteries of life"

this is not eggman this is Gerald. it's setting up for the main story of the game.

eggman doesn't care about life. he only cares about himself and the rest of the song reflects that. but heres the thing it forshadows why he will eventually team up with sonic.

"I must play this game by my rules
I will conquer the world with my tools
All my machines are made for destruction
I will build my empire
I will succeed and you will see
With my machines there is no retreat"

he doesn't want to merely win. he wants to win by his own rules no one elses.

rogue is less a thief and more of a detective/spy.

this is reflected in her only song.

"I feel that my wish will come true
I’ve never thought ahead to that luck
Is it my treasure?
Tell me what I’m really looking for
Fancy came to my mind
It leads me to somewhere far away
Distant place – distant time
Fly in the freedom
Time never stop and wait for me
Show the way
Looking for answers
And looking for the clue"

shes not here looking for the master emerald in the first place that's just a side thing and shes quick to give it up her true aim was to discover who shadow was and ultimately stopping him.

of course the main plot and story is shadow. just as adventure did a lot to focus on knuckles shadow is the main part of the story.

his story starts out as a simple revenge against the world, but the furture you play the more you doubt yourself on who shadow is. to many inconsistencies start to happen. shadows empathy and personality seem at odds with what hes trying to do even rogue points out he didn't have to save her. he could have just taken the chaos emeralds and left.

his songs do a perfect job at building his character and stroy. a lot of his lyrics are also maria and Gerald talking to him.


throw it all away is basically simply about him throwing away his life and everything maria cared about for revenge without even realizing it.

the song often repeats "Now, wake up, up, up, up..." because shadow essentially asleep due to Gerald altering his memories.

the song also has contradictions arguebly geralds progaraming conflicting with shadow true desires.

"Head straight for your goal by any means." Is gerald basically
but shadow self doubt comes right after it.

"There is a door that you never have opened
There is a window with the view you have never seen."

then Gerald rage and programming cuts in again.
"Get there, no matter how long it takes"

you see more slef doubt in the line.
"You see the light wherever you go
You have to face it again and again"

this continues to grow with his next vocal stage white forest. called Rhythm And Balance this is where maria comes into play. after he gets a flash back to maria's death he goes to rescue rogue.

"Oh yeah, hurry to the unexplored land
I'm not scared at all"

is shadow

but maria comes in with

"Are you scared of something?"

"Oh yeah, hurry to the unexplored land
I don't mind any walls or any obstacles
Oh yeah, hurry to the unexplored land
I'm not scared at all
And I don't wanna hear you
I don't wanna hear you (x2)" -is shadow replying to maria.

even more with

"Shadow, don't make me upset" is maria again trying to get through to shadow but shadows to full of sorrow and anger to want to listen

"I don't wanna hear you"


"Shadow, don't make me upset
You are frightened of something"

the song continues. with this back in forth.


the next musical story telling peice is much later because shadow went back to focusing on his mission untill final chase

the song The Supernatural

"I am the ultimate life, a flawless existence
Nothing is unpredictable to me, nothing can surprise me
I am the mystery of the world, I can tell it by their cold eyes
I am the warrior, it's my way to go
Give me your huge potential with your fluid motion
Just
Tell me the truth are you really the ultimate life?
Just
Nothing is unpredictable to me, nothing can surprise me
I am the mystery of the world, I can tell it by their cold eyes."

this song comes out after the bombshell rogue dropped on him that he might not be the real shadow/ultimate life form. hes now filled with self doubt once more and it all is coming rushing back to him.

who shadow is is essentially a paladin a soldier that follows a oath. he will follow this oath no matter what, but that is been thrown into question.

hes asking himself if hes actually who he says he is.
that's when Gerald cuts in after all this once again with.

"Just move, It's the time
Just move, it's the time for you
Just move, it's the time for you
Just move, it's the time for you"

the next peice of musical story telling is after he finally remembers everything.

it's also a sad song since it's basical sung by maria. Supporting Me.

"I believe in my future, farewell to the shadow
It was my place to live, but now I need your hand
Lead me out with your light, I have breathed in
The disgusting air of darkness, but I never lose out"

is most likely akin to maria's final thoughts.

this is reinforced with the last lines.
"I know you're supporting me...
Supporting me... supporting me...
I'll be losing you before long"

it's also alluding to shadow fate

live and learn is the ultimate combiation of all the story pieces coming together.

the best line

"Hanging on the edge of tomorrow
Live and learn!
From the works of yesterday"

trying to save the future from the mistakes of the past. geralds tragic reevenge ultimately being the past. gerald has been
both sonic adventures musical story telling is great to look at.

[mdesaleah]

^ill have to read this more in detail. But wow, that’s a lot of thought out into this. Interested to read about how you view both as very similar and as continuations.

I’ll give you my mod list later to make it close to an SA1 patch. Cause that type of mod does exist for SA2, and SARenderingFixes is one of them

I’ll also go into the music. I love the music and how they’re both genres that fit the character and also lyrics. Sonic and Shadow’s final fight also mix both genres with the lyrics reflecting Shadow’s feelings of hollowness and determination.
“Stars don’t twinkle, the moon doesn’t shine” “Birds don’t sing, the wind doesn’t blow” “I’m shivering with cold” “I struggle against despair”. While also going into a Sonic-style guitar usually used for his stages since they are fighting

You get so much more out of things by paying attention to the music. Just from this one you can tell that the determination is still strong, but the joy that used to be there for him is gone. Only the task matters now

Don’t get me started on the Live and Learn motifs they sneak in everywhere