Planned big rebalance (around v1.20) - DONE!

[Chris Koźmik]

All right, here is the thing. The game could use some rebalance. But I would not want to mess up existing games in progress (having the game rules change each time you download a new version is no fun).

So, I decided to make one BIG rebalance in future (probably around v1.20 or v1.30) where various changes will come into effect. At the same time, the last of the old rules build (v1.1x) would be made into a separate Steam Beta branch which you can enable if you wish (because you wanted to finish your game using the old rules, or simply liked the old rules better).

In the meantime, there will be "Experimental Rebalance" option which will let you opt-in to ongoing rebalance (if you don't mind, or even enjoy, more chaotic gameplay). When enabled it will allow you to experience, gradually, some (but not all) of the planned balance changes.

[Chris Koźmik]

Is anyone playing on Experimental Features? I could use some feedback (make sure to always mention the game version, since those change from version to version).

[Diarmuid]

I read a few threads about balance and decided to make the post here answering some of them. By the way I discovered and played both games in a row, and they were awesome addictive fun, despite balance issues, thank you!

Now, all original Might and Magic games had the problem of the party becoming too powerful. That's because if you want to make the game non-linear, you need to provide different options at the same level. But that will mean there is too much XP gained if you do them all. So in all M&M games you ended up at a point where you overpowered everything and the endgame was easy, but there is no way around that if you want to provide a path for winning the game at less than 100% completion. Games such as DM or EoB controlled the progression linearly, so it was much easier to balance.

Now, the curve can be tweaked and it's possible to time better where the breaking point is. I just finished LoA 1 & 2, and the "overpowered" state arrived much later in the first game, it felt like getting to the endgame. In LoA 2, with the current balance, it's true I could just hold R for all monsters from the middle onwards, maybe the Ice Queen's bears and the Beholders were the only exception. (Played on normal both games, but normal felt fine in LoA 1, way too easy in LoA 2).

I see a lot of talk about rebalancing characters and spells, but I feel that what needs rebalancing is the monsters curve/distribution. There's a few below lvl 10, there's a few above 30, but the vast majority feels like it's in the 15-25 range, which gets repetitive and boring once you pass that level, something which indeed happens at around 30-40% of the game. Spreading monsters towards the high range would make levelling up at higher levels meaningful again. And it's really a question of distribution. I feel that if I played on Hard or Insane, it would be the same, I would have more trouble getting to the tipping point, but once past that, it would become too easy.

Also, there are almost no high range monsters. You need some really high level ones that are goal to beat until the end, possibly in optional dungeons or guarding optional treasure. The barbarian chief or the dragons are a good idea but they are not powerful enough. Especially the Black Dragon which you can simply bypass. Think of the Mega Dragon in Xeen, now that was something to aspire to beat even at the highest levels.

[Chris Koźmik]

Originally posted by Diarmuid:

I see a lot of talk about rebalancing characters and spells, but I feel that what needs rebalancing is the monsters curve/distribution. There's a few below lvl 10, there's a few above 30, but the vast majority feels like it's in the 15-25 range, which gets repetitive and boring once you pass that level, something which indeed happens at around 30-40% of the game. Spreading monsters towards the high range would make levelling up at higher levels meaningful again. And it's really a question of distribution. I feel that if I played on Hard or Insane, it would be the same, I would have more trouble getting to the tipping point, but once past that, it would become too easy.

Hmm, can you propose a better distribution (area > desired monster level)? I will see what can be done.

[Diarmuid]

I'm not really sure. BTW as someone else said in another thread, I love the game and your work, this is all trying to help.

It's seems it's simple math of the game being bigger in size, but within the same level range for monsters, so there's too much xp around, and in the same middle range. And it's kind of a consequence of a too open world once you find the 1st sea boat.

I really loved the 3 tiers of water navigation and how they progressively unlocked new previously unreachable areas, that was fantastic. You could use this to linearize things just a bit as a trade-off for better balance and sense of achievement. When I finally reached the areas behind navigation lvl2 and lvl3, there were about the same level or lower as areas I already had access to, and it made it underwhelming.

A few zones that I would personally rethink: (SPOILERS!!!!)

- The green zone above the dwarves (A3) has some very easy beetles, but you needed to go through the ice tunnel and cold to get there. That should be much much harder, so getting to the valley of dwarves would feel like an achievement and arriving in a small haven of peace in the middle of a hard world. Fits dwarves. It's a zone locked behind lvl3 navigation so it should feel like something special. That's actually where you get lvl3 navigation and it should be harder to attain, because in turn it unlocks the black dragon Lair. This harder zone above would be a prelude to getting to the SW waste zone which should also be much more challenging. When I arrived there I just held R through the entire baron keep. The monsters there could easily be 5-10 lvls higher.

- The lava zone in the SE is ridiculously easy. I like to have my maps neatly completed so I simply walked on every tile with regen and mass heal spells, not even bothering for levitation/insulation. I had only completed the NE rock by then, nothing in the snow or west, and was already around lvl35. The small salamanders could as well not having been there. There was no incentive to use the magma dungeon. The whole fire zone needs to do more lava damage, and have some very high end monsters above lvl 50, they can even be 60, because it's optional. You can always work to get to the SE tower through the magma dungeon, and this would give you reason to do it. At the same time it's a neat challenge that could reward players with a unique chest or something around 132,89.

- The ogre zone (B2) is the only one that lvl2 navigation unlocks, and it's super easy. Especially since it's totally optional again, you need to go through the elven portal to get beyond.

- The swamp zone felt a bit useless. Just lots of worms and monsters, some of an actually decent level, but nothing behind it, so it was a lot of free grinding xp without an outlet to put it in use. I know that's not just rebalancing, more adding content, but that could have been the place to hide a super-high level dungeon like the Maze from Hell in the swamp in MM3, which would grand an "Ultimate Adventurer" achievement. Totally optional, just a challenge for players with 60-70lvl monsters.

- The cold area was well balanced in terms of monsters, but environment cold should do a lot lot more damage in the "extreme" regions. Right now I didn't feel much difference between the cold tiers, and anyway warm/insulated items are easy to get, but don't matter enough. It would force you to find those items, and possibly swap them in place of better gear, making fights more challenging, and contribute to the psychological feeling of fighting in a hostile environment.

Anyway, consider I played on Normal, but right now normal is too easy. I loved the game and will surely give it a replay at some point on Hard.

[Chris Koźmik]

Originally posted by Diarmuid:

I'm not really sure. BTW as someone else said in another thread, I love the game and your work, this is all trying to help.

It's seems it's simple math of the game being bigger in size, but within the same level range for monsters, so there's too much xp around, and in the same middle range. And it's kind of a consequence of a too open world once you find the 1st sea boat.

I really loved the 3 tiers of water navigation and how they progressively unlocked new previously unreachable areas, that was fantastic. You could use this to linearize things just a bit as a trade-off for better balance and sense of achievement. When I finally reached the areas behind navigation lvl2 and lvl3, there were about the same level or lower as areas I already had access to, and it made it underwhelming.

A few zones that I would personally rethink: (SPOILERS!!!!)

- The green zone above the dwarves (A3) has some very easy beetles, but you needed to go through the ice tunnel and cold to get there. That should be much much harder, so getting to the valley of dwarves would feel like an achievement and arriving in a small haven of peace in the middle of a hard world. Fits dwarves. It's a zone locked behind lvl3 navigation so it should feel like something special. That's actually where you get lvl3 navigation and it should be harder to attain, because in turn it unlocks the black dragon Lair. This harder zone above would be a prelude to getting to the SW waste zone which should also be much more challenging. When I arrived there I just held R through the entire baron keep. The monsters there could easily be 5-10 lvls higher.

- The lava zone in the SE is ridiculously easy. I like to have my maps neatly completed so I simply walked on every tile with regen and mass heal spells, not even bothering for levitation/insulation. I had only completed the NE rock by then, nothing in the snow or west, and was already around lvl35. The small salamanders could as well not having been there. There was no incentive to use the magma dungeon. The whole fire zone needs to do more lava damage, and have some very high end monsters above lvl 50, they can even be 60, because it's optional. You can always work to get to the SE tower through the magma dungeon, and this would give you reason to do it. At the same time it's a neat challenge that could reward players with a unique chest or something around 132,89.

- The ogre zone (B2) is the only one that lvl2 navigation unlocks, and it's super easy. Especially since it's totally optional again, you need to go through the elven portal to get beyond.

- The swamp zone felt a bit useless. Just lots of worms and monsters, some of an actually decent level, but nothing behind it, so it was a lot of free grinding xp without an outlet to put it in use. I know that's not just rebalancing, more adding content, but that could have been the place to hide a super-high level dungeon like the Maze from Hell in the swamp in MM3, which would grand an "Ultimate Adventurer" achievement. Totally optional, just a challenge for players with 60-70lvl monsters.

- The cold area was well balanced in terms of monsters, but environment cold should do a lot lot more damage in the "extreme" regions. Right now I didn't feel much difference between the cold tiers, and anyway warm/insulated items are easy to get, but don't matter enough. It would force you to find those items, and possibly swap them in place of better gear, making fights more challenging, and contribute to the psychological feeling of fighting in a hostile environment.

Anyway, consider I played on Normal, but right now normal is too easy. I loved the game and will surely give it a replay at some point on Hard.

Lava and Frost damage was increased (if enabled Experimental Rebalance) in v1.15. How it feels now?

As for other balance changes, I checked and I'm quite open to upping by +5 /+10 levels (on average) the monsters beyond the Great Desert (except the most dangerous areas of course)...

I'm also open to add a new location to swamps.

But this means that v1.20/v1.30 saves would be incompatible... Which is not that bad, the old version would be kept as Beta branch so accessible. Just saying.

Also, I have read some stuff on some forums/topics and it feels like LoA II is overall easier than the first one (I presume the area after the Great Desert)? Do you people agree?

[Chris Koźmik]

BIG REBALANCE (v1.20) draft

This is the draft of the planned changes for the Big Rebalance version. This would affect new saves only. If you have comments, post now!

- (BIG REBALANCE) Insane difficulty has all prices like on Hard.
- (BIG REBALANCE) Elves have no longer Endurance penalty.
- (BIG REBALANCE) Elves got +10 Sorcery resistance.
- (BIG REBALANCE) Wood Elf extra attributes changed to DEX & TOU (to allow a viable elf warrior option).
- (BIG REBALANCE) Archer second attribute boost upon level up changed from STR to TOU (since Strength is useless when using bows).
- (BIG REBALANCE) Champions extra damage vs Sorcerers & Warlocks +30% instead +10%.
- (BIG REBALANCE) Champions got Sorcery resistance +15 and Fire/Cold/Lightning resistances +5.
- (BIG REBALANCE) Troll Slayers got Fear resistance +50.

Everything from Experimental Rebalance moved to regular rules:
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: New hit chance formula (taking Dexterity into account more).
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Monsters got Dexterity attribute (Dexterity value depends on level, also Trolls got it significantly lower), which affect hit and evade.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Dragons got better armor.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Offensive spells power +20%, level 1-29 offensive spells power +50%.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Whirling item ability chance increased significantly (to 25%).
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Troll Slayers got extra +2x HP multiplier (to a total of 9x HP), making the class the highest HP in the game (to compare: Warrior has 6x HP and Knight 7x HP).
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Archers got +x1 Damage multiplier and +20% Critical Hit Chance (previously +10%) when using bows.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Bards (and Troubadours) got +1x MP multiplier.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Mage Knights got +1x HP multiplier and +1x Arcane multiplier (on par with Wizard) also access to Resist Elements spell.
- [experimental] Only if enabled Experimental Rebalance: Lava environmental damage x3, Extremely cold environmental damage x2 (lower grades of frost damage not changed).

Considered/maybe:
? Magic shop prices reduction and new items.
? Adjusted base level of monsters in some areas of the overworld (generally those are too low level after the Great Desert).
? Extra location on East Marshes (with very hard enemies).
? Trolls got Fear attack.
? Musical instruments for Bards and Troubadours only (Arcane boost).
? Increased experience required to level up (on Normal) so the max achievable level is reduced slightly (we talk about 5-10%). Experience reduction from difficulty flattened (so Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane allow to reach a similar level).
? Possible additional difficulty adjustments (Hard/Insane). Discussed in the Insane/Insane+ topic: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2110840/discussions/0/4203615689068526943/

Content related (please use "spoiler" tag if you refer to those, but within reason, only if your reply would reveal too much):
- [map] Northumbia Snow Lizard change to Ice Lizards and up level (to level 20-30?).
- [map] Note that Snow Lizards (10) and Ice Trolls (25) are also in the Snow Valley which is accessible from Astoria. So probably those should not be adjusted too much... Still maybe Snow Lizards from level 10 to level 15?
- [map] How about Barbarians (NE)? Do they need a boost (15/20 right now)?
- [map] Deermoor (SW) Green Beetles upped from 25/30 to 30/35 maybe and also added some more deadly attacks?
- [map] Caves in far SW do Mantis need upping?

[What Sarah Said]

I'm so excited! When does the update go live? :D

[Chris Koźmik]

Originally posted by What Sarah Said:

I'm so excited! When does the update go live? :D

So, I assume no comments :)
Hard to tell, needs testing first. Next month I hope?

[Chris Koźmik]

This is the final draft of the planned changes for the Big Rebalance version (it's under testing right now). If you have comments, post now!

BIG REBALANCE (v1.20) draft v2

- [feature] New item type Musical instruments which grants "Music" (Arcane bonus usable for Bards and Troubadours only).

- [content] Magic shop adjustments: prices reduced significantly (almost halved), new items available (weapons, arcane sources, etc).
- [content] New item: Ring of Arcane (common).

- [balance] Insane difficulty now has all prices like on Hard.
- [balance] Elves have no longer Endurance penalty.
- [balance] Elves got +10 Sorcery resistance.
- [balance] Wood Elf extra attributes changed to DEX & TOU (to allow a viable elf warrior option).
- [balance] Archer second attribute boost upon level up changed from STR to TOU (since Strength is useless when using bows).
- [balance] Champions extra damage vs Sorcerers & Warlocks +30% instead +10%.
- [balance] Champions got Sorcery resistance +15 and Fire/Cold/Lightning resistances +5.
- [balance] Troll Slayers got Fear resistance +50.
- [balance] Actually a fix, attacks vs ALL party members were never causing status effects as those intended to. But since it was never mentioned it should work this way and it was playtested without this and therefore the difference here of being classified as a bug or a feature is my original intention, it was propagated from a bug to a feature... Yup, that's the most logical approach. I know, life is strange.

Everything from Experimental Rebalance moved to the regular ruleset:
- [balance] New hit chance formula (taking Dexterity into account more).
- [balance] Monsters got Dexterity attribute (Dexterity value depends on level, also Trolls got it significantly lower), which affect hit and evade.
- [balance] Dragons got better armor.
- [balance] Offensive spells power +20%, level 1-29 offensive spells power +50%.
- [balance] Whirling item ability chance increased significantly (to 25%).
- [balance] Troll Slayers got extra +2x HP multiplier (to a total of 9x HP), making the class the highest HP in the game (to compare: Warrior has 6x HP and Knight 7x HP).
- [balance] Archers got +x1 Damage multiplier and +20% Critical Hit Chance (previously +10%) when using bows.
- [balance] Bards (and Troubadours) got +1x MP multiplier.
- [balance] Mage Knights got +1x HP multiplier and +1x Arcane multiplier (on par with Wizard) also access to Resist Elements spell.
- [balance] Lava environmental damage x3, Extremely cold environmental damage x2 (lower grades of frost damage not changed).
- [balance] Snow/Ice/Great Ice Lizards got significant level up.
- [balance] Barbarians got level up (from 15/20 to 20/25).
- [balance] Trolls got Fear attack.
- [balance] Green Beetles level increased.
- [balance] Mantis level increased and more deadly attack types added.

[DodoGeo]

Got it on GOG.com when the game released as support for classic Might and Magic type games, plus had a blast with the first game.
Unfortunately haven't found the time to play, but my only input would be that games like these are fun getting ridiculous with balance at some point and that is a big part of the fun.
I would point to Pillars of Eternity as the opposite by going for balance everything seems the same in contrast how to Might and Magic could get crazy.
Don't know if this helps in any way...

[Chris Koźmik]

If you have comments on the planned rebalance, post now :)

[Chris Koźmik]

Final list of adjustments. Release planned around Monday.

BIG REBALANCE (v1.20) v3

- [feature] New item type Musical instruments which grants "Music" (Arcane bonus usable for Bards and Troubadours only).

- [balance] Elves have no longer Endurance penalty.
- [balance] Elves got +10 Sorcery resistance.
- [balance] Wood Elf extra attributes changed to DEX & TOU (to allow a viable elf warrior option).
- [balance] Archer second attribute boost upon level up changed from STR to TOU (since Strength is useless when using bows).
- [balance] Champions extra damage vs Sorcerers & Warlocks +30% instead +10%.
- [balance] Champions got Sorcery resistance +15 and Fire/Cold/Lightning resistances +5.
- [balance] Troll Slayers got Fear resistance +50.
- [balance] Wizards and Healers (plus derived classes) talent changed to "Magical Resistance" (+1 Fire/Cold/Lightning resistance per 3 points of Knowledge).
- [balance] All classes got double Arcane gain from knowledge (like Wizards and Healers previously). Which makes Knowledge equally efficient for all classes in regard of extra Arcane.
- [balance] Experience required to level up from Difficulty level flattened (Hard and Insane now have a much smaller experience penalty).
- [balance] Insane difficulty now has all prices like on Hard.
- [balance] Armor maximum damage reduction increased by x0.5 (minimum damage reduction not changed). This means that armor can potentially reduce more damage (and reduces more on average) but has a higher variation.
- [balance] Actually a fix, attacks vs ALL party members were never causing status effects as those intended to. But since it was never mentioned it should work this way and it was playtested without this and therefore the difference here of being classified as a bug or a feature is my original intention, it was propagated from a bug to a feature... Yup, that's the most logical approach. I know, life is strange.

Everything from Experimental Rebalance moved to regular ruleset:
- [balance] New hit chance formula (taking Dexterity into account more).
- [balance] Monsters got Dexterity attribute (Dexterity value depends on level, also Trolls got it significantly lower), which affect hit and evade.
- [balance] Offensive spells power +20%, level 1-29 offensive spells power +50%.
- [balance] Whirling item ability chance increased significantly (to 25%).
- [balance] Reduced griffin travel time (from 4h to 2h).
- [balance] Lava environmental damage x3, Extremely cold environmental damage x2 (lower grades of frost damage not changed).
- [balance] Troll Slayers got extra +2x HP multiplier (to a total of 9x HP), making the class the highest HP in the game (to compare: Warrior has 6x HP and Knight 7x HP).
- [balance] Archers got +x1 Damage multiplier and +20% Critical Hit Chance (previously +10%) when using bows.
- [balance] Bards (and Troubadours) got +1x MP multiplier.
- [balance] Mage Knights got +1x HP multiplier and +1x Arcane multiplier (on par with Wizard) also access to Resist Elements spell.
- [balance] Dragons got better armor.
- [balance] Snow/Ice/Great Ice Lizards got significant level up.
- [balance] Barbarians got level up (from 15/20 to 20/25).
- [balance] Trolls got Fear attack.
- [balance] Green Beetles level increased.
- [balance] Mantis level increased and more deadly attack types added.

- [content] Magic shop adjustments: prices reduced significantly (almost halved), new items available (weapons, arcane sources, etc).
- [content] New item: Ring of Arcane (common).
- [content] New location on East Marshes with high level enemies (to explore in the late game).
- [content] Removed some Barbarians and added some Grey Snakes in the beyond Bardacia region (there were too many identical monsters).

- [interface] Hit/Evade tooltip lists chance to hit table vs example values.
- [interface] Shows Critical Hit Chance on the Character/Hit tooltip.

[Chris Koźmik]

And v1.20 is out :D

[Chris Koźmik]

Important (manual): v.1.20 has incorrect manual (the correct one was shipped in the game data but I forgot to replace it so the old one is displayed). Will be fixed in v1.20.1.

In the meantime you can manually access the correct manual by going to data/locale/en_EN/manual_1.20

[Chris Koźmik]

I was thinking how to proceed from now on. I mean, some further adjustments might be desirable... but I would not want to destabilize plays on progress...

So, I got an idea, maybe make "rulesets per play", which means each save has rules saved on start of the game and it ignores further changes of the rules (for this play only, when you start a new game, newest ruleset is used). Possibly with some "button" somewhere" to allow use of the newest ruleset with the play in progress (which could not be reversed).
What you think?