Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
4 
Report this post
I say that, because the dev already made it very clear, that they do not want to add a practice mode a couple of posts earlier, and that if they did someday include one, then only because of capitulation.
There is no need to discuss it further. There are points favoring a practice mode, and there are points against one. All points are equally valid, and there will never be a solution that can make both sides of the argument happy. You can try and brainstorm a solution if you want to, but you will realize how impossible it is, because in this specific scenario both sides are mutually exclusive.
If you really do not want to record your own footage because it is too much of a hazzle, or you do not want to watch videos of other people clearing mechanics successfully, then that is a restriction you are placing on yourself. Then you will have to learn by playing the game. I am not saying this to anger you or anything. This is just how it is. There is no logical alternative.
I agree. You're not wrong here. The dev did say they wouldn't add a practice mode even if it makes the game better and if they did it would only be because they caved into demands. They are very adamant that they don't think it fits the game. If that's what they ultimately decide that's fine.
I don't agree that there's no reason to discuss it further. Even the developer acknowledges it might make it a better game, but still wouldn't do it. Isn't that an absurd line of thought? You can change something, anything to make it better, but decide not to just because I don't want to. If they are willing to listen then 100% it should still be discussed.
The developer put in a lot of work for this game. Started the business, learned the necessary skills and navigated any and all the hundreds other things. I'm trying not to be so cliche here, but this game is the devs baby as they say. So much time and energy was invested into it. They want it to succeed as would anyone so devoted.
Not to be so callous, but the dev isn't a perfect person. It's quite possible they are too invested into the game to clearly see something as a positive change. They made the game to their exact vision and for people to expect something to be changed that goes against this vision is nothing short of blasphemy to them.
It's a tale as old as time. This achievement, this project is perfect in their eyes. How can it not be after working so hard on it, but they will resist any change no matter how beneficial because in their eyes it's already perfect. In order to over come this resistance to change they need to hear opposing opinions.
Don't get me wrong this is all hypothetical. I don't know exactly whats in the developers mind. I could very much be wrong about that part, but as someone who genuinely likes the game and wishes to see it do well so I can get further installments I will gladly voice my opinion in the off chance it helps improve it.
I don't see it as putting restrictions on myself. I'd argue that recording video or looking up the strategies is cheating. I'm pretty sure most developers expect people to play their game and overcome it's challenges. No one recommends a new game by linking a 100% walk through guide on how to beat it.
People want a practice mode as a way to save time and prevent the game from getting stale by not having to repeat parts that provide no challenge anymore. If someone gets through the game faster because of it and moves on to another game then that's ok. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as they were satisfied with the experience I'd call that a win.
To be clear I don't take offense. I actually appreciate having a rational discussion in a steam forum. So thank you. We both know there are too many trolls and sycophants around nowadays.
I'm going to tackle this from another perspective as someone who has sensory processing difficulties, and look at it from an accessibility standpoint. I am aware the game already has something like "cute" mode for people who are complete beginners and are just learning bullet hells, or just want to play the funny rabbit game with friends. This can also include people like me.
But I don't want to just play cute. I want to learn and grow better. I want to "git gud" as is the mentality of many mmo and bullet hell players. There are specific areas and mechanics in the game that are extremely difficult for me to parse or understand. It is already difficult for me to learn, and the barriers in the first place are quite unforgiving. Adding the barriers of such disorders, and even the precedent of other mediums in the genres HAVING practice modes, I do not understand the complete and blatant disregard for people who actively want to be a part of your game's community and improve at their own pace and way of understanding things. (And yes, not every mmo is ff14, there are some bare minimum learning tools and conveniences in other games too!)
Yes, a video can help, but for me something doesn't truly sink in until I can try and understand it for myself actively. People learn and absorb information differently, and by actively denying that you remove a tool from player's hands to improve because of the focus on the "good ol' days".
I'm sure someone with colorblindness or even a full on processing disorder in general could tell you the same. There is a constant reminder throughout every facet of life that the world isn't made for people like me, and I don't even have the worst of it. I know this isn't a this game specific problem, but being told to either play an easy game, an easy mode of a game (if they have them, and let's be real they usually suck), or screw off is completely discouraging for those of us who want to and CAN have the experience others have with a bit of extra help and effort. It creates a certain kind of elitism that DOESN'T foster community- it fosters community IF you're the right type of person.
The dev has stated their intentions loud and clear. They do not want to compromise their vision, and make a worse game, just to appeal to a vocal minority. And I hope they never listen to the crowd demanding they water down their vision of the game to make it more "accessible" or "approachable" or any of the dozen buzzwords people use to champion destroying games to mass market them.
This is the problem. Discussing with someone who cannot, or does not want to understand perspectives from their discussion partners, is futile.
People who are against the implementation of a practice mode (including the dev) have thoroughly explained why they believe a practice mode will turn the game into something worse in their eyes.
You might not AGREE with them. That is fine. But being able to UNDERSTAND counter-points is required for a discussion to even be viable.
In this specific scenario however, it is impossible to find a compromise in the first place. There can either be a practice mode, or there can be none. The same way a window can only be open or closed, but not both at the same time.
There is valid arguments for both sides, and hence there is no reason to favor one side over the other. The dev already made up their mind, and their decision is perfectly valid.
People may disagree. But so would others if a practice mode was included. It is impossible to please everyone.
Wow. Have you tried joining the Discord? There's a community there with guides and discussion about everything... what's stopping you from asking for help? Just simple questions. "Hey I always get hit here" or "hey what is a good build".
This post seems like it's simply a manner of pride for you to figure out on your own. Which, again, is not the fault of the game or game design. This is the way you choose to play, so your frustrations are your own.
I think you're downplaying the time requirement way to much. Most people here seem to be saying they want to get better, but don't want to spend vast amounts of time to practice one phase because it's locked 10-35 mins into a run. Which is 100% a fault of the game design.
Yes, people want to put in actual effort into a game to feel that pride and accomplishment of over coming obstacles. I don't know why you're so against that. Asking people for the exact answer to a mechanic is quite literally the opposite of that.
From the start of this topic the main reason for this request has been I want to improve, but it takes too much time to practice. No one likes to have their time wasted unnecessarily.
A practice mode can solve this issue perfectly with very little if any downsides. The only reasons I've seen against practice mode so far have all been ground in personal feelings or responses downplaying other people wanted to get better.
So far there have been 20ish or so people for a practice mode and only 4 against. (Not that this is a democracy mind you.) In fact roughly 80% of the no posts have been you and you've also said you 100% agree with anything the dev does so you obviously have some kind of bias going on there.
I know it's a small sample size, but 75% of people saying they want this feature with lots of valid reasons backing it up should have the no's reconsidering their thoughts on the matter. Especially considering the no's responses have been not great in my opinion.
As a side note I did join the Discord just to check it out and Discord is a terrible place to gather information. It's so disorganized and takes way to long to find out specific info because everything is in one very very very long thread. Try searching Mattiand you get 725 results. Very little helpful information and a lot of the time people still don't get an answer that helps them. I am in no way trying to disparage the dev with the way they have set up their Discord. It's Discord itself that is the problem.
There are, at least as of the dev post earlier, 100k people playing this game. 20 of which actually want this enough to post here. Forums like this are always used for people to complain, because everyone else is usually busy, you know, playing the game.
Only the people that care about getting a Practice mode, are vehemently against it, or are bored enough to just read the entire forums are going to post here. Most people are going to see the title, not care, and just scroll by. Just like all the "Boy bunnies" threads. If you went by the numbers in those, you'd think the entire playerbase wants boy bunnies. Which couldn't be farther from the truth.
I am saying I CAN play this game. I don't think a practice mode in general makes these things easier to perform overall, just less of a time investment to GET TO to learn. You still ultimately must learn them and can't just coast through. Your playthrough still has to be well executed for you to clear, gain achievements, unlock trinkets etc. I'm not asking them to REMOVE anything and if it hurts people's fragile egos for being the one person who actually wants to bash their head into a wall and look down upon others who don't want to do the same: oh well, better not look at touhou practice tools then.
I am arguing from the perspective of seeing others say "actually, a practice tool would make people in the game MORE elitist" and I think it simply isn't true. I'm convinced you didn't even READ my comment from the perspective you're arguing from and just saw "accessibility" and foamed at the mouth.
That's a very watered down and distorted view of my point especially when I brought this up: getting guidance or watching videos is different from directly doing. If I want to test such strategies on a specific enemy, I still have to actually get there to do so- with a specific class, or build, or items. It's not about pride, it's about a realistic expectation of your playerbase and a level of review that will actually improve skill, not somehow make it less valuable. The opinions ranging from "no just suffer through it or quit" to "actually its your fault for suffering through it" are quite laughable in scope- which is it, then?
This is outside of the scope of the argument I made, but let's go a bit further.
Let's say they do add items, and levels and potions etc-
One of the things I'd very much like to know that would result from a practice room is whether certain bosses are even doable on lunar with certain classes/upgrades/items without a very small window for failure. On top of that a "what should I have done differently with this exact build?" is an absolutely unrepeatable situation unless you want to play the game 7000 times and remember every set you had. I believe this game has much more depth than many other rogue-likes (aside from BOI but that's a whole can of worms), and is much more randomized than mmos.
Especially from the aspect of it being a team-based game, ultimately I think a practice tool is warranted even outside of accessibility functions, as it is a useful tool for learning raid communication as well as other things. It could even help the dev since players can find bugs or items that aren't supposed to work the way they do, like in the lunar race.
Yes, and funnily enough the mmo community I'm in has the exact same sentiment on both these points. Discord is horrible for info gathering and yet it's the only form of forums people have, so information gets lost easily and can't be archived in other places. Even aside from that though, why would I watch someone else play the game and see what they do over and over when the fastest AND most fun way to learn is just doing it myself?
As a final note- normal, hard, and lunar all have altered attack patterns and information. Even if I wanted to make it "easier" to learn in any way, I simply could not, as the game is literally a completely different experience on each difficulty. Classes get stronger or weaker, items or other players can be the cause of your death, etc. With a game like dark souls, it has a fixed difficulty. Hell, with other roguelikes it does too. When you're combining genres like this, having the game be harder or easier from these elements, there are just so many variables that it's difficult not to argue for a practice tool even from a gameplay perspective because of the infinite amount of variation we see in this game.
This is coming from someone who has almost cleared hard on every class. I'm not just some rando who bought the game and played 3 minutes of it before deciding I don't like it.
But you do want to be pandered to. You want to change the game to suit your preferences. You want to pretend you're some white knight of accessibility, and use that as a justification to add a practice mode. That has nothing to do with accessibility, and to pretend otherwise is a falsehood. You simply don't want to put in the effort to get better at the game under the game's own rules.
And as for ACTUAL accessibility, those are always a great bonus to a game, sure, but to demonize a dev for not including them is entitled at best, and toxic at worst. Shaming a dev for not catering to every single potential issue under the sun and moon because someone might have x, y, or z issue preventing them from enjoying the game is pathetic. Does it suck that they can't play the game? Yes. But again. Not every game has to be for every player. Regardless of if that's a personal preference, or if there's other limiting factors. Stop forcing this toxic idea that everyone should be forced to let every single person experience things. It truly is okay to just NOT do a thing. You're not entitled to enjoy every single thing in the universe, and force it to change because you want it to be a specific way.
We can't say for certain what the people who don't communicate have as opinions. If people choose to not visit a place of discussion or to not participate then we can for all considerations disregard them as a statistic.
You're right in that a lot of people don't care. Hence why voting in real world systems tend to have low % of participation. The solution isn't to try and give them an imaginary voice, but to consider the people who ARE willing to voice their opinions.
I love your phrasing here:
As if all the people here wanting the feature are nothing but bored idiots looking to waste everyone's time and only the people against it are valid. Not a great way to validate your argument. It's also the exact opposite of the data we do have. Most people are vehemently FOR it.
Also casually saying forums are nothing for complaints is very disrespectful. There are lots of great idea's and valid discussions that happen all the time. To sum the forums up as nothing but complaints is nothing short of ignorance.
As for the boy bunny post I haven't read it and I don't care about. I don't need to read it because I understand what people are asking for from the title alone. You're right in that people who don't post either for or against don't care so why should their non opinion matter. If that feature gets added or not it doesn't effect me at all.
If instead there was a post talking about game balance or another feature I cared about or one that does effect me I 100% would read and comment if I have something I feel is worth saying. The point is people will voice their opinions on things they care about and not if they don't. The only realistic way to deal with it is to go with the information you do have.
If the dev feels there's not enough data from people discussing any topic here on the forum they are free to try and get more engagement in any way they desire. A poll on the discord for example. They could even set a minimum limit and say something like if they have less than 2000 people respond they will not change anything.
Is all criticism for anything not made hoping for change? Do we all just twiddle our thumbs and hope nothing happens? I don't understand the notion that I'm "demonizing" and "forcing" the dev to do something- me and others as individuals on a forum asking for a feature.
To be clear, I said "I'm going to offer a different perspective" because people have already provided the other reasons this feature is a good idea and I agree with them. I'm not white knighting, I'm giving my literal perspective and experience in a discussion about a game and genres that I care for very much, with you, who say things like "You're not entitled to enjoy every single thing in the universe, and force it to change because you want it to be a specific way." for the simple MENTION of a practice tool or other issues people might be facing or having in other circumstances, such as visibility issues or even better game design for those who have these external issues.
I literally never said I don't enjoy the game and yet you're saying it as though its wholly representative of my experience. You're shadowboxing a phantom of your own making, dude. It is ACTUAL accessibility to be mindful of the experience to those who have these issues, and be cognizant of what other games do. For example, the same reason shooters generally have the same button or menu layouts, or features- but that's kind of a whole other discussion that's off topic.
If it is wasted time for you, then... you can always opt to not do it? No one is forcing you to grind or to play the game on higher difficulties, if you consider it too much of an investment. Not every game is meant to be beaten by everyone.
You know why the time argument is flawed? Because wasting time is subjective to everyone. It can be applied almost everywhere. For someone else, having to clear all 4 Dungeons in a row might also be perceived as wasted time. What if they opened a thread, demanding or asking for a save feature, so they could reload from the start of the dungeon they died in, because they don't want to start from 0 again? If I take the argument and apply it to this, then people in favor should also be fine with a savegame feature, right? Because it is just saving time, and you'd still have to do everything to clear. But chances are, they are not fine with it, because such a feature would cross a line. Well... implementing a practice mode ALSO crosses a line. It's just a different one, but it is a line, the dev does not want to cross. There is little reason for making them do it regardless.
Now imagine 80% of players were in favor of a save feature. And only 20% were against it. Does this mean, the game should be changed to include one? Imagine what the game would become, if this majority stance were to be used to settle on features every single time. It would be a completely different game, and not for the better, specially if it overruled the dev's opinion.
Currently it's always the same arguments going around in circles. This will lead nowhere, because there is nothing anyone can say to convince someone or make them change their mind.
I agree with all of this. I don't know why you're telling it to me though. I literally never said any of these things. You're projecting. I personally don't think it's waste of time. I made a general statement about time that most people will agree with. My stance has always been it's a time saving feature that has very little downsides.
Of course time is subjective. That's the whole point of the practice mode. People value their time differently. Time being subjective doesn't make my argument flawed it's the basis for the argument. I value my time more than others might.
These are all imaginary arguments. I've never commented about any of these systems nor implied what my opinion on them would be. No one has discussed any of those features in this thread. If someone wants those features added they are free to open a new thread about it and the merits of it can be discussed in that location. Just because someone wants to save time with a practice mode feature doesn't mean they will automatically agree with every other feature that saves time.
Do you realize almost every game now uses a auto save feature so people don't have to replay entire sections. If people hated that feature it would not be so prevalent today. I'd challenge you to find me complaints that a games auto save feature was too good and people complained about not having to spend time redoing stuff, but I know it would be pointless because it never happens.
If I was a game developer and I wanted to improve my game and 80% of the people playing my game said they wanted a specific feature and why I would 100% take a deep look at implementing it. You also assume that all features a community want added make a game worse which is subjective. There's quite a lot of examples of devs making a game worse by adding features no one asked for while at the same time there are games that got better because a feature the community wanted got added. Even FF14 which I see mentioned a lot was SHUT DOWN because of how bad it was. Even after the game was brought back it's core gameplay was largely unchanged. It was all the small features and tweaks that were improved that turned that game around.
No one is saying that this feature MUST be added. I as well as others have simply provided evidence to contradict other peoples arguments against the feature while also making a case as for why we want such a feature. While it is possible for a majority of people to be wrong statistically they are right more often that not. It's ultimately up to the dev on how they want to handle things. I'm here to try and change their mind because I think this feature would genuinely benefit not only me, but lots of other players. Which the dev has stated is a possibility even though they admit it does't fit their idealogy of the game. If they said with certainty it wasn't happening non of these conversations would have happened.
Yes, we've just about hit all the major points you can discuss about this topic, but people keep added in new analogies so it continues.
I do find the comment about changing people's mind funny because earlier in this thread you were 100% for a practice mode. You seemed to have changed your mind when the dev made their post. So obviously it's possible to get someone to change their mind. I just need to find the right set of words to do it.
What will it take you get you back on the practice mode fence?
I changed my mind as soon as I read that the dev had already taken all of the arguments I had into consideration and made up their mind. They want their game to be this way. Everything that is going on here? They read it, and still made their decision. If that is their vision for the game's direction, then I'm fine with it. I found a workaround that works for me. It solves my problem without affecting anybody else, and it leaves the dev's vision of the game intact. For me that is the best possible outcome.
Regarding everytihng else? You misunderstood most of what I wrote. Understandable, since I often struggle with expressing my intent or thoughts in English. BUT I think it's fine, because in the end we will just have to agree to disagree. What I do agree on though, is that I should not have selected you out specifically, since I also addressed some stuff from other posts. That was unintentionally missleading. Not my brightest moment, I believe xD.