Puzzle rules change? (minor spoiler)

[soopytwist]

I'm really having a hard time with the puzzles so much so that I've already had to resort to YT, simply because I'm baffled by this games rules governing some of the puzzles.

I understand how the tetris puzzles work, I figured that out myself initially though I wasn't sure so had to look it up to see if I was right. However the rules don't make any sense. For one puzzle my solution works, apply that mentality to another and it doesn't work.

Case in point
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858054924
I can fit both tetris pieces into the shapes I've drawn and yet this solution doesn't work. Apply this same rule to a similar puzzle and it does work (i.e mentally rotating the tetris piece to fill the available space created by the drawn lines.

No wonder I'm finding most of this games puzzles hard when it changes the rules like this for seemingly no logical reason.

EDIT

Used wrong screenshot so just changed it. The other one didn't work because the tetris piece wasn't rotated but rather flipped. The above screenshot follows the rule set but doesn't work and I have no idea why.

[MASTAN]

These pieces should appear exactly as they're painted. The ones you can rotate are drawn as slanted.

[eys]

Have you completed all of the marsh? That is the area that teaches you everything about these types of puzzles. For example, do you know the difference between a tilted shape and non-tilted shape?

The game isn't changing rules on you, you're just not understanding them.

Answer: You can't rotate any tetris piece unless the shape is tilted.

[svatem1]

man, those rules are dead logical; period
you don't know the rules, it's the gameplay to deduce them, being able to solve the puzzles is just a consequence of it

what actually happenned is you coincidentally solved one puzzle via your incorrect logic by luck and next time you tried to use the same incorrect logic, it failed; now try to get some info from this = you can trust more the soundness of the puzzle system than you can your deductions

[soopytwist]

I see. No I did not find the marsh first. This game does a good job of not showing you how a puzzle works if you're in the wrong place. It should have been designed to present each kind of puzzle before embarking on the rest but the open world nature of the map doesn't make this possible.

I had to skip this puzzle to look for the marsh. Now I'm there and part the way accross I'm stuck because I can't solve two puzzles and there's no way back to go somewhere else.

Originally posted by svatem1:

...= you can trust more the soundness of the puzzle system than you can your deductions

That ​literately makes absolutely no sense.

[eys]

Originally posted by soopytwist:

I see. No I did not find the marsh first. This game does a good job of not showing you how a puzzle works if you're in the wrong place. It should have been designed to present each kind of puzzle before embarking on the rest but the open world nature of the map doesn't make this possible.

I had to skip this puzzle to look for the marsh. Now I'm there and part the way accross I'm stuck because I can't solve two puzzles and there's no way back to go somewhere else.

A good rule of thumb to follow is if there is a symbol on a panel that you haven't seen before and you can't solve it right away, there is probably a tutorial elsewhere. If there is no symbol on the panel and you can't solve it, then it's on you why you can't figure it out.

Anyway, where are you stuck? There should always be a way back, what happened to the way you came in?

[Catgirl Jessica]

Originally posted by soopytwist:

I see. No I did not find the marsh first. This game does a good job of not showing you how a puzzle works if you're in the wrong place. It should have been designed to present each kind of puzzle before embarking on the rest but the open world nature of the map doesn't make this possible.

I guess that's the consequence of making the game non-linear. Some easy-looking puzzles that are in fact not easy will frustrate players who think the solution should be easy. However, you need to play by the game's rules and not vice-versa. When you say "I understand how the tetris puzzles work, I figured that out myself initially" raises huge red flags. Figuring out how something works in this game hardly ever happens on the first attempt, or independent of completing the area that teaches you a specific mechanic (in this case, the Marsh). Even when doing so, the game is cleverly designed to mislead players into assuming a rule to be true only to have the next puzzle completely invalidate said rule. Good examples of this are the Tree House and Quarry areas. To me those areas are the most logical, yet the most misleading with their logic at first glance.

Originally posted by soopytwist:

I had to skip this puzzle to look for the marsh. Now I'm there and part the way accross I'm stuck because I can't solve two puzzles and there's no way back to go somewhere else.

Yes there is a way to go back. The platform that moved you to the right can also move you back to the left via the opposite solution.

You say "I had to skip this puzzle" like that's somehow a negative thing. You'll have to skip plenty of puzzles and the sooner to stop assuming that every puzzle should be solvable at first glance, the more the enjoyable the game will be for you.

Also, I just want to warn you about something down the road. If you only want to get to the 'ending' of the game and that's it, then carry on. But if you are planning to complete this game in its entirety and get both achievements there is a certain challenge in the endgame that is going to be much harder for players who looked up solutions and therefore don't have a firm grasp of the rules. If that sounds annoying, then do yourself a favor and stop looking things up on Youtube otherwise you're going to have a near impossible task ahead of you.

If I were you, I'd get off YT and Steam forums and just play the game. You're only a couple hours in... it's totally normal at this point to be stuck on a puzzle for hours. Walk away and go back later. Keep notes about puzzles that you found but couldn't solve yet, so you know where to go back later. The more you invest in the game the more you'll get your money's worth. I don't like to say things like "you're playing it wrong" very often, but essentially that's what it boils down to. The whole essence of The Witness is about the satisfaction of solving problems. Having the solutions given to you robs you of that, and if that's the case, what's the point of playing?

[MASTAN]

This game is a puzzle in many, many ways. Figuring out what to do, finding tutorial puzzles, realizing the existence of environmental puzzles, figuring out that different solutions in the same puzzle can lead to different effects, nonstandart approach here and there... That makes this game so great.

At least I was able to figure all mechanics and solve all puzzles that could find(520 atm) without help. 43 hours of playtime. Still looking for the the rest of puzzles(probably 3 are stilll missing) and lots of environmental ones.

The Challenge was... evil. Took about 20 attempts, I think.

For those looking for more linear puzzle game I suggest Talos Principle.

[soopytwist]

Originally posted by MASTAN:

...For those looking for more linear puzzle game I suggest Talos Principle.

Yes, I really enjoyed Talos Principle a lot. If a puzzle had me stumped I'd just experiment until something clicked - sometimes solving a puzzle in a slightly different way than what was designed. I think I had to look online only about four times for some particularly evil puzzles.

The Witness doesn't really offer that same type of experimentation. Either you get the one and only solution right or you don't solve it at all.

Originally posted by soopytwist:

...Yes there is a way to go back. The platform that moved you to the right can also move you back to the left via the opposite solution.

Ah, I was just re-doing the same solution expecting the platform to move again, I didn't realize I had to reverse it!

[Catgirl Jessica]

Originally posted by soopytwist:

Ah, I was just re-doing the same solution expecting the platform to move again, I didn't realize I had to reverse it!

The panel is actually a visual representation of the moving platform itself. When you solve it with the horizontal piece to the right, it moves to the right. When you solve it to the left, it moves to the left.

[soopytwist]

What about this platform:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858643998
I rotated it to get across but I think I need to rotate it back to solve the enviroment puzzle underneath it in the water. But the puzzle appears to be impossible in reverse.

[MASTAN]

Originally posted by soopytwist:

What about this platform:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858643998
I rotated it to get across but I think I need to rotate it back to solve the enviroment puzzle underneath it in the water. But the puzzle appears to be impossible in reverse.

Hint: this puzzle has 3 different solutions that result in 3 different configurations of bridges.

[soopytwist]

Originally posted by MASTAN:

Originally posted by soopytwist:

What about this platform:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858643998
I rotated it to get across but I think I need to rotate it back to solve the enviroment puzzle underneath it in the water. But the puzzle appears to be impossible in reverse.

Hint: this puzzle has 3 different solutions that result in 3 different configurations of bridges.

But any other combination is impossible unless the rules for the tretris puzzles are scrapped.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858680896

[MASTAN]

No, there is more.
Hint: turn one of the 3-square pieces by 90 degrees

[Catgirl Jessica]

Originally posted by soopytwist:

Originally posted by MASTAN:

Hint: this puzzle has 3 different solutions that result in 3 different configurations of bridges.

But any other combination is impossible unless the rules for the tretris puzzles are scrapped.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858680896

The 1x3 pieces are slanted.

[soopytwist]

Originally posted by Catgirl Jessica:

Originally posted by soopytwist:

But any other combination is impossible unless the rules for the tretris puzzles are scrapped.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858680896

The 1x3 pieces are slanted.

Oh FFS. Why didn't I see that?!