Loved Talos Principle; found Antichamber unsatisfying; would I like The Witness?

[Knight who says Ni]

Absolutely loved Talos Principle, had a great story which made me want to keep playing and consistent mechanics with its items which encouraged you to use them in different ways (apart from two of the star ones, I'm sure people who have played it will know the ones I mean!)

Didn't get any satisfaction from Antichamber's puzzles as it felt as though there was no consistency between different things, ie a block would behave one way in one puzzle and then act totally differently in another. I just didn't get that wave of satisfaction from working out a solution after being stumped for a while like with Talos Principle and Portal 1 and 2.

So where would you say The Witness falls on this scale?

[Mars]

It most certainly does have a story.

[eys]

Originally posted by Dazza:

Absolutely loved Talos Principle, had a great story which made me want to keep playing and consistent mechanics with its items which encouraged you to use them in different ways (apart from two of the star ones, I'm sure people who have played it will know the ones I mean!)

Didn't get any satisfaction from Antichamber's puzzles as it felt as though there was no consistency between different things, ie a block would behave one way in one puzzle and then act totally differently in another. I just didn't get that wave of satisfaction from working out a solution after being stumped for a while like with Talos Principle and Portal 1 and 2.

So where would you say The Witness falls on this scale?

If it was the story that kept you playing Talos, you may not like The Witness. There is hardly any story in the The Witness. The game is puzzle after puzzle after puzzle. Your reward for solving a puzzle is more puzzles. The game is also huge, while you can "beat" the game in around 15-20 hours, there is so much extra stuff you can expect anywhere between 40-80 hours depending on how much you do (and if you never resort to a guide).

It can get very difficult, there is no hand holding or instructions and at the same time it is never about trial and error. Since the game is open world, you can always look around for other puzzles if you get really stuck.

And yes, it's always consistent. If you think the game is wrong, then you didn't understand the rules. This is important as the game is built around learning this puzzle language.

If this sounds good, give it a shot!

[Pckables]

Originally posted by Gaius Marius:

Originally posted by Mad Mike Marsbergen:

It most certainly does have a story.

It has a narrative, not a story. They aren't the same thing.

According to the dictionary, they are the same thing.
and I didn't see the game actively trying to get the player to not believe in creation, or anything of the sort, but take from it what you want.

On topic:
The Witness WILL have puzzles the stump you for a long time. The only difference is that it gives you the option to do something else and come back later.
While the puzzles are consistant, they require the player to figure out the mechanics themselves. You get puzzles that will act as a tutorial, but you are never told how they work through words.

Simply put, the Witness is a great game if you get satisfaction from figuring out and solving sometimes complex puzzles and problems by yourself. There is very little reward aside from that.
If you don't like getting stumped, you probably won't like The Witness.

(Also you WILL have issues if you are colorblind or deaf, as there are a series of puzzles that require color/sound)

[Knight who says Ni]

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Snorlax Is H4x]

I think you might be misunderstanding anti-chamber, while the environment is non-Euclidean, the block puzzle logic is consistent. I'm guessing you gave up before you really understood it. The blocks do behave consistently, it's just that their behaviors are not all apparent immediately. The "ah ha" moments come when you figure out that "oh the blue blocks can also do this!". Usually you figure this out when you come to a puzzle that seems impossible and forces you to try something new.

[ngaivictor]

I Love Talos Principle and Antichamber, but not witness, the puzzle in witness Is based on alot of different rule add together, very complex rules, there is no uniform principle, not that elegant.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by ngaivictor:

I Love Talos Principle and Antichamber, but not witness, the puzzle in witness Is based on alot of different rule add together, very complex rules, there is no uniform principle, not that elegant.

There are only about 15 rules in The Witness, and they aren't that complex. With perhaps two exceptions, I believe each rule can be described in a single sentence of less than 20 words.

What _is_ complex, is the process of figuring the rules out. In the other two games you mentioned, once you had figured a rule out, you could stay with that knowledge until the end of the game. In The Witness, most likely your first understanding of a given rule is not 100% correct. It will work for simple puzzles, but eventually you'll encounter a puzzle that you can't solve with your current understanding of the rules. Then you experiment further, perhaps go back to earlier puzzles and try alternative solutions, until you arrive at a better understanding of that rule which will work for more puzzles.

Some people enjoy the journey of achieving a better understanding by continuously refining one's understanding of the rules. Other people prefer to just being told the rules and then applying them. It's a preference thing.

[Joe Hendrey]

You've probably made a decision by this point, but for anyone else coming to this for answers, the likely answer is if you enjoyed Talos and didn't enjoy Antichamber, you probably won't enjoy The Witness. It is imho a much better game than both of those, but the reasons it's good/I like it are possibly not things you look for in a puzzle game.

It is consistent, fair, and builds on rules/mechanics in a much more interesting and deep way than Talos (once again, imho). But my memory of Anti-chamber was that it was consistent with its rules as well.

It has:
- beautiful art direction
- clever puzzles
- logical progression of ideas
- good sound design

It doesn't have:
- a traditional story/narrative
- rewards for completing puzzles
- music

[inappropriately_gendered_fungus]

Story: Antichamber doesn't have much of a story to speak of, but its gameplay sort of fits a traditional narrative structure. The Talos Principle's story is more traditional, but is usually told through out-of-sequence lore. I really enjoyed Talos in this regard. The Witness doesn't have a traditional narrative, but it does have bits of text and speech. You may or may not find something narratively gratifying in The Witness, but it really depends on your attitude towards games and media in general. I didn't care for what The Witness has to say.

Puzzles: The Witness and The Talos Principle are a bit similar in this regard. They focus on a small set of mechanics and puzzle types and try to use them to their fullest extent. Antichamber, while logically consistent, is a bit more broad and random in terms of the puzzles you encounter. The puzzles in The Talos Principle are spatial and logical, whereas the Puzzles in The Witness are mostly just logical. I'm torn on whether The Witness or Talos has the better puzzles, but The Witness certainly has a lot more.

World: Antichamber's non-euclidean world was interesting to explore and gratifying to understand. The stark visuals gave it a unique feel. The Talos Principle's world was vast, but kind of bland and the realistic graphics, though generally pretty, don't do much to help. The Witness is gorgeous looking and has a good deal of environmental variation. It's packed with things to look at, though most of it has no impact on the gameplay. All this stuff is like an invitation to the player to think about the space they're in and what things mean. Again, mileage will vary.



NOTE: If you like the style of puzzles in The Witness and The Talos Principle and can deal with a severe challenge, you should check out Stephen's Sausage Roll. Jonathan Blow himself loves it and it's possibly the best puzzle game I've played.

[ngaivictor]

Originally posted by Psyringe:

Originally posted by ngaivictor:

I Love Talos Principle and Antichamber, but not witness, the puzzle in witness Is based on alot of different rule add together, very complex rules, there is no uniform principle, not that elegant.

There are only about 15 rules in The Witness, and they aren't that complex. With perhaps two exceptions, I believe each rule can be described in a single sentence of less than 20 words.

What _is_ complex, is the process of figuring the rules out. In the other two games you mentioned, once you had figured a rule out, you could stay with that knowledge until the end of the game. In The Witness, most likely your first understanding of a given rule is not 100% correct. It will work for simple puzzles, but eventually you'll encounter a puzzle that you can't solve with your current understanding of the rules. Then you experiment further, perhaps go back to earlier puzzles and try alternative solutions, until you arrive at a better understanding of that rule which will work for more puzzles.

Some people enjoy the journey of achieving a better understanding by continuously refining one's understanding of the rules. Other people prefer to just being told the rules and then applying them. It's a preference thing.

15 rules add together aren't 15 rules, and some rules have grey area.
that rules just like math formula, you don't know what it is, & why, but you need to use it to solve the problem without any reason.

In Talos Principle, you know when you have solve the puzzle.
In The Witness, you don't know even when you have solve the puzzle.

In the witness, when you get the answer, you need to prove is right.
(just like math)

[inappropriately_gendered_fungus]

Originally posted by ngaivictor:

In Talos Principle, you know when you have solve the puzzle.
In The Witness, you don't know even when you have solve the puzzle.

The Witness does make it clear when you've solved a puzzle. Some puzzles just have multiple solutions.

[ZiGGY^]

The Witness is an experience that is very deliberate and interwoven, it's not difficult, but it doesn't hold your hand and you're just left to explore by yourself. I enjoyed it a lot and found it beautiful.

The Talos Principle is probably my favourite puzzle game of all time. This game is very different and expects you to approach it differently, there's little direct narrative but the world is rich and the game still poses you questions.

I personally never liked Antichamber, the game was easily broken and there was no resolution (damn you, purple blocks!) This game has a few loose ends and some of the messages it gave me weren't what I wanted, but it also has very satisfying closure at points.

I really liked this game, but it's not for everyone. Although great effort is made to diversify the puzzles, I can see the way they are presented and the general design of how people are supposed to progress could be grating to some.

[Drothen]

Talos principle is better than portal.

[Cotton Eye Jonii-chan]

Originally posted by fungusdude4:

Originally posted by ngaivictor:

In Talos Principle, you know when you have solve the puzzle.
In The Witness, you don't know even when you have solve the puzzle.

The Witness does make it clear when you've solved a puzzle. Some puzzles just have multiple solutions.

I think he actually hit the nail on the head, albeit with some clunky words. He means that the act of solving the puzzle in Witness doesn't mean you understood how the puzzle operated. Some of them are fairly easy to brute force with a few mins, or even have some idea of how the rules work without understanding them fully. In TP (as iterated before) you basically always know why your solution works, which just isn't the case in Witness.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by LegalChickenTender:

Originally posted by fungusdude4:

The Witness does make it clear when you've solved a puzzle. Some puzzles just have multiple solutions.

I think he actually hit the nail on the head, albeit with some clunky words. He means that the act of solving the puzzle in Witness doesn't mean you understood how the puzzle operated. Some of them are fairly easy to brute force with a few mins, or even have some idea of how the rules work without understanding them fully. In TP (as iterated before) you basically always know why your solution works, which just isn't the case in Witness.

I don't think The Witness and The Talos Principle are that different in that regard.

Both games provide puzzles that have multiple solutions. In both games, what looks like "the solution" at first, may have to be rethought later on. In The Witness, solving a puzzle one way will let you progress, but you may have to solve it a different way later on to get to another area. In Talos Principle, solving a puzzle one way will allow you to grab the tetromino and progress the story, but you may have to solve it a different way if you also want the star. (Keep in mind that getting some of the stars requires complex out-of-the-box thinking, like redirecting laser beams from a different puzzle across half the map. I don't see a fundamental difference there.

If anything, The Witness gives you _more_ feedback than Talos Principle, because in some puzzles you have red symbols flashing to show you exactly what didn't work. In Talos Principle, you never get told explicitly what didn't work (though it's also usually clear from the context, so not necessary).

The main difference in the implementation of these "multiple solution" puzzles may be that they are more optional in Talos Principle - you only need to think about them if you want to get the stars, which are the "optional challenges" in that game. In The Witness, understanding multiple solutions and how they affect the world is an integral part of the game's progress.