Secret rules, worth the struggle for alternate ending?

[Electric Donkey]

Warning, puzzle rules spoilers. I'm not looking for answers, just opinions.

I got the "easy" ending and I certainly enjoyed most of the time I spent with the game.

Now I'm left wondering if I should just look up solutions to see the rest of the content (alternate ending, remaining video clips) or keep banging my head against a wall trying to learn the REAL rules for puzzle pieces and earn that content.

The "teaching" puzzles which first introduce the various pieces don't actually require (or possibly even ALLOW) you to discover the complete set of rules governing them.

Two puzzles which come to mind are the multicolored star puzzle in the village, the one on the bell tower door which has three magenta and three red stars. This clearly makes it impossible to solve according to the guidance offered in the treehouse series of puzzles, which APPEAR to say that a star must be captured / paired with exactly one other item of the same color, and being in the same capture group with items of other colors has no effect. (And I'm also stuck on the star puzzle inside the RGB room nearby. I know what the colors of the stars are, I just can't figure out a line that separates them into color pairs.)

The other puzzle I'm grinding my teeth at is the door on the shore behind the desert temple. At first I thought the blue squares were red herrings because my understanding of the rules governing them as taught by the puzzles in the swamp was that they needed to be included in the outline of whatever the final shape would be, with the deletions, but the blue squares are too far from the orange squares for that to happen. However when I finally found what would have otherwise been a valid solution (passed through all intersections, captured the orange blocks in valid orientations), the puzzle still wasn't solved, so the blue squares which I thought would be inert are not.

There's also the right side door on the exit from the underground home theater into the village, the one with the four black squares and the four orange corner pieces. A very simple puzzle which has no solution using my mental model of the rules for those pieces.

Then of course there's things like the shipwreck puzzle which apparently even people who have solved it don't have a consensus on the rules that make the solution valid.

I have had ideas about what the REAL rules for stars and blue squares might be, but they've all been wrong so far (obviously). I'm not asking what those rules are (looks like someone has a guide posted with exactly that), but in the opinion of people who have either worked them out for themselves or looked them up, should I bother? I feel like the designer should have made the real rules slightly more discoverable...

[IHNN]

The town stars puzzle with the red and magenta is discoverable- the town uses and mixes mechanics from all over the island. (apparently this spoiler is basically an answer so don't read if you want to figure it out even though it's a hint)Further hint: the greenhouse plays around with colors and how they change when viewed through a different lens, rendering unsolvable puzzles solvable

The RGB room star line is a tricky one to find, and one of only a few that I needed pencil and paper for.

The desert vault door isn't too bad with one realization about blue squares: that is taught in the swamp. If the blue squares can erase an entire shape, than the shape that encloses the blue and yellow shapes no longer matters.

The underground theater puzzle you mention you have understood- just play around with physical pieces in the required shapes, and try to piece them together. It can be easier to try to figure out which squares can't be part of the final solution- there's no mechanical tricks here.

The shipwreck puzzle is well understood at this point- the actual process of discovering the solution is very difficult but even a partial understanding of the symbols (gleaned from the Jungle) allows finding a solution with minimal difficulty.


Your final statement implies that the rules have changed: they haven't. The real rules seem to be what you think they are, with perhaps a small nuance not quite understood yet. Notably, you have stars correct. The game is very well put together to teach attentive players the rules without a single word, and if a puzzle seems to contradict the rule, then either you're missing something about how to look at the puzzle or your understanding of the rule is flawed. Source: solved every puzzle in the game myself.

[Catgirl Jessica]

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

Two puzzles which come to mind are the multicolored star puzzle in the village, the one on the bell tower door which has three magenta and three red stars. This clearly makes it impossible to solve according to the guidance offered in the treehouse series of puzzles, which APPEAR to say that a star must be captured / paired with exactly one other item of the same color, and being in the same capture group with items of other colors has no effect. (And I'm also stuck on the star puzzle inside the RGB room nearby. I know what the colors of the stars are, I just can't figure out a line that separates them into color pairs.)

You are missing something here. The village combines multiple different puzzle elements together. If the puzzle cannot be solved in a straightforward way based on the rules you know, maybe you need to approach it in a different way instead of assuming there are more rules in play.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

The other puzzle I'm grinding my teeth at is the door on the shore behind the desert temple. At first I thought the blue squares were red herrings because my understanding of the rules governing them as taught by the puzzles in the swamp was that they needed to be included in the outline of whatever the final shape would be, with the deletions, but the blue squares are too far from the orange squares for that to happen. However when I finally found what would have otherwise been a valid solution (passed through all intersections, captured the orange blocks in valid orientations), the puzzle still wasn't solved, so the blue squares which I thought would be inert are not.

The blue squares being too far apart to be used in conjunction with both yellow shapes is a fairly important clue here. Since there are exactly 4 blue squares, it leads to only one approach at a valid solution.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

There's also the right side door on the exit from the underground home theater into the village, the one with the four black squares and the four orange corner pieces. A very simple puzzle which has no solution using my mental model of the rules for those pieces.

This one is a little tricky but fairly easy compared to the other two you listed. Just keep trying. The symmetry in the puzzle implies the solution will involve symmetry in your line.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

I have had ideas about what the REAL rules for stars and blue squares might be, but they've all been wrong so far (obviously). I'm not asking what those rules are (looks like someone has a guide posted with exactly that), but in the opinion of people who have either worked them out for themselves or looked them up, should I bother? I feel like the designer should have made the real rules slightly more discoverable...

Your rules don't seem to be wrong. The way I see it, you've hit a bit of a wall where despite properly understanding the rules you have a handful of puzzles that you haven't been able to solve. I would keep pushing until you eventually get past that wall. I think you will regret giving in at this point. Also know there are a LOT of extra puzzles still left to discover. You've probably seen the one-way doors under the theatre and other locations. Once you push through the wall of solving the puzzles that seem impossible to do you right now and discover how to access more of the game, you will be very happy that you didn't give up. Also, your patience in investigating and properly understanding all of the important rules will be rewarded by a certain challenge. Just keep playing, don't worry if the hours rack up. It's time well spent in my opinion.

P.S. Without spoiling anything, have you found the other type of puzzle in the game besides panel puzzles? If not, you still have a lot to discover!

[MASTAN]

If you're fan of puzzle games then better find solutions yourself. I did, thought it took me about 53 hours to fully clear this game. There are no broken puzzles in this game(at least in mine experience), but there are many tricky and hard ones. You need to think out of the box more often than not.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

Two puzzles which come to mind are the multicolored star puzzle in the village, the one on the bell tower door which has three magenta and three red stars.

Somewhere on the island there are other color puzzles that are not solvable directly. Find them first if you haven't already. Small hint: activate all lasers first, then you've definitely solved them. Can't say anything more to not spoil the solution.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

The other puzzle I'm grinding my teeth at is the door on the shore behind the desert temple.

Took me long to solve. Had to use pen & paper, unlike most of the puzzles. You need to clearly understand what those blue squares do first. And even when you know all the rules then it won't be easy in any way.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

There's also the right side door on the exit from the underground home theater into the village, the one with the four black squares and the four orange corner pieces. A very simple puzzle which has no solution using my mental model of the rules for those pieces.

The solution is simple indeed. Dunno what to tell to not spoil it.

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

Then of course there's things like the shipwreck puzzle which apparently even people who have solved it don't have a consensus on the rules that make the solution valid.

I did it with a little trial and error. There are not too many possible solutions if you disregard dots sizes and know all the other rules needed.

I have had ideas about what the REAL rules for stars and blue squares might be, but they've all been wrong so far (obviously). I'm not asking what those rules are (looks like someone has a guide posted with exactly that), but in the opinion of people who have either worked them out for themselves or looked them up, should I bother? I feel like the designer should have made the real rules slightly more discoverable...

The rules are quite simple themselves. Blue squares are more obvious though. Their shape itself is a hint.
Stars are not that obvious, their shape has nothing to do with the rule. I had to redo those basic puzzles in certain area several times until it hit me.

[Electric Donkey]

Originally posted by Catgirl Jessica:

P.S. Without spoiling anything, have you found the other type of puzzle in the game besides panel puzzles? If not, you still have a lot to discover!

I see mentions of "environmental puzzles" and I don't know what that means. I certainly know about the obelisks and how to light them up, but I read in the "How many endings are there?" thread that those don't unlock any other content.

Maybe the treehouse area is an environmental puzzle... I certainly can't figure out how to get into the room with the laser, in spite of having solved all of the panel puzzles I can reach starting from the boat landing. I tried looking for ways to unlock that door from the inside (can't quite get the whole lock in my line of sight) and tried to find a vantage point closer to the door where I could use the remote lock in the fuscia tree from far away, but I couldn't find one.

Thanks to all for the replies.

[MASTAN]

Environmental puzzles are what obelisks show.

Hint for treehouse area: some panels have several exit points. This matters.

[Electric Donkey]

Thanks for the hint regarding the treehouse area. Got that laser on now.

I went back to the swamp and looked at ALL the puzzles and saw what I apparently had forgotten about blue squares. Feel like I was tricked though, since the puzzles with the blue squares outside the captured area (in their own section, it was either the blue water or the red water) go so quickly compared to the puzzles with the blue squares inside the captured area (in the cyan water, which you do later) - I spent so much more time on those in the cyan water that I managed to forget about the first behavior the game demonstrated. I was able to open the door on the beach after that.

Knowing that I had the rules for stars right freed me from the mental trap I was stuck in. When I went back and noticed the color of the door nearby I realized that wasn't just put there randomly...

That puzzle was vexing, but I for the most part I appreciated the "flawed clues" in the game, like the last apple-in-the-tree series and some of the things going on in the red tree temple.

I think I only have one laser to go, the one in the village. And only one door on the tower left to open. I guess it's less aggravating when you have more puzzles you can go look at. Now I only have a handful so when I get stuck on a puzzle the only way I can get a break from it is to leave the game for a while.

Thanks for the gentle guidance.

[Catgirl Jessica]

Originally posted by Electric Donkey:

I went back to the swamp and looked at ALL the puzzles and saw what I apparently had forgotten about blue squares. Feel like I was tricked though, since the puzzles with the blue squares outside the captured area (in their own section, it was either the blue water or the red water) go so quickly compared to the puzzles with the blue squares inside the captured area (in the cyan water, which you do later) - I spent so much more time on those in the cyan water that I managed to forget about the first behavior the game demonstrated. I was able to open the door on the beach after that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "inside" vs. "outside"; isn't it all relative? What's not inside of one area is going to be inside of another. Rather than thinking about it like that, I think it's useful to think of your line as creating isolated 'zones' where the pieces in each zone must satisfy all of their respective rules, but each zone can be treated independently. Most often your line creates only two zones, which you might be referring to as "inside" and "outside", but that need not be the case in many puzzles. For example: in my solution to the desert door http://i.imgur.com/Sdvvus9.png there are 4 zones, two of which are empty, one that satisfies the rules for the blue squares, and the other that satisfies the remaining tetris piece.

In any case, the blue squares don't behave differently depending on which zone they are in and all three swamp stairwell rooms deal with the same concept that builds on itself. I suppose if you spent most of your time in the cyan room and not the other two you might have forgotten the puzzles that had a similar approach as the desert door - namely the 3rd and 4th puzzles in the red room. Anyway, I'm glad you figured it out. Good luck with the rest of the game!