Why the hell this game is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pretentious?

[ook]

It's just too much for me really. I've seen a statue that was reaching to a golden chalice on top of a shelf. SYMBOLISM! And audio tapes I found so far are just quotes from people waay smarter than Jonathan. HOW ABOUT AN ACTUAL PLOT INSTEAD OF THIS NON-SENSE?!

How am I supposed to be engaged in the empty world with nothing in it, but beautiful landscapes and puzzles? No story, no plot, no antagonist, no driving force. So far I activated 3 lasers and I digged around in other 4 puzzle sections so I completed more than half at this point and the only reason to go forward is to see a probably lame and pretentious ending that (oooh so artsy) mirrows the beginning puzzle.

Those puzzles are also needlessly brutal and very fu(c)king cryptic.

The main problem with the witness is that it's set in a 3d world and a gorgeous one, but the puzzles aren't spacial. In portal all puzzles more or less follow physics that's why it's easy to understand them and the discovery of how it works was really satisfying. There puzzles are very arbitrary and disconnected from the real world. Again in portal the fact that portals carry your momentum was verbally explained and it makes sense and it is very satisfying to perform those jumps. In the witness you see a 2d grid with some arbitrary symbol and you have no idea what it does. In most puzzles you are told how it works and then given a few easy puzzles. In the witness you can complete tutorial and still don't get how it works and in that case tough sh(i)t.

Landscapes are gorgeous, but so they are in proteus, the puzzles are hard but so they are in "hook" for ios. Too few puzzles interact with 3d world in any way and most of the time those could be simple buttons.

This dissonance between game world and puzzle is the biggest sin of this game hands down. Puzzle agent did the same thing much better FFS. Point and click style works well with puzzles and exploring and talking to people. Puzzles also were much more diverse and creative with all sorts of different challenges and a finite amount of hints if you got stuck. There is also actual humour, plot, characters, voice acting and even a little bit of lovecraftian mystery. All without being pretentious.

I haven't played Talo's princible yet, but at least it's spacial and not 2d puzzles. And from trailers it seems less pretentious than the witness even though it openly about philosophy and stuff.

Even his own game braid didn't have that problem, because puzzles meshed well with game world. And it was an interesting spin on platformers. And it was spacial. And it was more linear which is a good thing, because far too often in the witness you see an arbitrary shape as part of a puzzle, but you stumbled at this place before you completed "tutorial" for it.

Also technical execution is very bad for a 3d game.

I haven't played Talo's princible yet, but at least it's spacial and not 2d puzzles. And from trailers it seems less pretentious than the witness even though it openly about philosophy and stuff.

Even his own game braid didn't have that problem, because puzzles meshed well with game world. And it was an iteresing spin on platformers. And it was spacial. And it was more linear which is a good thing, because far too often in the witness you see an arbitrary shape as part of a puzlle, but you stumbled at this place before you completed "tutorial" for it.

Also technicall execution is very bad for a 3d game.

[Snorlax Is H4x]

That's a lot of thesaurus work to say "I don't like games without a story!".

[Curious Duck]

"Box" -> Tries to fit in box -> can't fit -> shouts at game

You do realise the team created their own engine to run the game on?

I've had my laugh for today reading through the first two paragraphs of OPs satirical rant.

[ook]

Originally posted by Snorlax Is H4x:

That's a lot of thesaurus work to say "I don't like games without a story!".

Half-life had good plot and good action. Doom doesn't have any story and doesn't pretend that it has one. Undertale has a simple story at first but it actually hides an emotional meta-narrative that strikes in all the right spots.

The witness pretends like it has story but it sounds much smarter than it actually is.

[Pothocket]

The only 'pretending' going on here is you pretending you know what you're talking about. The gameplay is far far more than just '2D puzzles'. Trust me, the puzzles mesh with the game world just fine.

[ook]

Originally posted by Pothocket:

The only 'pretending' going on here is you pretending you know what you're talking about. The gameplay is far far more than just '2D puzzles'. Trust me, the puzzles mesh with the game world just fine.

If by "mesh" you mean sometimes you observe world and then solve a puzzle then yeah, but it's rare and you still have to solve the puzzle.

[Pothocket]

It's not rare. Stop trying to tell people what the game is like. I've been to quite a few areas where the puzzle is solved in the environment and the panel is just used to input the answer.

And why do you say it like that, "still have to solve the puzzle"? Of course you do, this is a puzzle game! If the thought of solving puzzles seems like a chore than of course this isn't the game for you.

[ook]

Again you miss my point. It's not about how connected world and puzzles are, it's the fact that they are separate to begin with. In portal you have the world building, the narrator and the puzzle at the same time in a whole 3d world. You use portals to traverse through the enviroment that tells non-pretentious stories by itself, while listening to an interesting, intimidating and funny all at the same time Glados.

Puzzle agent (a much better game in every aspect) has 2d puzzles interrupting a point and click style game. And even there puzzles felt more connected to the world because what you solve in a puzzle actually moved plot and puzzles made sense. You need to plan your way through the city using logs (stupid but still), you want info from waitress so you help her sort out the dishes between customers, number of your room in the hotel is in cypher so you gotta crack it, you help insane person to rearrange his thoughts (again stupid, but it's funny and related to the situation).

Both portal and puzzle agent feel consistent with how world and puzzles relate to each other.

Witness is just a pack of puzzles barely connected to 3d world they are in, without any story or characters. For 40 bucks. Hook on ios is also a pack of abstract logic puzzles with one core rule that is sold for 1$, so arguement "I bought it for puzzles and nothing else" doesn't work.

Let's be fu(c)king honest the witness could've been a point and click adventure with pre-rendered backgrounds. You'd barely need to change any puzzles. The only problem is that moments where you need to position yourself just right would be more obvious. It's still possible though. And probably would've made price much more reasonable.

Portal was originally in a bundle with episode 2 and teamfortress 2. And it had infinite amount of puzzles thx to user generated content. As well as actual characters and voice acting.

[Pothocket]

I don't think you know how a conversation works. Hint: it doesn't involving inserting snide remarks like "a much better game in every aspect" that doesn't add anything to the conversation and just serves to derail the topic into a bunch of opinionated attacks on each others games

your game is dumb

"No, your game is dumb!"

That's not going to get us anywhere. And you can't state at the beginning that "it's not about how connected the puzzles are" in response to my post, but then continue to insist elsewhere in your reply that puzzles are "barely connected to the 3D world". It tells me you're just outright ignoring what I'm trying to tell you and I don't see any reason to continue this conversation.

so git gud kid

[ook]

Oh no you out-meta'ed me!

Seriously though it was a snarky remark about puzzle agent being "better in every way", but I really subjectively feel like it and I did enjoy it 10x more than witness overall. I did not expect to have much "fun" with the witness and it was not promised so it's not a game's fault, but the fact still stands.

Please don't talk about the witness like a piece of post modern art, that you are not supposed to enjoy or anything, because it isn't. The tapes really have nothing to do with what's going on in the game at that moment and I would pretty much call it fluff. I also spoiled myself the ending and it's about as pretentious as it could get really. Probably there is a meaning, but it's more likely "open to interpritation" which automatically makes it immune to critisim as we know.

The game is still puzzles, landscapes and philosophycal fluff all loosely connected into a 40$ package. They are linked, but not inseparateable. Which I really poorly explained earlier.

I also really find the witness overpiced as hell. You can get undertale for 10$! The only real justification for the price is the amount of time and effort put into it overall, but if you compare it to any AAA game, then you really can't defend this price. I am pretty sure you could get witcher 3 for a similar price at one point on steam, so yeah. Price is absolute bull crap.

Originally posted by Pothocket:

That's not going to get us anywhere. And you can't state at the beginning that "it's not about how connected the puzzles are" in response to my post, but then continue to insist elsewhere in your reply that puzzles are "barely connected to the 3D world".

About that... I really poorly phrased that, but my point is that to the core 3d world and puzzles are completely separate. Developers did link them and more than once or twice especially in the final level (that I did not reach when writing original post), I admit that I was underselling it. But can you imagine portal as a different genre? I can't, but I certaintly can with witness though. A very good chunk of puzzles like 60-80% could be played entirely on 2d plane with no difference to experience. Even when puzzles impact 3d world they are usually followed by a "pack" of 3-4 related puzzles that are just road blocks before you open the door or something. A good example is the "quarry" laser.

I feel that 2d puzzles and 3d world don't mesh together quite as much. Especially if you compare it to portal or something. It is a valid criticism of the game at least for me. And other puzzle games that I really love (braid included) don't have that problem.

What is a valid critisim for everyone is that game is a technical mess. It's not early access and it's not cheap so please fix it. I get that changing FoV would break certain sections and the default one seemed OK, but it still sucks that you can't change it. Even the little pre launch window has very piss poor options. They also somehow broke shadows on amd cards, which they swiftly fixed, but it still affected me.

[Ashabel]

Originally posted by MelonCat |SaltFruit.FFA|:

Oh no you out-meta'ed me!

They didn't meta anything. They just called you extremely self-absorbed and lacking in social aptitude, which you proceeded to demonstrate with your next comment. A conversation implies that people share their opinions on something--an exchange of feelings and thoughts.

It doesn't mean you cram a huge pile of opinions down someone's throat until they choke to death.

You can have all the opinions on the game if you want, but your presentation of them is so pigheaded and socially inept that nothing you say works as an argument. It's just a wall of text that drives people away from giving you attention.

[Alcator]

Originally posted by MelonCat |SaltFruit.FFA|:

It's not about how connected world and puzzles are, it's the fact that they are separate to begin with.

Sheesh... You are going to feel really really stupid the first time you notice/do THE THING.

[ook]

Originally posted by Alcator:

Sheesh... You are going to feel really really stupid the first time you notice/do THE THING.

If by that you mean that sometimes you can draw lines on the world itself and activate obelisks, then it has nothing to do with my point. It's not a puzzle. You only need to stand in a right spot and draw a simple line.

It only proves my point if anything. It could've been a clue to solve a puzzle (instead of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ solution like you get it most of the time), or actually interact with anything world, but no. You get to a high place draw a couple of lines, see it shine, and then proceed to actual puzzles that are as disconnected from the world as they come and take actual time.

[Pothocket]

Please stop trying to explain the game to those who are playing it. It's really embarrassing. The obelisks stuff is spoilers and hidden side puzzles, not the main ones.

Besides, for the main puzzles (not the hidden ones)
A: If I have to stand in a certain spot it's often a puzzle to figure out where to stand. And even then information will often be missing and I have to use logic to complete it

B: There are many more interactions types than just knowing where to stand{/spoiler]

[Z-Nine]

The fact your are comparing this game to portal, a well defined linear puzzle game/campaign, shows you had totally different expectations coming into this. The two are so vastly different.

To tell people they are wrong for enjoying these sorts of games is a type of pretentious that goes beyond anything you are trying to portray.

Edit: Fixed phone autocorrect

[ook]

Originally posted by Zolkowski:

The fact your are comparing this game to portal, a well defined linear puzzle game/campaign, shows you had totally different expectations coming into this. The two are so vastly different.

That's fair enough, but trailers literally show you the island and nothing else. If they were fair about it they would show a guy stare at a puzzle screen struggling to solve a poorly explained puzzle with tetris pieces for 10 minutes and then solve another one in the same room.

Portal also has characters, character motivations, plot, music, sense of pacing, sound effects, humour and you actually solve your puzzles in first person.

If you want me to compare it to another game then the vanishing of ethan carther is pretty good too. The world is argueably more pretty thx to a VERY realistic look far beyond uncanny valley (yes it's 2 different styles, but still). Every puzzle is only used once to keep it fresh and you also solved them in first person. Fast travel doesn't suck balls. The main character's voice is a lot of fun. Your character actually presented as a detective so mystery makes sense and helps the story. Twist at the end is actually pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sad and makes you think about the whole game differently. To be fair it's 3 hours long and I was aware of that when I bought it (and it also costs less even though the enviroment is bigger overall and costs more to make).

I was actually expecting myst-ish vanishing of ethan carther-ish game where you solve maze puzzles. I don't think that this is an unreasonable expectation given the trailers and the marketing of this game. Blind praising from every critic alive also made me think that this game gonna be enjoyable and good.

Oh silly me.