Adding trash oils to the item pool is not great

[Skyleaf]

So I like new content and more content but these oils are mostly god awful making it even less likely to find useful ones. Almost all of them need significant buffs to be useful on most guns.

[Wub]

I sorta agree and disagree. a lot of the new oils have different maluses from the existing ones that help balance costs, eg. a little -20% reload speed here and a little -30% bullet speed there isn't a big problem (probably) for the raw damage bonuses you get, especially compared to a lot of previous maluses like move speed.

on the other hand, if we keep getting more oils I'd like some kind of system to at least kinda guarantee an oil I'm looking for like, I dunno, trade in 3 projectile oils to get 1 projectile oil of a different sort.

[Neon]

Kevin definitely needs to start selling more oils per reset, and not these random oils which I'm franky not even sure why they exists.

[Mr.Zontikov]

also there will be great to add something to purge oils and scrolls (i'm seeking for another one fisk more than week)

[Xhaleon]

Most oils before the update were already trash so it is definitely an important consideration now that there are more. Enemies are best dealt with from far away so anything that cripples that range or just doesn't offer anything more than +damage is simply a downgrade. The only new ones that are useful for niches are the -RPM ones to let you have a more controllable automatic weapon, or the +Velocity ones to combine with Rocket Launcher for a USABLE ghetto boltgun (still worse & less practical than just using Explosion and +damage).

The mystery oils have zero value within the current system where you can't remove the enhancements because the likelihood of you receiving an "enhancement" is extremely high, gimping your gun forever. This kind of item would make sense in a game where you constantly find copies of a decent weapon and can afford to experiment, but decent weapons are rare so that is simply not an option. The game needs a different loot workflow for anyone to take mystery oils seriously.

[Mr.Zontikov]

Originally posted by Xhaleon:

Most oils before the update were already trash so it is definitely an important consideration now that there are more.

idk, i have high dps autohotgun and without second recoil supressing oil it's gonna be useless

[Skyleaf]

I think a lot of people might not realize this: DMG is way better than fire rate, reload speed or any other stat for a lot of the guns. Why? Dmg makes you kill enemies faster, needs LESS AMMO, you have to reload less, and it can lead to ez onetaps on most guns with the right oils. That is why stats like reload or RPM have to have HUGE stats vs raw dmg oils. E.g. 50% reload speed, 40% fire rate etc.

[Mr.Zontikov]

Originally posted by Skyleaf:

I think a lot of people might not realize this: DMG is way better than fire rate, reload speed or any other stat for a lot of the guns. Why? Dmg makes you kill enemies faster, needs LESS AMMO, you have to reload less, and it can lead to ez onetaps on most guns with the right oils. That is why stats like reload or RPM have to have HUGE stats vs raw dmg oils. E.g. 50% reload speed, 40% fire rate etc.

bosses + crussader = farm machine

seems there are no limits for crusader scroll, so you can stack +200% per 40 round mag of duhar and a minuite later get +2000% and get another weapon like impala for .50 with toxic lobotomy (800*4*stacked)

[Wub]

Originally posted by Skyleaf:

That is why stats like reload or RPM have to have HUGE stats vs raw dmg oils. E.g. 50% reload speed, 40% fire rate etc.

Yeah, feel that. Most oils just don't do enough to beat out damage. RPM needs multiple beefy weapon stats to function- recoil, ammo, durability, whereas damage is the opposite. weirdly I think velocity is in a better place 'cuz you can get 200% velocity boost in a single oil which can offset multiple stacks of the bullet drop malus, and those give much higher returns per oil- especially with higher calibers.

[UnreasonablySaucyConcrete]

I feel like a lot of these oils are mostly for niche builds and uses. For example, I found a "Double Lock" oil with a +35% reload speed boost and a -25% RPM debuff.

What is this oil useful for? Single shot guns, and really only single shot guns because the RPM debuff doesn't lower a single shot gun's DPS and the reload speed boost has a greater effect on the DPS and handling than it would a magazine-fed gun.

I agree that with the sheer amount of oils now we need a way to guarantee or at least up the chances of finding the particular stat oils we want. Something like a purchased effect provided by one of the NPCs before a run that buffs the chances of the oils in the run being a particular stat?

This would also incentivise people to farm other zones instead of the caves, because starting from the town you can keep going all the way to the castle (or forest now?) which will net you more oils before returning to the church upon which you'll need to repurchase the effect to farm more oils.

[Neon]

Originally posted by Skyleaf:

I think a lot of people might not realize this: DMG is way better than fire rate, reload speed or any other stat for a lot of the guns. Why? Dmg makes you kill enemies faster, needs LESS AMMO, you have to reload less, and it can lead to ez onetaps on most guns with the right oils. That is why stats like reload or RPM have to have HUGE stats vs raw dmg oils. E.g. 50% reload speed, 40% fire rate etc.

Agreed
DMG> pretty much everything else

one exception i'd add is -spread oils, since missed projectiles=missed damage so for builds with lots of projectiles and spread I really like dead center oil if I can deal with the recoil (or it's not an issue)
I do wish more usable -spread oils existed (maybe new ones are there but I haven't found them yet) since immo the only usable ones are Dead center and maybe Plinker, the rest have maluses that are NOT proportional to the gain they give, or the bonuses are too small for most situations (-0.3 has never been enough to make a noticable difference in any builds i've made)

They REALLY gotta buff a lot of the oils that don't directly affect damage (dmg/dmg%/multishot), probably by at least 50 or more %.

[Xhaleon]

Originally posted by Neon:

one exception i'd add is -spread oils, since missed projectiles=missed damage so for builds with lots of projectiles

Personally prefer having at least some level of spread when it comes to shotguns, those forest crows aren't going to hit themselves. And the meta rifles don't need more accuracy beyond a -0.75 muzzle. Maybe if they add an armor or flat damage resist system later on to penalize multishot then a Tandem or Gemini Oil wouldn't be the most powerful first oil to apply.

[Neon]

Originally posted by Xhaleon:

Originally posted by Neon:

one exception i'd add is -spread oils, since missed projectiles=missed damage so for builds with lots of projectiles

Personally prefer having at least some level of spread when it comes to shotguns, those forest crows aren't going to hit themselves. And the meta rifles don't need more accuracy beyond a -0.75 muzzle. Maybe if they add an armor or flat damage resist system later on to penalize multishot then a Tandem or Gemini Oil wouldn't be the most powerful first oil to apply.

yeah, the meta build rifles might not need -spread, but even since I started embracing boomstick, two time and careless splitter oils I value the -spread (basically justdead center since the rest are either too weak or the downsides are too great) alot. the potential damage is very high if you manage the downsides properly.

[Wub]

I've gotten into suppression oil, which at most ever requires a suppressor (ho ho). goes to show tho that no matter what you're doing a -.3 spread ain't ever gonna beat out suppressor/dead center/random damage oils.

[Neon]

Originally posted by Wub:

I've gotten into suppression oil, which at most ever requires a suppressor (ho ho). goes to show tho that no matter what you're doing a -.3 spread ain't ever gonna beat out suppressor/dead center/random damage oils.

yeah, suppression oil gotta be the next big thing imo. I've been saving the one I found till I find another rektor for a "static" HMG build, but the oil looks very promising.

[Wub]

get mosquito oil too, that stuff's great fun for spraying. I slapped some on a ferryman to make a 95% ammo reduction .50 automatic rifle. high caliber also gets hurt less by speed reduction.