Practice Mode Please!

[LoFiOtter]

I feel like this game could strongly benefit from a "practice mode", especially for some of the higher difficulties. Of course, maybe not until the world first Lunar race is over! But as someone working their way through Hard, it can be a bummer to get to a boss and die to the same mechanic that got me last time after dedicating about 10-15 minutes to the run. Especially on longer runs where maybe I do have two zones knocked down, but the third boss is one I'm struggling with.

I think I saw mention of a sandbox mode in the works post-release and that'd be ideal for sure. It'd probably be much more work but a "simulate mechanic" button just to practice that ONE mechanic that keeps getting your ass would be nice, too. Anything that lets me practice Area Bosses without spending 15 minutes to get to them would be excellent though.

Huge fan of this game, for what it's worth. Love so much of what's going on. As someone who isn't really into Bullet Hells, this is way more accessible for me in a fun way.

[S.C]

Originally posted by Elmdor:

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but you quoted me so I'll response as if it is.

Yes, this time it actually was directed at you ^_^. Also I just took those 5 minutes from your example for my own, but my point still stands if I replaced 5 minutes with say... 50 minutes.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

That being said no one has asked for this requested practice mode to also let people choose individual boss phases. The only request has been to start on a boss without having to go through a bunch of content they are already comfortable with clearing. Zone bosses are 6 fights before you can attempt them using the fastest way possible and the final boss is 18 fights before you can even attempt to learn it. I'm fine with doing a whole boss from the start even if the phase I'm having trouble with is the last part. It's still WAY less time than if someone was to start from the beginning. Maybe you got confused when I said version of the boss which does not mean the individual phases.

You missed my point here. People who say those 50 minutes are important view the journey to the boss as PART of the boss, as if the boss had more phases.

You just said yourself, you are fine with having to redo a bosse's phases every single time, until getting back to the portion that causes you trouble. Should you not be fine with the following boss fight then:

Phase 1: boss spawns 3 random adds in succession for you to fight. Beating an add heals you a bit.
Phase 2: boss spawns another add for you to fight
Phase 3: boss spawns yet another add for you to fight
Phase 4: boss fights you directly. Upon beating phase 3 you get healed a bit.
Phase 5: boss fights you directly again.
Final phase: boss transforms into an animal, and fights you for the third time.

Because this is how Rabbit & Steel is structured in the eyes of someone saying that those 50 minutes of journey are important. For them there is no "staring at the screen for 30 minutes before trying again". For them it's "beating the earlier phases again, to get to the later ones".

You do see how adding a practice mode for phases 2-3 from my example would make for a different experience, right? This does NOT invalidate anyones wish for a practice mode, but it does highlight the main reason why not everyone is in favor.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Except this point ignores everyone's complaint about being able to beat all the fights leading up to a zone boss and then struggling against the zone boss. Yes the fights leading up to the zone boss show off what attacks the zone boss will be using. While it's a good learning indicator for the mechanics used by the zone bosses they use them in completely different and more difficult ways. It doesn't matter how many times I've beated Saya because the puzzle sequences for Twili are completely different. There lies the problem. After beating Saya for the 10th time only to fail on Twili because it's that much more difficult you tend to get tired of fighting Saya and all the other lead up bosses. If only there was a way to get actual experience on the part I'm having trouble on without long delays between it. You yourself mentioned this so why are you making me repeat to you

I honestly don't feel like I ignored it. My guess is, you missunderstood what I meant with "learning experience", because I was not taking about introducing mechanics to the player. What I meant is that clearing earlier fights is viewed as part of the journey. Part of the experience. I think the boss example I made above does illustrate it better though.

[S.C]

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Except a practice mode has a tangible benefit. TIME. I've mentioned this several times with math to back it up. I've proven the benefits. That's not even going into the potential positives of having consumers look more favorable on the game.

It also has drawbacks though:
- The potential drawback of having consumers NOT look more favorable on the game, because not everyone agrees.
- The drawback of changing the experience for clearing a fight, to accomodate time-saving benefits.

It still is and always will be a matter of perspective, wether it is an improvement to the game or not. If it weren't for the same few people arguing in circles all the time (myself included by the way xD), this practice mode discussion would already have been burrowed in the depths of the community board, never to be seen again. Not that many people even care about there being a practice mode or not in the first place. The main reason this discussion has so many pages is because it's being kept artificially alive by us, throwing the same arguments at each other and wondering why the other side is unwilling to budge.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

How about telling me why you think a practice mode is bad for the game? We seem to be real short on reasons why it's bad. Maybe you have a solid reason that hasn't been discussed why we this feature shouldn't be added. I'm not unwilling to change my mind, but so far the arguments against it haven't been great.

The same could be said about those who are in favor. The arguments on both sides have already been explained over and over again. Of course arguments are going to run out at some point. That does not invalidate what has already been said though. This is not about naming more benefits / drawbacks than someone else.

You SAY the counter-arguments haven't been great. But you only say that, because you disagree with them. If you look at this objectively, both sides have made equally valid arguments. If you are waiting for something that makes you change your mind - that will never happen. Because there is nothing anyone can say to invalidate your opinion, the same way there is nothing you can say to invalidate theirs.

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by S.C:

Yes, this time it actually was directed at you ^_^. Also I just took those 5 minutes from your example for my own, but my point still stands if I replaced 5 minutes with say... 50 minutes.

Except you keep trying to frame this problem as a disagreement over 5 minutes when it's not. You didn't use 50 minutes you chose 5. Again you miss the point I was trying to make when I made that example. Which is a point YOU also made that agree's with me. The amount of time a journey takes doesn't effect the difficulty of the game. Which I used to counter point the guy before who said longer times make the game more difficult. Which is just not true as I previously pointed out.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

That being said no one has asked for this requested practice mode to also let people choose individual boss phases. The only request has been to start on a boss without having to go through a bunch of content they are already comfortable with clearing. Zone bosses are 6 fights before you can attempt them using the fastest way possible and the final boss is 18 fights before you can even attempt to learn it. I'm fine with doing a whole boss from the start even if the phase I'm having trouble with is the last part. It's still WAY less time than if someone was to start from the beginning. Maybe you got confused when I said version of the boss which does not mean the individual phases.

Originally posted by S.C:

You missed my point here. People who say those 50 minutes are important view the journey to the boss as PART of the boss, as if the boss had more phases.

This has been discussed earlier and the major takeaway was that a practice mode doesn't change this part of the game. That journey still exist. The requested practice doesn't not in any way lessen that journey. If you FEEL like it does you simply don't have to use it. You get a choice. Right now people that want a practice don't have that choice.

Originally posted by S.C:

You just said yourself, you are fine with having to redo a bosse's phases every single time, until getting back to the portion that causes you trouble. Should you not be fine with the following boss fight then:

Phase 1: boss spawns 3 random adds in succession for you to fight. Beating an add heals you a bit.
Phase 2: boss spawns another add for you to fight
Phase 3: boss spawns yet another add for you to fight
Phase 4: boss fights you directly. Upon beating phase 3 you get healed a bit.
Phase 5: boss fights you directly again.
Final phase: boss transforms into an animal, and fights you for the third time.

Because this is how Rabbit & Steel is structured in the eyes of someone saying that those 50 minutes of journey are important. For them there is no "staring at the screen for 30 minutes before trying again". For them it's "beating the earlier phases again, to get to the later ones".

You do see how adding a practice mode for phases 2-3 from my example would make for a different experience, right? This does NOT invalidate anyones wish for a practice mode, but it does highlight the main reason why not everyone is in favor.

Except this isn't how the game works. If it did you might actually have a point. The game does give you breaks between fights, items to select and a shops to spend resources on. Which I've said before is a great way to have designed the game. If it didn't have those features I wouldn't even be here.

It also wouldn't change the experience since when you start the game you still have to go through the entire process. The only difference is you would be more proficient at it. How you gain that experience doesn't effect the core journey. You still have to do the whole sequence for real.

Again if that's how someone feels about it that's fine. It doesn't mean it's the only way to think about it nor does it make it 100% correct. The problem is that this argument keeps being used and then the person never explains WHY they feel that way or why a practice mode hurts this aspect of the game for them. The best response has been about difficulty which I've tried my best to show isn't the case, but instead of trying to prove my point wrong I keep getting discussions about feelings and vision.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Except this point ignores everyone's complaint about being able to beat all the fights leading up to a zone boss and then struggling against the zone boss. Yes the fights leading up to the zone boss show off what attacks the zone boss will be using. While it's a good learning indicator for the mechanics used by the zone bosses they use them in completely different and more difficult ways. It doesn't matter how many times I've beated Saya because the puzzle sequences for Twili are completely different. There lies the problem. After beating Saya for the 10th time only to fail on Twili because it's that much more difficult you tend to get tired of fighting Saya and all the other lead up bosses. If only there was a way to get actual experience on the part I'm having trouble on without long delays between it. You yourself mentioned this so why are you making me repeat to you

Originally posted by S.C:

I honestly don't feel like I ignored it. My guess is, you missunderstood what I meant with "learning experience", because I was not taking about introducing mechanics to the player. What I meant is that clearing earlier fights is viewed as part of the journey. Part of the experience. I think the boss example I made above does illustrate it better though.

You're right I did misunderstand that. I'll try to ask for clarification in the future. If the point was about the journey I had already discussed that in previous post and in this one. A practice mode doesn't lessen the journey in any way.

[glass]

Originally posted by glass:

There is a mod which lets you force any fight. it's great for practice.

I stated this all the way back in page 2 but it seemed mostly overlooked.

The dev has stated their vision of the game, and they're unlikely to add it.

There is a way to practice fights unofficially. If you do not agree with the dev's philosophy, then perhaps use this option..

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by S.C:

It also has drawbacks though:
- The potential drawback of having consumers NOT look more favorable on the game, because not everyone agrees.
- The drawback of changing the experience for clearing a fight, to accomodate time-saving benefits.

It still is and always will be a matter of perspective, wether it is an improvement to the game or not. If it weren't for the same few people arguing in circles all the time (myself included by the way xD), this practice mode discussion would already have been burrowed in the depths of the community board, never to be seen again. Not that many people even care about there being a practice mode or not in the first place. The main reason this discussion has so many pages is because it's being kept artificially alive by us, throwing the same arguments at each other and wondering why the other side is unwilling to budge.

We already touched on this topic. Yes, you can't make everyone happy. If the dev wants to appeal to the minority or majority of players that's for them to decide along with all the aspects that go along with it. The fact is that this is the MOST requested feature. We don't have exact data on this which is something we've also already discussed. We only know what the dev has said about it, looking at responses here and the discord. Apparently this was highly debated in the discord before release, but I couldn't find any of those conversation histories because discord sucks. You will find people ask for it in the discord a lot though. There's not really a discussion about it though because discord isn't great for that. I disagree that most people don't care. It's not the most requested feature for nothing.

I wouldn't say we've gone full circle, but we're getting there. I'm pretty sure we would still see this pop up now and then. It's a niche genre so there's just not that many people here to talk about it. People keep bringing up things that have already been discussed or suggesting solutions that aren't feasible.

Originally posted by S.C:

The same could be said about those who are in favor. The arguments on both sides have already been explained over and over again. Of course arguments are going to run out at some point. That does not invalidate what has already been said though. This is not about naming more benefits / drawbacks than someone else.

You SAY the counter-arguments haven't been great. But you only say that, because you disagree with them. If you look at this objectively, both sides have made equally valid arguments. If you are waiting for something that makes you change your mind - that will never happen. Because there is nothing anyone can say to invalidate your opinion, the same way there is nothing you can say to invalidate theirs.

Correct and maybe they have a new idea or perspective that we can use to come to a conclusion. Instead they mindlessly attack my argument while not providing any opinion of their own on the matter at hand. All they said was that they basically agree with the dev. I've explained why I disagree with the dev, but they didn't touch that conversation on why I might be wrong. No one has. The best response I got was from you saying I should record my own footage. Which I agreed was a possibility, but they gave a very solid answer as to why that isn't a great solution. You then responded saying too bad that's just the way it is. Which doesn't provide any justification for why a practice mode shouldn't be added nor did you actually refute my recording video answer.

This is 100% about naming more benefits than drawbacks. Especially considering the only draw back has been my vision disagree's. A complete nonsense reasoning.

Yes the counter arguments haven't been great in my opinion. It's not just because I disagree with them it's because they either don't make sense, are based in a non quantifiable opinion or have been objectively show to be plain incorrect. Their opinions ARE valid, but they are NOT equal.

You 100% can invalidate someone's opinion. It's my opinion that the sun is green. A opinion that 100% can be invalidated. The problem is the dev's response wasn't based in fact. While I've given factual reasons why we should have a practice mode.

This is why we're not getting anywhere. We're no longer even talking about a practice mode. We're talking about human psychology. For the 3rd or 4th time. Which is a complicated subject even for experts which I assume you and I are not.

How about this. Why don't you list all the reasons against a practice mode and we will go through them one by one a final time. If you want I will do the same for the reasons for it.

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by glass:

Originally posted by glass:

There is a mod which lets you force any fight. it's great for practice.

I stated this all the way back in page 2 but it seemed mostly overlooked.

The dev has stated their vision of the game, and they're unlikely to add it.

There is a way to practice fights unofficially. If you do not agree with the dev's philosophy, then perhaps use this option..

This sounds amazing maybe link where this mod can be found and the name of it?

[S.C]

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Except this isn't how the game works. If it did you might actually have a point. The game does give you breaks between fights, items to select and a shops to spend resources on. Which I've said before is a great way to have designed the game. If it didn't have those features I wouldn't even be here.

Well. I tried to explain how people opposing a practice mode view the individual fights as ONE thing that needs to be done as a whole, the same way multiphased bosses work in many other games. Glad to see my visualization worked!

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Again if that's how someone feels about it that's fine. It doesn't mean it's the only way to think about it nor does it make it 100% correct. The problem is that this argument keeps being used and then the person never explains WHY they feel that way or why a practice mode hurts this aspect of the game for them. The best response has been about difficulty which I've tried my best to show isn't the case, but instead of trying to prove my point wrong I keep getting discussions about feelings and vision.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. There is no "100% correct" in this argument, and there never will be. I have explained many times why people feel this way, or why the ability to practice does change the experience. Difficulty is one aspect of it. Another would be the feelings you mentioned. Because clearing a zone on lunar feels way different if you have to go through the way it is now. For instance, for you it feels more tedious and annoying. Others like the feeling of pressure when finally getting back to where you died last time. Or the huge amount of relief when the fight is finally over. And having practice mode as an option tellig them "well don't use it, if you don't want to" does not solve the issue.

------
I am going to keep following this discussion. But I'll be honest. At this point its getting exhausting. I don't want to keep explaining. I'll just leave it be and hope for the dev to stay true to their vision and beliefs.

The inofficiall practice mod WOULD be a solution though, so maybe it will suffice for everyone.

[OgPZelda]

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

Lowering the time requirement makes the game easier. Opening spreadsheets and doing basic functions in excel is something you can easily learn to be proficient with theoretical perfect up time and itemization. You don't even need the mod tools to do this. I'm just saying, its possible with mod tools. You can do it yourself. You can organize a project. You've dedicated the time. Put forth the effort and start editing the wiki. I will start doing this myself once I can dedicate the time (two jobs).

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Lowering the time requirement can make a game easier, but not in the way implementing a practice mode would do so... I just want to fight a end zone boss or the final boss without spending 10-35 minutes to get there.

This is a non-argument and a concession.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

I find it odd that you're against a time saving feature considering how much you keep telling us about your two jobs. Wouldn't an implementation of a practice mode as I described in my last post benefit someone like you with less time to play?

I play at night, maybe 1 or 2 hours. The pace is fine for me. I've been learning with friends. I like playing the game, I want to play the game more.

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Why are you so obsessed with this game having a wiki?

I like it enough to have an easy look up for descriptions and lore. I don't want to have to be in game, and may not be able to be in game.

https://rns.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page This is the currently maintained page per the Discord. Has info for builds and rotations. Looks like the boss pages are empty. I'll probably start adding lore, dialogue, then maybe try to screencap patterns.

Edit Edit: There's also a thread in the Discord that has how items are calculated when used together, even the variables for luck and what they do.

[glass]

Originally posted by Elmdor:

This sounds amazing maybe link where this mod can be found and the name of it?

It is using the Reloaded II mod loader.
- download reloaded II
- add rabbit and steel.exe
- click the "download mods" tab
- download the mods "RNSReloaded" and "Steel Yourself"
You can change the battle in the 'configure mod' menu, you don't need to restart the game for it to take effect. Some mods says "limits online play". but it just means that people without modded clients can't see your lobby. You can still play modded stuff with others who has it.

Also check out permanent winds, and steelheart mods for a fun challenge.

[OgPZelda]

Originally posted by glass:

Originally posted by Elmdor:

This sounds amazing maybe link where this mod can be found and the name of it?

It is using the Reloaded II mod loader.
- download reloaded II
- add rabbit and steel.exe
- click the "download mods" tab
- download the mods "RNSReloaded" and "Steel Yourself"
You can change the battle in the 'configure mod' menu, you don't need to restart the game for it to take effect. Some mods says "limits online play". but it just means that people without modded clients can't see your lobby. You can still play modded stuff with others who has it.

Also check out permanent winds, and steelheart mods for a fun challenge.

This is also in the discord under #rabbit_mods (guess I should clarify, check the pins).

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by glass:

Originally posted by Elmdor:

This sounds amazing maybe link where this mod can be found and the name of it?

It is using the Reloaded II mod loader.
- download reloaded II
- add rabbit and steel.exe
- click the "download mods" tab
- download the mods "RNSReloaded" and "Steel Yourself"
You can change the battle in the 'configure mod' menu, you don't need to restart the game for it to take effect. Some mods says "limits online play". but it just means that people without modded clients can't see your lobby. You can still play modded stuff with others who has it.

Also check out permanent winds, and steelheart mods for a fun challenge.

Thank you I will look into this. Although I'd still prefer to not use 3rd party solutions.

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by S.C:

Well. I tried to explain how people opposing a practice mode view the individual fights as ONE thing that needs to be done as a whole, the same way multiphased bosses work in many other games. Glad to see my visualization worked!

Originally posted by S.C:

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. There is no "100% correct" in this argument, and there never will be. I have explained many times why people feel this way, or why the ability to practice does change the experience. Difficulty is one aspect of it. Another would be the feelings you mentioned. Because clearing a zone on lunar feels way different if you have to go through the way it is now. For instance, for you it feels more tedious and annoying. Others like the feeling of pressure when finally getting back to where you died last time. Or the huge amount of relief when the fight is finally over. And having practice mode as an option telling them "well don't use it, if you don't want to" does not solve the issue.

What solution does this not solve? Because telling someone they don't have to use a completely optional practice mode is 100% a solution that works. You going tell me seeing it hurts their feelings? I know you're going to circle argument me here so let me just preempt it by saying something I've already said again. A practice mode does not in any way diminish the feeling some would get from doing a full clear. You still have to full clear a run in one go even if you've practiced the bosses individually. That same tension exists because now you're doing it for real.

Originally posted by S.C:

I am going to keep following this discussion. But I'll be honest. At this point its getting exhausting. I don't want to keep explaining. I'll just leave it be and hope for the dev to stay true to their vision and beliefs.

The inofficiall practice mod WOULD be a solution though, so maybe it will suffice for everyone.

I've understood the point you've been trying to make. A point which isn't even originally your own. You're fighting against your own interested. We wanted the same thing. You've literally said some of the exact points I've been making in your very first post.

Originally posted by S.C:

As someone who started learning lunar recently, I would also love to have an actual practice mode - if only for enemies / bosses / patterns / phases I have already encountered on their respective difficulty.

The reason being, that often I die to patterns I fail to even understand. Dying to mistakes or to not being fast enough is fine. But dying and not knowing how to even resolve the mechanic that killed me feels harsh.

Arguably I could just open up a video on YouTube to study those patterns, or record my own footage, but having a practice mode would add the benefit of... well... being able to practice for myself and more often. Also it would remove external media as a "requirement" for safely studying patterns.

I 100% agree with Past S.C. You shouldn't be arguing points against me. You should be my ALLY. Even when the dev posted their thoughts on the matter YOU made a post speaking out against it. Stop trying to help the people that we BOTH disagree with. Let them come and fight their own battle.

I understand why this is exhausting you, but you have no one to blame but yourself. You keep bringing up the same circle argument I've answered several times. While at the same time ignoring any of my options to move the conversation forward or end it. I know there is no 100% correct solution we've gone over this. There is a BETTER solution and a WORSE solution though. Me and past S.C. both agree that having a practice mode is a BETTER solution to not having one.

I'll say this yet again. It's 100% fine for the dev to have a vision and not want to change it. It doesn't mean that their vision is without flaws. Not having a practice mode in this game is one of those flaws. If they don't want to add it because it's their vision that's fine. They can't say it's my vision and I think it would make the game worse while ignoring all the reasons it could make the game better or reasoning that finds faults in their own perception. It's either a hard line this is my vision or I think it makes my vision worse. It can't be both without opening up the topic for discussion. It's possible the dev doesn't know what makes their game good as I've tried to explain in my first post responding to them.

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

This is a non-argument and a concession.

Care to explain why? Seems to me like you're wrong yet again and can't come to terms with it.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I play at night, maybe 1 or 2 hours. The pace is fine for me. I've been learning with friends. I like playing the game, I want to play the game more.

I also like playing the game and will continue to do so, yet you seem to continue to ignore everything I say. For someone that complains about not having enough time you sure do love to waste everyone's time here in the forums.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I like it enough to have an easy look up for descriptions and lore. I don't want to have to be in game, and may not be able to be in game.

https://rns.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page This is the currently maintained page per the Discord. Has info for builds and rotations. Looks like the boss pages are empty. I'll probably start adding lore, dialogue, then maybe try to screencap patterns.

Edit Edit: There's also a thread in the Discord that has how items are calculated when used together, even the variables for luck and what they do.

Still going on about this wiki. A subject which has no relevance to a practice mode. Oh hey another discord plug as well. Hmm it's also about a topic that has no relevance. It's almost as if you have nothing of value to say.

Honestly don't bother replying. You lost all credibility as soon as you posted this.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

Originally posted by mino_dev:

This was a long rant, but that's what you get when you reply to my Twitter posts with angry Reimu pngs.

I am so sorry I was not trying to bait a reply from you, that was genuinely a self jab/meming myself since I was getting trash talked for posting here so much about it with friends.

I love your game and got like four people to buy it and 100% agree with all your design choices and I'm really grateful to mauvecow for putting it on the radar as well and I loved seeing Peridot play it and the Lunar race and I am buying the game for more friends right now.

Before you go can you post some more angry Touhou characters on twitter for me. You're clearly in way over your head here.

And for the record I read those post and no one was "trash talking" you. They poked holes in your bad arguments and you got upset about it. Try not to take everything so personally. It's ok to be wrong.

[OgPZelda]

Originally posted by Elmdor:

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

This is a non-argument and a concession.

Care to explain why? Seems to me like you're wrong yet again and can't come to terms with it.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I play at night, maybe 1 or 2 hours. The pace is fine for me. I've been learning with friends. I like playing the game, I want to play the game more.

I also like playing the game and will continue to do so, yet you seem to continue to ignore everything I say. For someone that complains about not having enough time you sure do love to waste everyone's time here in the forums.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I like it enough to have an easy look up for descriptions and lore. I don't want to have to be in game, and may not be able to be in game.

https://rns.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page This is the currently maintained page per the Discord. Has info for builds and rotations. Looks like the boss pages are empty. I'll probably start adding lore, dialogue, then maybe try to screencap patterns.

Edit Edit: There's also a thread in the Discord that has how items are calculated when used together, even the variables for luck and what they do.

Still going on about this wiki. A subject which has no relevance to a practice mode. Oh hey another discord plug as well. Hmm it's also about a topic that has no relevance. It's almost as if you have nothing of value to say.

Honestly don't bother replying. You lost all credibility as soon as you posted this.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I am so sorry I was not trying to bait a reply from you, that was genuinely a self jab/meming myself since I was getting trash talked for posting here so much about it with friends.

I love your game and got like four people to buy it and 100% agree with all your design choices and I'm really grateful to mauvecow for putting it on the radar as well and I loved seeing Peridot play it and the Lunar race and I am buying the game for more friends right now.

Before you go can you post some more angry Touhou characters on twitter for me. You're clearly in way over your head here.

And for the record I read those post and no one was "trash talking" you. They poked holes in your bad arguments and you got upset about it. Try not to take everything so personally. It's ok to be wrong.

Yikes. So uh, you want a reason why or for me not to reply? I'm not sure, you said both. So I guess I'll restate my opinion again even though the discussion is basically closed.

The reason why it's a concession is you're going back to wanting shortcuts when the developer graciously explained why they were against the idea with several examples. It's the journey not the destination! That is how I feel. You do not have to accept this perspective.

For me, reading a wiki and viewing gifs/mp4s are visual practice and learning. Yes, studying. Then it's an execution test. This method is also viewed as "short cutting" for some people. Personally, I find this perspective the most fun and rewarding. Plan and then execute.

If you want to learn by doing, it was already disclosed 3rd party tools exist (pinned in the discord channels). I honestly don't know what posts you're even refering to otherwise. I don't think anyone was trash talking anyone. I take no offense to anything you said. I'm quite stubborn and perhaps just as adamant as you to express opinions.

I also have been trying to offer alternative solutions (creating your own sims for raw data, or using your own screen shots). All of which were rejected, and thats ok. I'm not forcing it on anyone, and I see why you wouldn't want to.

I really don't think the argument of "achieving victory in a single run is more rewarding for a player" is a bad one. I don't think it's wrong to say someone who sits in a sim all day to win sullies (not slang, damages the purity of, not attacking someone) the achievements of others. Yes, its rather elitist and "holier than thou". I don't think theres any holes to poke there. It's my perspective. A harsh one.

I just have a lot of respect for teams that do full runs and synergize and find solutions and strategy. I want to document that and maybe expand on ideas at some point.

If you'd like to learn more about me, friend me on steam or Discord. I'm happy to talk with you more. I won't assist you with using and third party tools though. I'm only interested in cosmetic mods.

Good luck in your future lunar attempts! I hope to try it one day.

[Elmdor]

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

The reason why it's a concession is you're going back to wanting shortcuts when the developer graciously explained why they were against the idea with several examples. It's the journey not the destination! That is how I feel. You do not have to accept this perspective.

This is why I said you're in over your head. You can't even remember your own statements from the post I was responding to. I was responding to your incorrect statement about lowering the time requirement making the game easier. A response that you ignored because I was right. The rest of your quote was nonsense that doesn't even relate to this discussion. You can't even follow the conversation properly. Hence why you're in over your head.

So again you're wrong. I've never said I didn't want a short cut. What else would a practice mode be? You can 100% say a practice mode is a short cut and it would be a true statement. The conversation was about a shortcut being cheaty or not. Saving a several minutes before you can attempt a boss is a way different severity shortcut than looking up the exact fight mechanics on a youtube video. Where someone draws the line will always be one's own preference. If you want to go over the details again then by all means read my earlier post and quote me. Just like the other person we can keep going in circles as long you keep saying the same things.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

For me, reading a wiki and viewing gifs/mp4s are visual practice and learning. Yes, studying. Then it's an execution test. This method is also viewed as "short cutting" for some people. Personally, I find this perspective the most fun and rewarding. Plan and then execute.

Let me spell it out for you. I don't care about the wiki. It's never been relevant to the conversation. I don't care why you use a wiki. It doesn't matter. Half of this paragraph doesn't even make sense. Clearly in your mind the wiki will eventually be filled with all the boss mechanic and strategies to include video's. You even acknowledge it as a short cut people wouldn't agree with. So that's another point for me.
Saying plan and then execute is the definition of a practice mode and then doing a full run. Plan in the practice mode, execute on the full run. I already said this. Another point for me.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

If you want to learn by doing, it was already disclosed 3rd party tools exist (pinned in the discord channels). I honestly don't know what posts you're even refering to otherwise. I don't think anyone was trash talking anyone. I take no offense to anything you said. I'm quite stubborn and perhaps just as adamant as you to express opinions.

I also have been trying to offer alternative solutions (creating your own sims for raw data, or using your own screen shots). All of which were rejected, and thats ok. I'm not forcing it on anyone, and I see why you wouldn't want to.

Don't say this as if it existed all along. We're literally just finding out about this a few hours ago. I haven't even had time to look into it. It existing as a 3rd party solution is not a reason to add a practice mode into the game.

While I appreciate you trying to come up with alternative solutions at the end of the day they weren't realistic solutions. Not everyone has those skills to do that nor should you expect them to learn it.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I really don't think the argument of "achieving victory in a single run is more rewarding for a player" is a bad one. I don't think it's wrong to say someone who sits in a sim all day to win sullies the achievements of others. Yes, its rather elitist and "holier than thou". I don't think theres any holes to poke there. It's my perspective. A harsh one.

Ok so again how would a practice mode effect either of these points of view? It doesn't. It's fine to have those opinions and yes it's not wrong, but they are not good reasons to be against a practice mode. This is more my feelings get hurt and my vision nonsense.

It's ok to cheat the system entirely by watching a video, but it's not ok for someone to practice a specific fight? How does this make any sense? Why attempt to call me out on shortcuts and then say you have no problem using a much worse shortcut. Hence the holes in your arguments. This is basically an admission you're own opinion is wrong.

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

I just have a lot of respect for teams that do full runs and synergize and find solutions and strategy. I want to document that and maybe expand on ideas at some point.

What are you even talking about? How does this relate to the discussion about a practice mode? Can't a team find a solution in a practice mode?

Originally posted by OgPZelda:

If you'd like to learn more about me, friend me on steam or Discord. I'm happy to talk with you more. I won't assist you with using and third party tools though. I'm only interested in cosmetic mods.

Good luck in your future lunar attempts! I hope to try it one day.

Thank you. I appreciate the offer. I will consider it. Maybe the next time I do some hard multi runs I'll see if you're available. I haven't looked into that mod yet, but I'm usually pretty hesitant to use mods from discords.