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My first run i started out with the generic 10 starting points and 1 starting lvl and only had 2 ape looking mobs spawn in the first section of the mob, then i abanadoned the run, started another, and this time i was given 17 starting talent points/lvls to work with and only had 2 ice beetle's spawn. Another time i was given 13 starting lvls and had 1 green dragon looking dude with 3 (possibly 4) creeper plants. Then another it just gave me the bare minimum of 10 talent points with 1 stat lvl and the map had 3 bramble priests and 3 creeper vines i think they are called.
So ya, definitely depends on what mobs spawn on the starting map and how many each of those mobs spawn and what cycle it is since cycle number effects each mobs stats and the abilities they get differently.
Personally, I've never bothered to, like... reroll for that. Especially higher cycle a couple extra points probably isn't going to be make or break when it's fairly doable to get through the starting map with basically no powers at all. Actually using something is just gravy, heh.
Just give it a go, worst that happens is a hobgoblin one-shots you and you're rerolling anyway, y'know? Sometimes you make it through, and once you've done that it's off to the races.
I think the maximum at any particular cycle is based on a formula using little more than the cycle number and RNG variables.
My wife and I just did about 90 minutes of testing, and I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with the mobs that spawn on the starting map. We charted scores of results, tracking the total number of points for each start plus the number of mob types appearing in the upper right (it's not realistic to pretend to count how many mobs of each type spawn in the fog of war). Our results show no correlation between number of points and number of mobs. In particular, the highest point totals (17) at cycle 24 were on maps showing one mob, while the lowest point totals (10 and 11) often showed multiple mob types.
One oddity popped up from the research, however. For reasons I have no idea how to explain, a character's class seems to have an impact on starting skill points, at least based on this small sample size. For example, using Apophis/Goblin/Bhagatar at cycle 25 we rolled and rolled and rolled until our fingers were bleeding and only got one score of 15 and nothing above that. In contrast, we switched to Apophis/Goblin/Apostle at cycle 24 and rolled 10 times and twice got a score of 17. Maybe that's just the RNG.
It would be nice to hear from the dev.
I am mostly interested if it affects the total accquirable points and hecne my build.
My numbers of mobs i got during my testing is not wrong nor is it a guess for most of them. The one time i typed 3-4 was because i couldint fully recall if it was 3 or 4 mobs that spawned 1 time that i counted due to the several times i restarted. Please do not assume/insinuate someone is pretending/lying/guessing in regards to their results as a whole all because they are not sure about one part of 1 test result for 1 individual test out of several done. /points at 20 year steam badge/multiple hard mode/hard to get steam achievements on a VERY public profile hiding nothing (cept my inventory of gems/coupons/cards/TF2 items, i find keeping that 1 part private keeps friend requests from randoms down to a min since their are bots that will try to scam you via fraudulent links/trade deals). Tis more then just for show good sir.
Skilled, vet gamers like myself have no issue's finding out things as simple as the amount of monsters one is fighting. Fog of war is VERY ease to work around and very rarely hide's the amount of monsters one is facing. Beside's roaming around to work around fog of war to get the total numbers on the starting map, you can also just pick the sorcerer class and simply just kill all the mobs and count each kill via the combat log. Or you can just count/kill as you go on and keep note of your starting points and just ignore any lvls gained via killing the mobs in the first area. So ya, its VERY realistic to figure out how many mobs of each type your facing in each starting area regardless of fog of war. Not hard at all. Multiple ways to get around fog of war. Only thing fog of war can do is hide the amount of monsters you get as soon as you spawn into the map and even then, you can get a lucky layout and have LoS to every monster on the field.
Also i just did some testing my self with your Apophis/Goblin/Bhagatar on cycle 25 and got different numbers in regards to the amount of starting talent/lvl points then you on the first 3 tries and out of all the testing i did, i did not get the same number twice in a row until the 8th try with each try getting different monster combinations with only 1 getting 1 type of monster and each try getting different amount of monsters. So you must have gotten very lucky to have gotten the same number every single time before your fingers started to "bleed".
In anycase, i do agree that it would be nice if the dev would be willing to drop us a line to see exactly how starting lvl is calculated, since regardless of all of our testing all of us have done with the results we have gotten and the conclusions we have come to, only he/she will know the exact answer due to them being the one (assuming its just 1 person that has worked on this game) that has coded this very fun gem of a game.
Edit: Apparently your an old time gamer yourself, older then me even mr bruce (I read your very first post on steam from 2017 just now, guessing your 70+ now due to claiming to have played a pc game back in the mid 60's and stating you were in your 60's then and its been 7 years since that post and you only got 3 pages worth of posts in total so was not hard nor did it take too long to come across the info). Still, one would think with how long you have been around for, you would know of a way/figure out a way to find the number of mobs on the first map section regardless of fog of war, since i, someone younger, was able to do so rather easily (wont give my exact age for security reasons, but im over the age of 35 but not of the age of 50 yet).
Only took me about 30 extra seconds to tally the number of mobs before each restart (give or take 15-30 more secs more depending on the size of the map and if the mobs were melee or ranged and if the amount was large) when i did the bulk of my testing yesterday. Also did a bit more testing just now though for the hell of it, and the one constant i keep coming across was that every time i have ice beetle's spawn on the map, regardless of class, i get 14 starting talent points at the min. Granted that could just be the number i keep getting via RNG.
In anycase this is the last timbit of stuff ill toss into this post for between me, you and others that have done testing, the 1 thing we can all agree on most likely is that for best chance of success, you most likely wanna re roll until you get at least 16-17 starting points to work with and if you want more of a challenge then go with less points then that or go with what your given when you start.
Back to binge watching the rest of the new justice league animation dc released (its a trilogy called justice league crisis among infinite earths, not the best but not the worst), its not as good as flash point paradox but its decent none the less (if your into the dc universe stuff, STRONGLY recommend the flash point paradox animated movie, lots of death, blood and violence which is not common among alot of dc animated stuff, tis meant for us older adults). The voice acting is the only thing that could have been done better, but it is tolerable (for both crisis and flash point paradox).
Gosh, I'm sorry to see you protesting so hard. I've run hundreds of tests on this rather nerdy question and, frankly, I don't think even the most skilled gamer in the world would actually have the patience to run around to count the mobs in the fog of war on every opening map. The fact that you did so, as you report, testifies to truly Herculean dedication.
Unfortunately, I think all of that effort was a Sisyphean waste of time, because I am now absolutely convinced that the number and variety of mobs has nothing to do with the number of starting points.
Instead, as I speculated before, I think it's based on a formula that has only one variable: the cycle number, which is modified by the RNG and some loops that create a stepwise sinelike curve.
In other words, at cycle 1, the maximum IIRC is 10. Every few cycles the maximum rises a bit until it reaches 17 at about cycle 21 to 24 (I wish I had written this all down carefully).
From cycles 1 through 24, the maximum possible number of starting skill points was steadily rising, in a stepwise fashion (by stepwise I mean it would be 13 for a few cycles, 14 for a few more cycles, and so forth). I thought it would keep going like that all the way to the end at cycle 32.
However, you hit a HARD WALL at cycle 25, which is my current level. At that level (whatever your deity/culture/class combo) I think you can reroll a million times and never get a total above 15.
Mobs have nothing to do with it. And character class has nothing to do with it (as I speculated in one place above).
I predict that on the road to cycle 32 the maximum will now stay at 15 or perhaps even go down. After all, the dev says the game is intended to be played on cycle 1.
Interesting discussion. It would be great to hear from the dev.
How much does the starting state matter?
Do the extra points get lost thanks to xp scaling? Or do you actually get to be higher level at the end of the cycle too?
I'm also pretty fond of the variability going on, but how much of an outlier those imps are is genuinely pretty noticeable, heh.
... though if it was adjusted, it'd probably be nicer to just bring everything else up to their level, ha. Imps in the first few levels make the first tower easier, but it doesn't guarantee being able to beat it, so it doesn't feel like they're an instant-win RNG blessing, y'know? Just feels like everything else is a little lackluster in comparison :V
Ulfsire, it's good you stopped by, but that post is not clear.
The debate here was mainly between one side that argued that the main variable that set the number of starting points was mobs in the first zone, while I argued in opposition that the only main variable was cycle number plus some randomness.
Your post seems to confirm my side of the argument, but in a way that is fuzzy about two things.
First, the original debate here is about whether the mobs in the starting zone affect skill points at the START of the game, as the OP asked. Your post seems to confirm my contention that they don't. However, you then wander off to talking about how lucky it is to draw Withered Imps at the start. That's irrelevant to the question! That only affects skill points at the END of the game's first level. You blew past this distinction, but it's right at the heart of the whole long nerdy argument here.
Second, while your post confirms my impression that the key variable is cycle, which you express as "glory," your post does not explain my empirical evidence that cycle 25 is a "hell level" where you hit a hard wall.
As I explained a couple times in this thread, my data shows starting points generally rising in a stepwise, sinelike progression from a maximum of 10 at cycle 1 to a maximum of 17 at cycle 24. But then at cycle 25 you hit a wall, and you can reroll thousands of times with any culture/class/deity combo and NEVER get a score above 15. (I don't know yet what the data is for cycles 26 to 32, but I predict it will stay level at 15 or even decline.)
You explained the calculation by giving the pseudocode "totally random, with starting glory multiplied by random 2 to glory level". I'm not the greatest programmer in the world, but I've learned to code in 7 languages, and I can't figure out how that pseudocode can possibly explain the results I see.
Could you please share the actual code?
specifically, "mobs" don't effect your starting xp boost at all, you only get experience from enemies when they die
after cycle 24 (referring to your cycle 25) I made enemies keep scaling but xp not, just to make it an added layer of cycle-difficulty (these last 8 cycles were added for the full release, the previous max was 24)