Flaws with the thief games?

[bill_.]

So I've only played the three thief games in the last two years. And honestly I found that the game really hasn't aged that much at all, besides the graphics. I suppose the biggest problem with them is the AI. But I suppose as far as a "perfect" game goes, the theif game are one of the few series that I would consider close at achieving that "perfect" game nonsense.

So curious, what do you think would make the thief games better, or anything that hasn't aged as well? AI is the only thing I can really think of, don't care that much about graphics.

[Tavman (4)]

Here is a list of things that Thief could improve on.

I agree that the AI needs to be fixed. One good example is trying to pickpocket the arrows off those guards who are having that argument on their respective balconies. It was a nightmare just to wait and hope they don't continue to detect you even after the fight is over. Very frustrating.

Lockpicking also needs to be fixed. It is such a time consuming exercise just to wait for a click (or worse wait till the next part of the lock is finally opened like in Thief Deadly Shadows)

Better escape sequences - after completing all of the other objectives most of the time your escape sequence is just a basic "find the nearest door" or "waltz to the start point after knocking everyone down". There should be an additional challenge in this.

Reduce the waste of space - particularly what you see in the First City Bank and Trust mission. So you create a huge mission but you cannot explore all of the areas due to the patrols and environment. For the player, it doesn't allow them to appreciate the time it took to make the mission.

Obscure items and pickpockets (ties in with the waste of space point) - Blackmail I believe is the worst for this. So if I want the total pickpocket count, I have to go through every nook and cranny (adding another 1/2 hour to the total mission time) to find them but if I check a guide to see if there is anything I missed it isn't reported. In other words leave the items and pickpockets in logical places and leave the other places for exploring and (as the previous point states) appreciating the hard work that has been put into the mission.

[bill_.]

Originally posted by Tavman (4):

Here is a list of things that Thief could improve on.

I agree that the AI needs to be fixed. One good example is trying to pickpocket the arrows off those guards who are having that argument on their respective balconies. It was a nightmare just to wait and hope they don't continue to detect you even after the fight is over. Very frustrating.

Lockpicking also needs to be fixed. It is such a time consuming exercise just to wait for a click (or worse wait till the next part of the lock is finally opened like in Thief Deadly Shadows)

Better escape sequences - after completing all of the other objectives most of the time your escape sequence is just a basic "find the nearest door" or "waltz to the start point after knocking everyone down". There should be an additional challenge in this.

Reduce the waste of space - particularly what you see in the First City Bank and Trust mission. So you create a huge mission but you cannot explore all of the areas due to the patrols and environment. For the player, it doesn't allow them to appreciate the time it took to make the mission.

Obscure items and pickpockets (ties in with the waste of space point) - Blackmail I believe is the worst for this. So if I want the total pickpocket count, I have to go through every nook and cranny (adding another 1/2 hour to the total mission time) to find them but if I check a guide to see if there is anything I missed it isn't reported. In other words leave the items and pickpockets in logical places and leave the other places for exploring and (as the previous point states) appreciating the hard work that has been put into the mission.

Interesting points. I feel like the guard's bad AI is more highlighted when your not playing as the game was intended. Seems like when I'm ghosting a level, they work pretty much perfectly.

I actually like the lockpicking system, since I thought the whole point was that it was suppose to take up time and you had to plan it out well to avoid being caught.

Curious, what part of thief do you think has aged the worse? Besides graphics :)

[Tavman (4)]

It's mostly the graphics. The rest is mainly design tweaks and fixes. After playing the new Thief I realised that so much more could be done to make lockpicking more intuitive rather than waiting for the square or triangle lockpick to do its bit.

The guards AI is a little frustrating and the fact that the mechanics are hidden makes it difficult to determine what mistake had been made. Again the weakness of those mechanics were exposed when trying to steal all the arrows from those guards having that argument on their respective balconies (of course you can ignore it if you don't want the pickpocket count).

Return to the Cathedral is probably the only mission in the original Thief I found that you shouldn't properly ghost unless you want to break the storyline. I have seen stories on how this was achieved and I haven't been impressed.

[bill_.]

Originally posted by Tavman (4):

It's mostly the graphics. The rest is mainly design tweaks and fixes. After playing the new Thief I realised that so much more could be done to make lockpicking more intuitive rather than waiting for the square or triangle lockpick to do its bit.

The guards AI is a little frustrating and the fact that the mechanics are hidden makes it difficult to determine what mistake had been made. Again the weakness of those mechanics were exposed when trying to steal all the arrows from those guards having that argument on their respective balconies (of course you can ignore it if you don't want the pickpocket count).

Return to the Cathedral is probably the only mission in the original Thief I found that you shouldn't properly ghost unless you want to break the storyline. I have seen stories on how this was achieved and I haven't been impressed.

I hate Return to Cathedral with a passion, probably my least favorite mission in the first three thief games. I know people love that mission, but damn I rather play Thieve's Guild anyday than Return to Cathedral.

Haven't played the new thief, heard bad stuff about it, but is it similar to chaos theories lockpick system?

[Tavman (4)]

Never played Chaos Theory unfortunately but I can tell you it is similar to Thief Deadly Shadows where you rotate the lockpick to find the sweet spot but instead of waiting for it to automatically unlock you hit the button again to unlock it. There are videos out there if you want to see what it looks like.

Unfortunately Return to the Cathedral is actually one of my favorite missions although I admit the broken stairs glitch is perhaps one of the worst, most frustrating bugs I have ever encountered in any game I have played.

[spiritman]

Originally posted by Tavman (4):

Lockpicking also needs to be fixed. It is such a time consuming exercise just to wait for a click (or worse wait till the next part of the lock is finally opened like in Thief Deadly Shadows)

Better escape sequences - after completing all of the other objectives most of the time your escape sequence is just a basic "find the nearest door" or "waltz to the start point after knocking everyone down". There should be an additional challenge in this.

Reduce the waste of space - particularly what you see in the First City Bank and Trust mission. So you create a huge mission but you cannot explore all of the areas due to the patrols and environment. For the player, it doesn't allow them to appreciate the time it took to make the mission.

Interestingly enough, those are all the things that Thief 2014 tried to fix, and IMO it did a pretty good job on them.

[Tavman (4)]

Yet somehow they implemented some of the worst design features I have ever seen in a Thief game. Some examples include the rope arrows and where to fire them, the fact that some chapters are so linear they could have been altered to offer some exploration opportunities and also the fact that many sections of each chapter are so small and focused you never realise and therefore never appreciate the size of the mission.

[😎 𝓣𝓪𝓯𝓯𝒆𝓻𝔀𝓸𝓬𝓴𝔂 😎]

Play Deadly Shadows and the Dark Mod for an idea of how the core gameplay could be improved.

The AI needs more than 4 stages of alertness. Currently it goes straight from commenting without turning to look, to searching with weapon out. It needs 2 intermediate stages where it turns to look and where it walks around inquisitively without weapon drawn. Furthermore AI don't work together and they cheat when searching for you, by knowing your exact location and slowly moving towards it. In addition, they don't detect you when they contact you and can never hear you running on stone or wood (while marble and metal, gravel are waaay too noisy). Their combat code is also extremely simple and they can't climb obstacles and ladders.

Blackjacking is OP. I think the Dark mod and Thief 3 went too far, such that it felt clunky, in reversing this. Blackjacking should only be possible on the head and neck area, but i think you should be able to do it from the front and to do it on civilians who have detected you (not guards in combat with you though).

About the waste of space, I don't want them to make missions easier, smaller or anything. I do think the maps could do with more details and fewer empty rooms. I think this was caused by time and disc space constraints in both games.

Equipment could be optimised and improved. We need a lantern or candle like in TDM. Flares are awful. Deadly Shadows made some interesting changes to equipment too, but I'd need to check what they are.

I agree about escape and dynamic events. They did this in Life of the Party as an experiment, and Assassins. I thought it was brilliant in both. Dishonored had more ways to interact with and change the level, but in that game it felt a bit gimmicky. There should be a way to do this better.

Physics. Thief's physics engine is functional at best. Great for the time, but now it's rather lacking. Good physics would allow for lots of clever emergent gameplay. TDM has great object manipulation. Also Thief's movement and ladders, ropes, mantling, etc are a bit iffy even with the improvements of NewDark.

Lighting. Dynamic lights are better than Thief's pre-done system on the whole. You could move objects to create new shadows to hide in or have enemies with lanterns and moving light sources in the level (this is possible to do in fan missions, but the light carries further than it looks usually, which is frustrating for the player). Using shadows to detect enemies too. The Dark Mod was great with the way you could snuff candles and relight lights with other flames. Maybe extend this to a full-on fire spreading system cos why not.

Some carry-over between missions. Allowing you to change map with a load screen within a mission, or even better see things change when you revisit locations. Make the campaign more dynamic (no story choices though. they don't belong in Thief). Like in MGSV, make the enemies adapt to your tactics, in terms of their equipment. You playstyle should affect the level more, like Dishonored (but without all the BS story changes and general worsening of everything on High Chaos) and if what you do persists within the same level, I think revisiting places like in Casing the Joint and Masks would be way more tolerable and cool.

Better object hiding. Hiding behind objects is inconsistent and generally inadvisable. Make this work better. Maybe add Dishonored's crouching lower when under tables, etc, thing too. Just no hiding in the closet like all horror games; it's boring and overdone.

No BS enemies. I like Thief's undead, but man there are some annoying enemies to sneak past. Mainly Burricks (can't tell which way they're looking!) and any creature that makes noise when KO'd and can't be moved.

Sound... is amazing, but it could be improved these days. The way sound transmits around corners and between rooms is very advanced even today, but it could be better. It's implemented in a buggy way and often sound will massively increase as soon as someone changes room or opens a door; it's jarring. Also corners don't have enough effect, which could be fixed by raytracing.

Learn from Fan Missions. In terms of general design, FMs have shown how more depth, complexity and polish can be added. In particular they show how story can be transmitted even better within gameplay than vanilla Thief managed.

Animations, graphics, etc. Obviously...

I'll probably think of more.

[bill_.]

Originally posted by Tafferwocky:

Play Deadly Shadows and the Dark Mod for an idea of how the core gameplay could be improved.

The AI needs more than 4 stages of alertness. Currently it goes straight from commenting without turning to look, to searching with weapon out. It needs 2 intermediate stages where it turns to look and where it walks around inquisitively without weapon drawn. Furthermore AI don't work together and they cheat when searching for you, by knowing your exact location and slowly moving towards it. In addition, they don't detect you when they contact you and can never hear you running on stone or wood (while marble and metal, gravel are waaay too noisy). Their combat code is also extremely simple and they can't climb obstacles and ladders.

Blackjacking is OP. I think the Dark mod and Thief 3 went too far, such that it felt clunky, in reversing this. Blackjacking should only be possible on the head and neck area, but i think you should be able to do it from the front and to do it on civilians who have detected you (not guards in combat with you though).

About the waste of space, I don't want them to make missions easier, smaller or anything. I do think the maps could do with more details and fewer empty rooms. I think this was caused by time and disc space constraints in both games.

Equipment could be optimised and improved. We need a lantern or candle like in TDM. Flares are awful. Deadly Shadows made some interesting changes to equipment too, but I'd need to check what they are.

I agree about escape and dynamic events. They did this in Life of the Party as an experiment, and Assassins. I thought it was brilliant in both. Dishonored had more ways to interact with and change the level, but in that game it felt a bit gimmicky. There should be a way to do this better.

Physics. Thief's physics engine is functional at best. Great for the time, but now it's rather lacking. Good physics would allow for lots of clever emergent gameplay. TDM has great object manipulation. Also Thief's movement and ladders, ropes, mantling, etc are a bit iffy even with the improvements of NewDark.

Lighting. Dynamic lights are better than Thief's pre-done system on the whole. You could move objects to create new shadows to hide in or have enemies with lanterns and moving light sources in the level (this is possible to do in fan missions, but the light carries further than it looks usually, which is frustrating for the player). Using shadows to detect enemies too. The Dark Mod was great with the way you could snuff candles and relight lights with other flames. Maybe extend this to a full-on fire spreading system cos why not.

Some carry-over between missions. Allowing you to change map with a load screen within a mission, or even better see things change when you revisit locations. Make the campaign more dynamic (no story choices though. they don't belong in Thief). Like in MGSV, make the enemies adapt to your tactics, in terms of their equipment. You playstyle should affect the level more, like Dishonored (but without all the BS story changes and general worsening of everything on High Chaos) and if what you do persists within the same level, I think revisiting places like in Casing the Joint and Masks would be way more tolerable and cool.

Better object hiding. Hiding behind objects is inconsistent and generally inadvisable. Make this work better. Maybe add Dishonored's crouching lower when under tables, etc, thing too. Just no hiding in the closet like all horror games; it's boring and overdone.

No BS enemies. I like Thief's undead, but man there are some annoying enemies to sneak past. Mainly Burricks (can't tell which way they're looking!) and any creature that makes noise when KO'd and can't be moved.

Sound... is amazing, but it could be improved these days. The way sound transmits around corners and between rooms is very advanced even today, but it could be better. It's implemented in a buggy way and often sound will massively increase as soon as someone changes room or opens a door; it's jarring. Also corners don't have enough effect, which could be fixed by raytracing.

Learn from Fan Missions. In terms of general design, FMs have shown how more depth, complexity and polish can be added. In particular they show how story can be transmitted even better within gameplay than vanilla Thief managed.

Animations, graphics, etc. Obviously...

I'll probably think of more.

Great points. I do find it a bit funny, since although thief would benefit from more than 4 stages of awareness, I can’t think of many other stealth games that even has 4 stages of awareness. Wasn’t sure if the AI cheated to know where I was exactly, or if they just heard my location. It does seem a bit random, when you’re completely in the dark and they bump into you? Half the time they recognize your there, half the time they don’t? When I first played thief gold, I did find it also a bit unfortunate that you can essentially run around in a circle around a guard while hitting him.

I agree with everything else, and feel most of them would be quickly eliminated with modern technology. Although I do think AI is the biggest problem. Honestly though looking at everyone’s comment, it’s pretty shocking how well thief has aged. And I say this as someone who’s only played the thief games in the last couple of years.

[Sticky White Stuff]

A personal flaw is the limitation of the engine itself. When going to a new area, the game will *stutter* for a bit. This may not seem obvious, but trying to creep from one room to the next shows this perfectly. Other than that, i am perfectly fine with everything.

[😎 𝓣𝓪𝓯𝓯𝒆𝓻𝔀𝓸𝓬𝓴𝔂 😎]

Yeah, to be honest most of my suggestions were more ways to perfect and advance the forumar. Not critical flaws. I too first played Thief in the last 2 or 3 years and am now a rabid fanboy :D

The AI does cheat. Even if you're perfectly still and hidden they will always head in your direction when searching. I don't know how the bumping works; it's very weird. Would have to study the leaked source code to work it out. And the running in circles is unfortunate, although it only works in darkness and I guess does sort of make sense as Garrett confusing his foe and outflanking him/ dodging his blows. It could be reduced by increasing enemy turn speed and making their swings wider.

Bear in mind the gameplay had been improved with the NewDark patches, especially with movement and physics. Some other minor tweaks would also help make the gameplay less frustrating, and maybe we'll get them if we are lucky.

[😎 𝓣𝓪𝓯𝓯𝒆𝓻𝔀𝓸𝓬𝓴𝔂 😎]

Originally posted by Wonderglue:

A personal flaw is the limitation of the engine itself. When going to a new area, the game will *stutter* for a bit. This may not seem obvious, but trying to creep from one room to the next shows this perfectly. Other than that, i am perfectly fine with everything.

This is due to the portal rendering system and possibly also due to the game loading in sounds. There are ways to reduce the stutter with some NewDark config variables though :)

[bill_.]

Originally posted by Tafferwocky:

Yeah, to be honest most of my suggestions were more ways to perfect and advance the forumar. Not critical flaws. I too first played Thief in the last 2 or 3 years and am now a rabid fanboy :D

The AI does cheat. Even if you're perfectly still and hidden they will always head in your direction when searching. I don't know how the bumping works; it's very weird. Would have to study the leaked source code to work it out. And the running in circles is unfortunate, although it only works in darkness and I guess does sort of make sense as Garrett confusing his foe and outflanking him/ dodging his blows. It could be reduced by increasing enemy turn speed and making their swings wider.

Bear in mind the gameplay had been improved with the NewDark patches, especially with movement and physics. Some other minor tweaks would also help make the gameplay less frustrating, and maybe we'll get them if we are lucky.

Really that's a suprise, I thought you've being a member of ttlg forums since the beginning!? Who knew!

[😎 𝓣𝓪𝓯𝓯𝒆𝓻𝔀𝓸𝓬𝓴𝔂 😎]

Really haha? I've been reading the forums for a couple of years and do have an account, but have only posted a couple of times. I mostly enjoy helping other newbies and fans in the not so well catered for parts of the community, like here, on GoG and the Thief subreddit.

And yeah, I watched gameplay and played the demo a bit several years ago but otherwise totally new! Only played Thief Gold all the way through a year and a half ago :)

[Sticky White Stuff]

Originally posted by Tafferwocky:

Originally posted by Wonderglue:

A personal flaw is the limitation of the engine itself. When going to a new area, the game will *stutter* for a bit. This may not seem obvious, but trying to creep from one room to the next shows this perfectly. Other than that, i am perfectly fine with everything.

This is due to the portal rendering system and possibly also due to the game loading in sounds. There are ways to reduce the stutter with some NewDark config variables though :)

Mind sharing some of them? I noticed the game stutters when loading new sounds, such as scrolling through weapons for the first time. But other sounds don't cause this issue, well most of the them anyway. It was more noticable with the sound effects enhancement pack, so i removed it.