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AlmaBase.record [drive.google.com]
FettelBase.record [drive.google.com]
But usually they just act without any goals.
Value.0000=AI/Goals/IdleMelee
Value.0001=AI/Goals/Animate
Value.0002=AI/Goals/Goto
Value.0003=AI/Goals/TraverseLink
Value.0004=AI/Goals/Death
Value.0005=AI/Goals/Menace
Value.0006=AI/Goals/Chase
Value.0007=AI/Goals/KillEnemy
Value.0008=AI/Goals/Stunned
Value.0009=AI/Goals/IdleSuicide
Fettel goals:
Value.0000=AI/Goals/Investigate
Value.0001=AI/Goals/Menace
Value.0002=AI/Goals/Chase
Value.0003=AI/Goals/KillEnemy
Value.0004=AI/Goals/ReactToDamage
Value.0005=AI/Goals/DodgeMelee
Value.0006=AI/Goals/IdleMelee
Value.0007=AI/Goals/Animate
Value.0008=AI/Goals/Goto
Value.0009=AI/Goals/TraverseLink
Value.0010=AI/Goals/CorrectPosition
Value.0011=AI/Goals/Death
Value.0012=AI/Goals/EscapeDanger
Value.0013=AI/Goals/Cover
Value.0014=AI/Goals/Ambush
Value.0015=AI/Goals/Retreat
Value.0016=AI/Goals/Flee
Well I thought you were done but I'm glad you're back for more. How does Alma being creepy not make her a threat? It's very obvious that the horror in F.E.A.R. has more to do than just atmosphere, since atmosphere is just a background element. The atmosphere is not horrifying in itself but is simply there to reinforce the horror themes of the game. If we were to classify a horror game by it's atmosphere alone and not by it's characters or themes then we could classify lots of games as horror. Half life 2 at times has an eerie atmosphere. Does that make it a horror game? No because the main theme of the game has nothing to do with horror. It is primarily a sci-fi shooter with very minimal horror elements. There is only one level in the entire game that you could consider horror, but most of the game is entirely different. The point is that atmosphere alone does not properly make it a horror game.
Well if you are fed up with me you are free to leave the discussion at any time. We are on a public forum here that anyone can decide to use at any time. I'm not forcing you to participate. I personally enjoy the conversation and don't mind if it continues further. I re-read your posts above and didn't see much of an answer to my previous question, but you still continue to act as if the questions have been answered when that is only true in a small part. I wasn't asking about holes in my argument, I was asking and telling you about things that were in the game itself that undermines the opinions you had about it. If you want to continue the discussion further or move on from this discussion with your own opinion in mind then it's your choice to do so.
I followed the entire discussion between you two and I think things escalated more than they should have.
First of all, I say that someone will hardly be able to understand (or at least interpret reasonably well) F.E.A.R if they don't know some basic concepts about psychology.
The game hardly takes itself seriously within a literal context. Much of what is seen throughout the franchise comes up against Freudian metalanguage. Trying to understand the story by taking each scene of the game to the letter will not help you unravel the bigger picture of the lore.
That's why the whole argument between the two of you about the elevator was, to say the least, a huge waste of time. Most of these concepts are applied to gameplay context only, little of them have canonical importance for the larger story being told.
The entire F.E.A.R franchise aims to play with and subvert the concept of reality questioned by Morpheus in the original Matrix film: “What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then "real" is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain”...
The great protagonist of F.E.A.R is undoubtedly Alma, and each of the games aims to explore the personifications of his mind. Her emotions, pain, anguish, traumas, hopes, etc. Very similar to what Silent Hill as a character (because yes, the city is, within a screenwriting context, a character) does with Alessa in the first game, for example.
And since Monolith and Vivaldi (running TimeGate) had their creative differences during the first years of the franchise, right during the process of solidifying the lore, much of what was already confusing to understand in the original planning, becomes even more complex throughout the sequences.
Between F.E.A.R 1 + Expansions and F.E.A.R 2, it's really difficult to know what was always foreshadowing and what were changes of route for the writing team.
So it's very difficult to deal with absolute certainty when we're talking about the franchise. But I have to be honest in saying that Nexusshark's arguments were, for me, was way more solid in the discussion.
And I don't say this out of cheap agreement, but because I work with psychology and my personal reading of the franchise is very similar to the points highlighted by him.
---
“Alma trying to kill or save Pointman in the first game and/or in Extraction Point”
A: Alma has a broken and fragmented mind. The way she assimilates concepts of affection and love is strictly distorted. This is more than enough to explain the moments where she tries to kill or not kill Pointman here or there.
“In the first game she already knew that Pointman was her son from the beginning.”
A: No, she didn't. And this is an immutable consensus among the fanbase. She didn't know, as they had been separated for years. She only managed to recognize him after the scene where she says “I know who you are”.
“She sent the ghosts to kill him so many times.”
A: Alma doesn't necessarily control the ghosts directly. They are an unconscious manifestation of your feelings of pain, agony, abuse, etc. She just "generates" them.
In all the moments where Pointman is attacked by the ghosts, it is hardly an objective and direct intention of her trying to kill him.
Again, Alma's psyche is completely broken. Part of her does want to protect Pointman, because the trauma of having lost her firstborn is very strong (and this is very evident in the scenes of the first game when she screams “my baby” while Harlan takes him away).
However, Pointman spends Extraction Point and the entire first game, objectively disrupting his mother's plans, which means that a part of her still sees him as a threat.
“Alma sends the ghosts to attack Pointman whenever he has the visions.”
A: Again, the ghosts are a product of Alma's damaged psyche. Pointman also faces them whenever he mentally connects with his mother. Furthermore, Fettel is also capable of generating ghosts. Both Fettel and corporeal Alma emit the ghosts much more as a general line of defense than objectively to kill Pointman.
Fettel and Alma know that Pointman is family, but they equally know that he blindly follows the orders of his superiors without question. This creates a dilemma.
“About the hallucinations, both in the first game and in Extraction Point.”
A: The visions in the first game are a mix of Pointman's erased memories and Alma's memories. Pointman was able to access this amalgam of memories through the bond he has with Alma (and this is independent of whether or not he has developed psychic abilities like Fettel).
Yes, Alma can't reach Pointman to do the "synchronization" like she was able to do with Fettel, but that comes down to just a matter of psychic leveling.
In other words... Pointman is able to connect minimally with Alma in the first game to access the visions without a complete synchronization necessarily having to occur.
This segues into Extraction Point, where Pointman still connects with Alma's subconscious projections.
---
Try to understand…
Alma's goal in the first game was simply to escape. And she deliberately uses Fettel for this because she couldn't reach Pointman to do a sync.
Alma does not feel the same love for Fettel as she does for Poitnman. Pointman was her firstborn and the pain of having her baby taken from her made her even more unstable and psychotic. That's why, a year later, Fettel is born inheriting so many of these traits.
In F.E.A.R 2 - Reborn, Alma tries to stop Foxtrot 813 so that he doesn't resurrect Fettel because she knows he is a psychopath. So much so that Fettel then complains that "he was abandoned by mother".
Alma only used Fettel to free herself, but she knew he had no real intentions of loving her reciprocally. This only seems to be the case during the first game, while in the third title we get a more solid development that shows just how much of a complete megalomaniac Fettel is.
Alma had every possible reason to protect Pointman, even though he blindly followed the orders of his superiors without caring about the fact that she was his own mother.
It is exactly for this reason that Alma finds a “solution” to have a third child that no one would take away from her, thus being able to feel reciprocal love for the first time.
Extraction Point intended to further explore Alma's broken psyche, applying a dissociative context to the character where her thirst for revenge contrasts with the love she feels for Pointman.
A distorted fraternal love, but love nonetheless. In the same way as F.E.A.R 2 explores a twisted romantic love with Beckett.
Extraction Point makes many allusions to what we would see in the future in F.3.A.R, about the whole apocalyptic chaos that Alma wanted to spread throughout the world, as said by Fettel several times (even Poitman's hallucinations are also based on this, on the pain of Alma setting the entire planet on fire).
The end of the EP resolves the dissociative issue used as a script maneuver by the writers, making Alma overcome her desire to be with her childrens since they both don't truly love her. This is illustrated by the two versions of the character merging at the end of the game.
The problem is that this same ending leads to apocalyptic chaos that would only be covered in more detail in F.3.A.R, in addition to the Fettel issue that needed to be explored correctly in F.E.A.R 2 - Reborn.
This is why Monolith couldn't fit EP into their chronology. But as Nexus mentioned, Alma's M.O. is pretty categorical. Because she acts with Beckett in F.E.A.R 2 exactly as she acted with Pointman in the first game and later EP. What changes is the development from fraternal love to romantic love.
F.E.A.R is a great biblical parable involving God (Harlan) Eve (Alma), Adam (Beckett and also Harlan), Caim (Fettel) and Abel (Pointman).
And yes, I am aware that Caim is the one who kills Abel in the Bible, but the game subverts this by reversing the roles during the first F.E.A.R.
Where do I want to go with all this? It's just that your point in the discussion, Jolt90, in saying that Alma suddenly wants to protect Pointman for no reason, doesn't make sense when we look at the bigger picture of the entire franchise.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially the fact that the elevator part was a huge waste of time (and I felt it, trust me).
During the discussion I was actually thinking if I should include evidence from FEAR 2-3, but I drew back on that thought for two reasons.
1. Extraction Point is not part of the Monolith timeline, so I'd like to be careful when using evidence from a different timeline.
2. The discussion was already huge enough with the countless walls of text and I had a feeling I would only waste my time, because Jolt would only revert back to that stupid elevator argument of his anyway. There's simply no moving forward with him. So I had to end it.
I am however curious how he would respond to your points, so I'll be sticking around to see how it goes. But based on my personal experience I don't exactly expect much in terms of progress. I do wish you good luck though. And lots of patience. You'll need it.
From the little that was released to the general public, the basis of the agreement between Monolith and Vivaldi (which assigned the production of EP and PM to TimeGate) would be something like: Monolith would focus on writing F2 while TimeGate extended the life of the first game with the expansions.
Monolith passed on to TimeGate some sketches and ideas of the development they envisioned for Alma, but there was no in-depth communication after that first contact.
Vivaldi didn't maintain a bridge between the two writing teams and when EP was ready, Monolith's hands were tied because a lot of what was there didn't fit with what they had already planned for F2.
Still, there was something there, as TimeGate used some of the ideas that Monolith had given them just before they jumped ship to focus strictly on F2.
That's why, even though EP and PM are not canonical, I still see a lot of Monolith's hand in what was explored in the lore of the two expansions. It is clearly possible to perceive their signature in several aspects.
I completely agree with you when we assume that Alma only tries to kill Pointman directly once during the first game, and from the moment she recognizes him as her firstborn, she leaves that intention aside.
While I was playing the first F.E.A.R I also understood that the little Alma was guiding Pointman to find her in the vault (Fettel invariably ends up doing this too).
In F1, Alma wanted her children together, just as had happened when they were little (as we can see in the flashbacks of F3). Fettel also believed he could convert Pointman if he recovered his memories and made him aware of what Harlan did to Alma all those years.
And even though Pointman becomes aware of all this, he still continues to blindly obey his orders.
It was also said that the adult and corporeal version of Alma does not know that Pointman is her son, but at the end of F1, now free from the vault, she tries to hug him, asking for acceptance.
So I believe she is aware that Pointman is her son, but again, the fact that he is still a puppet of his superiors leaves her pisset.
This is where her the dissociation of comes into play: with your innocent, pure and loving version wanting your son to help you while your adult, spiteful and vengeful version doesn't have the slightest patience to deal with your son's rebellion.
So it remains something like: “Okay, you are my son, but you are being a pain in the ass, so if you continue in my way, I will be forced to defend myself, even if I don't want harm you directly”.
The little version of Alma, on the other hand, is afraid of the adult version because she doesn't know how to deal with so much resentment and hatred. That’s why she tries to ask Pointman for help, “her baby that has been taken away.”
Again, Fettel is a megalomaniac psychopath. Alma knows this and keeps him around as long as it's convenient. Alma's goal in EP is to find a way to cease her dissociative condition by becoming whole again. To do this, the adult version needs to find the little version, who is constantly playing a game of cat and mouse.
Pointman makes this entire process difficult until the end of the game. But it is categorical that the little version of Alma wanted to be with her firstborn, she wanted him to help her get rid of all that resentment.
The adult Alma, however, has no direct intention of killing Pointman, as already being said.
In F1 she notices that Pointman is chasing her as she leaves the Vault. Emitting the ghosts had much more to do with protecting himself than wanting to kill him.
I believe that many of our points of view complement each other. My goal here is not to offend Jolt by calling him ignorant or anything like that, but it is a fact that the little Alma intention to protect Pointman is well founded, especially if you look at the lore in a holistic context.
Why are you bringing psychology into this? Freudian metalanguage???? We are talking about the storyline of a video game, if you have to go to outside concepts to explain things in a game then what's the point? How does F.E.A.R. having character tropes or archetypes that are similar to characters from movies or the bible even relate to anything here? It doesn't explain the story issues.
My whole point from the very beginning is simple. It was that Alma killing replicas and helping point man within extraction point contradict the first game. Information was established in the first game about Alma being a threat since we see her killing your team mates and even trying to kill you. In the first game we also learn that she was influencing Paxton Fettel and caused him to trigger the replicas which started the Armacham uprising as seen in the opening scene. So then why would she start attacking replicas in EP? It's not explained in EP so we are left with a contradiction. Which is exactly why the OP created this thread in the first place. Both things were confusing to him so he posted the question.
The definition of a protagonist is: "A protagonist (from Ancient Greek πρωταγωνιστής prōtagōnistḗs 'one who plays the first part, chief actor')[1][2][3] is the main character of a story. The protagonist makes key decisions that affect the plot, primarily influencing the story and propelling it forward, and is often the character who faces the most significant obstacles."
Now think for a second who you think is the protagonist of the first game and EP. Who is it that faces all the obstacles and conflict through the game? Who is the one who actually faces setbacks? It would have to be the point man, since he is the one facing conflict not Alma. His battle with replica forces is the main conflict in the game. He also faces setbacks, such as in EP when his blackhawk at the top of the hospital is shot down. Furthermore, the protagonist in a story is also the one with the main focus, and that does not apply to Alma. She has a small amount of appearances and dialogue compared to some of the other characters. She is an antagonist along with Fettel. These are very obvious details that I should not have to explain.
Except she didn't say "Now I know who you are." That could still apply if she knew who point man was all along. There is nothing in the quote that implies that she didn't know who the point man was previously, she just said she knows who he is. If we examine the statement "I know who you are" on it's own she could literally just have easily said it even if she knew who he was from the beginning. It's not treated like a new revelation from her. The game also never directly implies anywhere that she didn't know who the point man was until that moment. So I don't know where you get that idea from. I suggest you don't try to take statements from the game and twist them to mean what you want them to mean. That should apply when you analyze any story.
Yes, Fettel can also create ghosts however it is very obvious at the end of F.E.A.R. 1 that Alma is trying to kill him. After she kills Harlan wade she can teleport ghosts to attack him in reality, which can result in his death.
Well, she also wanted to take revenge on Armacham using the replicas after what happened to her.
The second and third game are irrelevant to the discussion, since we are just speaking about the first game and EP. Also the last point there makes no sense. I'm not the one saying that Alma wants to protect point man, I've been saying since the beginning that it doesn't make sense in the context of the first game. It seems like you have confused yourself so much and are now confused as to what I was even arguing here.
Except that if you actually play the game and stick to what the game says instead of focusing on other things outside of the game like the sequels you would see that the conclusion you come to doesn't make sense. As I brought up in a previous point Alma literally sends the ghosts to attack you after she gets unleashed by Harlan. Have you ever thought to step back and actually look at your conclusion for what it is here? It contains so many errors that could be avoided if you actually looked at things critically to see if it really makes sense or not. If it doesn't, then instead of trying to explain it away just accept that there is a contradiction. That way you don't have to insert your own ideas into the story for it to make sense. Any story should stand and make sense on it's own. Whether it be a book, game, movie or whatever other type of story. No story should have to rely on sequels or other outside stories to make sense.
Despite the fact that she tries to do so in both F.E.A.R. 1 and EP??????????????????????????????????????????????
That makes no sense why she would try to kill him with the ghosts if she was trying to protect him. She wouldn't risk potentially killing him at all if the motivation was to protect him. And again, young Alma protecting Fettel doesn't make sense either. After she tries to kill him by blowing him up why would she all of sudden flip and stop trying to kill him?