Is it just me, or are flamethrowers currently too weak?

[Marcus Scholasticus]

Flamethrowers cost 30 supplies, which is 3 times the cost of 1 regular infantry regiment.
At the same time, flamethrowers require a lot of research and are therefore in competition with tanks or better aircraft.

When attacking enemy trenches, the special flame attack rarely works. Most of the time, they go straight into melee combat. As a result, they lose men very quickly.
It is far more effective to use regular soldiers to attack. these are cheaper and have more men in the unit, making them more useful in the long run.

Flamethrowers are also not cost-effective when defending your own trenches.
Although they use their flame attack relatively reliably, normal soldiers are still better suited to defend.
They simply have a longer range, can be used more flexibly and are cheaper.

In my opinion, flamethrowers would be more useful if the special flame attack was used during melee combat inside the trenches.
This expensive unit would then be useful for clearing trenches of enemy units.
The melee in the trenches is currently very monotonous, a special elite unit with flame attack could make this a little more exciting.

What do you think?

[Cronos341]

historically speaking, flamethrowers were used in ww1 to mop up trenchs after the main infantry assult. think about it. if you sent in the flamethrower first, and IF he survived to the trench and used said flamethrower, infantry would not be able to take said trench. mainly cause it would be on fire. so idk about flamers using their weapons in the trench. maybe add in pistols that elite infantry, and special units like flamethrowers, and raiders can use in the trench rather than just melee?

[Marcus Scholasticus]

Originally posted by Cronos341:

historically speaking, flamethrowers were used in ww1 to mop up trenchs after the main infantry assult. think about it. if you sent in the flamethrower first, and IF he survived to the trench and used said flamethrower, infantry would not be able to take said trench. mainly cause it would be on fire. so idk about flamers using their weapons in the trench. maybe add in pistols that elite infantry, and special units like flamethrowers, and raiders can use in the trench rather than just melee?

Historically speaking you are absolutely right! It would be utterly suicidal to use a flamethrower in a trench.

My concerns are more about gameplay and balancing.
Customers expect a flamethrower to do its job (burning the enemy). Unfortunately, this flame attack is not performed reliably in the game.
At the same time, the unit is very expensive and therefore not cost-effective.

Adding pistols and improving the melee value would certainly benefit the unit performance, but the flame attack would still be carried out too rarely.

[Yuithgf]

yeah ngl i'm not 100% sold on this ''flamethrowers would just set the trench ablaze'' thing.

It does take a lot of wood in a trench for a flamethrower to make it fully impassable, and that doesnt burn forever.

[Cronos341]

Originally posted by Marcus Scholasticus:

Originally posted by Cronos341:

historically speaking, flamethrowers were used in ww1 to mop up trenchs after the main infantry assult. think about it. if you sent in the flamethrower first, and IF he survived to the trench and used said flamethrower, infantry would not be able to take said trench. mainly cause it would be on fire. so idk about flamers using their weapons in the trench. maybe add in pistols that elite infantry, and special units like flamethrowers, and raiders can use in the trench rather than just melee?

Historically speaking you are absolutely right! It would be utterly suicidal to use a flamethrower in a trench.

My concerns are more about gameplay and balancing.
Customers expect a flamethrower to do its job (burning the enemy). Unfortunately, this flame attack is not performed reliably in the game.
At the same time, the unit is very expensive and therefore not cost-effective.

Adding pistols and improving the melee value would certainly benefit the unit performance, but the flame attack would still be carried out too rarely.

i do agree and would even add to your complaint that the range of the flamethrower is waaay to short. i mean flamethrowers from ww1 to now have and insane range reletivly speaking. l mean they had ranges going from 15 meters to 45 meters depending on the model. so they need more range, and they need a more practical use. now that said, im not gonna sit here and speculate on how effective they were in ww1 but something needs doin

[Yuithgf]

Originally posted by Cronos341:

i do agree and would even add to your complaint that the range of the flamethrower is waaay to short. i mean flamethrowers from ww1 to now have and insane range reletivly speaking. l mean they had ranges going from 15 meters to 45 meters depending on the model.

Pretty sure you're including stationary flamethrower models when you say this, portable ones were moreso 10-30 meters (and 30 is generous). One aspect that i don't think is modelled in the game at all is the psychological aspect though.

[Cronos341]

Originally posted by Yuithgf:

yeah ngl i'm not 100% sold on this ''flamethrowers would just set the trench ablaze'' thing.

It does take a lot of wood in a trench for a flamethrower to make it fully impassable, and that doesnt burn forever.

the material of the trench is irrelevent. the fuel the flamethrower used was a long burning liqued that stuck to stuff. when they started using them sure they sent them in first, but that quickly changed due to the casualty rate. average life span of a flammer in ww1 was about 4 mins. and the range of portable flame throwers at the time averaged at about 45 yards (about 41 meters) with enough fuel for about 10 seconds of continus fire (no pun intended). so i guess the most historically accurate implementation would be to up their range, make the AI focus fire on them when they see them, and to have the flamethrower do MASSIVE morale dmg. the bigger stationary flamethrowers, as well as the very very rare tank that had them equipped (there were like 5 or something) had a range of about 100 yeards (90 meters) with enough fuel for about 1 min of fire

[Yuithgf]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/294408287309529088/895264285314412634/les-lances-flammes-1917.mp4
1 min 15

[Yuithgf]

Even if we go with your doubtful range of 41 meters, you realise that means the fuel only burns for a few seconds tops.

Also afaik early war (and for germans, all) flamethrowers had a tendency to lose range the more they fire. So gotta keep that in mind, their maximum range is onlyachieved with the first ''volley'' (or whatever you call that for a flamethrower)

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Marcus Scholasticus:

In my opinion, flamethrowers would be more useful if the special flame attack was used during melee combat inside the trenches.

Indeed. I am surprised this doesn't work like that from get-go. Stormtroopers/Raiders strike a good balance between ranged and melee damage, while flamethrowers would be excellent to clean up the inside of the trenches and bunkers at the cost of not having much of ranged attack.

[Marcus Scholasticus]

Originally posted by Cronos341:

Originally posted by Yuithgf:

i guess the most historically accurate implementation would be to up their range, make the AI focus fire on them when they see them, and to have the flamethrower do MASSIVE morale dmg. the bigger stationary flamethrowers, as well as the very very rare tank that had them equipped (there were like 5 or something) had a range of about 100 yeards (90 meters) with enough fuel for about 1 min of fire

Increasing the range and morale damage would definitely make the unit more effective in game, great idea!

i think we can agree that the flamethrower was a fearsome weapon and i hope the devs wil improve the unit to make it more usefull

[Yuithgf]

Originally posted by Cronos341:

the bigger stationary flamethrowers, as well as the very very rare tank that had them equipped (there were like 5 or something) had a range of about 100 yeards (90 meters) with enough fuel for about 1 min of fire

Oh crap i was too hung up on the earlier stuff i managed to miss that part.

Well it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
And i don't have a specific source regarding the lifespan of flamethrower operators in ww1 but i suspect the 4 minutes thing is BS as well.

[Marcus Scholasticus]

Originally posted by holy-death:

[quote=
Indeed. I am surprised this doesn't work like that from get-go. Stormtroopers/Raiders strike a good balance between ranged and melee damage, while flamethrowers would be excellent to clean up the inside of the trenches and bunkers at the cost of not having much of ranged attack.

Absolutely! Maybe it would also help if the flaming attack was activated automatically jut before the start of melee combat. like the grenade throw of the raider units.

[Cronos341]

Originally posted by Yuithgf:

Originally posted by Cronos341:

i do agree and would even add to your complaint that the range of the flamethrower is waaay to short. i mean flamethrowers from ww1 to now have and insane range reletivly speaking. l mean they had ranges going from 15 meters to 45 meters depending on the model.

Pretty sure you're including stationary flamethrower models when you say this, portable ones were moreso 10-30 meters (and 30 is generous). One aspect that i don't think is modelled in the game at all is the psychological aspect though.

yea i do agree that more weapons should have as much or greater effect on morale as they do actual dmg. flamethrowers, MG's, ect

[Cronos341]

Originally posted by Yuithgf:

Even if we go with your doubtful range of 41 meters, you realise that means the fuel only burns for a few seconds tops.

Also afaik early war (and for germans, all) flamethrowers had a tendency to lose range the more they fire. So gotta keep that in mind, their maximum range is onlyachieved with the first ''volley'' (or whatever you call that for a flamethrower)

oh absolutly. everything you said was correct (other than implying i may have made up the range number) they absolutly only had enough fuel for about 10 seconds of continus fire

[Yuithgf]

Such a shame the way this game handles morale. If it were to do it in a quasi total war way, a flamethrower could scare an enemy unit, they'd run away in panic for a bit then regroup. As is, they'll vanish into the aether