If this game is a "rogue-like," then so is...

[Jesse Dylan]

I'm getting sort of annoyed by all the "rogue-likes" lately. Not that I dislike them, mind! I am hopelessly addicted to this game, perhaps even in love with it. Yes, I will say it. I love FTL. I love others, too, like Desktop Dungeons, and, yes, even though I get tired of hearing "rogue-like" over and over... I like rogue-likes. Rogue-likes. Hate the word, love the games.

BUT, you can almost call anything "rogue-like." What makes FTL a rogue-like, the luck? The chance? The hardness? The having to make do with what you have, perhaps dying, perhaps winning, and either way playing again?

If that's the definition, then X-COM is also a rogue-like, really, as is Civilization.

I know the real problem is "genre" in general. Thank you for reading my thoughts.

[David]

Another genre-related thread? Well, it's different to the other one.

Anyway, it has random maps and permadeath? but yeah I wouldn't really say it was like other rogue-likes that I've seen, at all. I don't think you can really put FTL in a genre, it's almost.. some word beginning with s that I forget.. meaning new genre. So instead it's a best-fit use of terms.

I think that's part of the basic definition of rogue-likes anyway, random levels and permadeath (and unids I guess, unidentified items). XCOM isn't a roguelike even in ironman mode because game over isn't handled in the same sense as permadeath in a roguelike, Civ isn't a roguelike for the same reason- well besides that both games are recognised under a different genre in the firstplace. Turn-based blah blah.

Just call FTL a dungeonless roguelike-like with an action spacey theme and pre-identified items and be done with it, it doesn't need a genre really :P

[New Moon On Monday]

Basically, a Roguelike game is a game that looks and plays similarly to the 1980 video game Rogue. The history is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike

I think the main factors that make FTL a Roguelike are:

- The aesthetic look of the game. It is 2D top-down; the ship maps are tile-based; spite-based characters.
- The extent to which the maps, enemies, and loot are randomly generated.
- Permadeath.

[Ray Robertson]

Well, I think Rogue was maybe the first rogue-like or one of the first anyway.

Me may want to call FTL the first FTL-like. :)

[slappy_d0]

I thought minesweeper was the first rogue-like.

[Tealtyr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av rrobertson1:

Well, I think Rogue was maybe the first rogue-like or one of the first anyway.

Me may want to call FTL the first FTL-like. :)

Rogue was maybe the first rogue-like? Seriously?

[Ray Robertson]

I have no concrete evidence.

[Mazey]

According to this[en.wikipedia.org] the first Roguelike was Beneath Apple Manor which came out two years before Rogue.

[Torim]

A roguelike is a game in which, in my opinion, death is quick to come by, and neither are they very long, but require repeated playthroughs to beat properly. Each run can be different from the last by the will of RNG. RNG is a deciding factor, sure, but it falls upon the player to handle the cards he has been dealt.
RPG elements are heaviliy mixed in roguelikes it seems (trait passed on from the DnD game parent, Rogue). The fact that no save scumming is possible is also a point. (though it can be done, it is tedious and... jarring to do).
The whole concept boils down to procedurally generated maps, no save scumming, sometimes the most hellish of RNG and RPG character mechanics. People like em' (and me) because it's (hopefully) a new challenge each time (but, since events are limited, the experience gets dilluted each time).

It seems as though the concepts of the genre are evolving outside of it's origins. Rogue, was, if I think I read about correctly, a dungeon crawler. What we are probably seeing is the same phenomena of the DOOM-clone naming, though in a less derogative way. People don't call FPS doom clones anymore do they? But they did before the genre expanded, because, Doom was at the time, the pioneer.

X-com could be considered a rogue-like, but only if played on Ironman mode. This option ensures there is no coming back (though this may not be enough, the maps are not procedurally generated, but the enemies are, thus limiting the amounts of randomization that occur)
Civilization is in a different genre, it is a strategy turn based game of the four X genre. (e"x"plore, e"x"pand, e"x"ploit, e"x"terminate).

In time, the term "roguelike" will be replaced by "Procedurally Generated <game type(tbs, fps)>

[Tealtyr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Mazey:

According to this[en.wikipedia.org] the first Roguelike was Beneath Apple Manor which came out two years before Rogue.

It may have been the first game, looking back, to fit in the genre, but Rogue is the first Rogue-like, since the term did not exist before that. Rogue is the first game to be called a Rogue-like.

[Swordmouse]

Permadeath (no reloads) and a high degree of randomization/procedurally generated maps are pretty much required, so FTL more or less fits the bill. Strategy game with roguelike elements or roguelike with strategic elements, take your pick.

XCOM doesn't really qualify even on ironman mode because the maps stay the same and you can't really call the alien invasion that happens every 5 minutes a randomized encounter. I think we can all agree that a game should be categorized as part of the genre it most strongly identifies with, and that clearly makes XCOM a turn-based squad tactics game more than it does a roguelike.

[FDru]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Chameilio Estevez:

Permadeath (no reloads) and a high degree of randomization/procedurally generated maps are pretty much required

That's basically the definition I've always accepted. There are many other aspects that can be added while still staying roguelike-ish, like random loot, RPG leveling systems, etc. But the most important parts are the random level/world generation and permadeath.

[Jesse Dylan]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ᕕ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ᕗ:

Rogue is the first game to be called a Rogue-like.

Buh-wha?? Rogue wasn't called a "rogue-like," though. That's like saying Steam is Steam-like. Steam is only Steam-like because it's Steam.

I agree with some of the D&D-influenced definitions above. If we leave that out, and the procedural generation out, then 90% of the NES library could be considered rogue-like (and probably would be by modern buzzword standards).

[Tealtyr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Jesse Dylan:

Opprinnelig skrevet av ᕕ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ᕗ:

Rogue is the first game to be called a Rogue-like.

Buh-wha?? Rogue wasn't called a "rogue-like," though. That's like saying Steam is Steam-like. Steam is only Steam-like because it's Steam.

I agree with some of the D&D-influenced definitions above. If we leave that out, and the procedural generation out, then 90% of the NES library could be considered rogue-like (and probably would be by modern buzzword standards).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
"genres"
"rougelikes"

[Circenn]

I cringe when I see people citing wikipedia. This topic is full of it. Does no one these days know the wikipedia can not be 100% trusted for info?? That site can be edited by anyone, at any time.

[Drain]

What most of them are ignoring is the word rogue. I think it should only describe a game that actually allows you to be a rogue, that is, make moral decisions to be good or bad.(Hence the word, ROGUElike) Most of the games putting this label on themselves do nothing of the sort, as if they've forgotten what the word means. Since when does the word "rogue" have to do with randomized maps or perma death? It's not a word that describes an environment. It's a word that describes a characte. You would never call a cliff or road a rogue, but you'd certainly use it to decribe a person.

My case is that FTL is a "Roguelike" because it has moral decisions, not because of any of the other things people are crediting it for. Most putting the label on themselves are just creating confusion as to what it should mean. Dragon Age is more Roguelike than most of the games using the label; it had moral decisions and allowed you to be good or evil, but it isn't even in the catagory on Steam. My conclusion is that no one is in agreement about what it means, so you may as well ignore it. It's like a developer saying their game is "good", it's nothing more than an opinion and most people may flat out disagree and call the game garbage.

"Roguelike" is just not a genre, and people trying to force it to become one just by slapping it onto their game won't make it so. I view it only as the ability to make moral decisions in a video game, and most of them that do this don't have this phrase anywhere near them, while games that don't do it have the phrase on them for other, largely irrelevant, reasons. Some people want this to be a genre for some reason, but most games under this already fall into other regular genres(ie RPG, Space Sim, Platformer), so I don't think it'll ever be so. It'll just be a convolution tag that people put on their game, never confirming to a logical definition.