[Spoiler] End of Game Retrospective

[DapperTophat]

So, overall, I feel like the game had a very strong prologue, a solid Chapter 1, a decent Chapter 2, and an ending (its true one) caused me some frustration. I would like to give my own retrospective and see if anyone has come to a similar experience with the game.

Prologue: Overall, I think that the fact that this prologue was so strong might also be the contributing factor for why the ending was so unsatisfying for me. I suppose if I had to center my main frustrations at something in this, it would be the fact of Shogo's Inconsistency Around Yoko.

Now, for me to address this point thoroughly, I would like to call attention to The Cleansing. In this point of the game, Shogo basically just shrugs Yoko's death off and goes away from the park without so much as batting an eyelash. I mean, look, I get why this was chosen from a writing perspective in order to end the game somewhere, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

However, outside of this one scene, we can clearly see that Shogo has a strong desire to save Yoko from her death. Now, I understand that Yoko is the mastermind, but this makes Shogo's character completely inconsistent in my eyes. For instance, this thought cropped up in my mind. Why did Shogo specifically desire to use the Rite of Resurrection on Yoko in the first place if he wasn't all that attached to her to begin with?

The Cleansing has nothing to do with this whatsoever in my mind. Shogo decided to save Yoko, but also decided it would be acceptable to potentially kill around 5 people in exchange for her life. The fact that Shogo can brush this all aside (even if our consciousness overrides his own) basically indicates that Shogo was a straight-up scumbag and not at all a savior like the plot seems to indicate.

This also brings me to a point about Yoko being the big baddie. First of all, why in the hell would Yoko not get killed by Hajime, another descendant of Seinen (or us) before the Prologue even began with Shogo? Did I miss something, or wasn't Hajime perfectly capable of using self-defense through Beckoning of the Light like Shogo a week prior to the events when Yoko first cursed him?

Chapter 1, overall, had good character development for its three protagonists. However, once Chapter 2 rolled around, I was disappointed how Yakko wanted to be arrested for being possessed, and how Tetsuo was basically okay with that while simultaneously not okay with putting his own daughter behind bars. And what I mean by this last point is that, while Tetsuo says his daughter needs to face punishment for her crimes, he's also perfectly fine with allowing her the possibility of killing him for the sake of his honor, which in turn means he gets to escape from having to see her face punishment for her crimes (especially so the crime of her murdering him). I personally felt that Tetsuo deserved better than this type of ending for his character. I was also disappointed how Harue was not setup as a proper villain archetype like she was in the Prologue and basically told that she's unable to curse by Richter Kai (yet Richter Kai also did nothing to save Harue when she was about to die to Shogo in the Prologue, so I don't exactly get that dude's odd dancing around ethics around Harue wanting to kill people if he's just going to sit on the sidelines when actual people are about to die).

As for Mayu Chozawa, ooh boy...this is a big one for me to dissect. Firstly, why did Tetsuo or Richter Kai not suspect anything suspicious about Mayu at all or whether or not she had a hand in Hajime's death? Why did everyone automatically just believe this person when they appeared without so much as batting an eyelash? Also, where the hell was she when Yoko came running around? Let's all remember that Tetsuo is dead before Yoko kills Erio and Mio, yet somehow his curse stones in his possession just disappear to the authorities who aren't curse bearers through Mio and Erio's gathering of them??? I call BS on this (mainly because Shogo clearly takes Yoko's curse stone off her body after she dies, as he's already a curse bearer from the start. Therefore, Mayu could have shown up at Tetsuo and Ayame's rendezvous point to pick up her curse stone if Erio bothered to inform her about them. After all, Tetsuo was dead, Ayame was going to prison, and Yakko wanted to go to prison, too, yet somehow Mio and Erio were able to seal up all the curse stones without any assistance from Mayu? And also, it should have been clear to them that Ayame wasn't the mastermind, and that, therefore, the true mastermind Yoko should still be alive. So...the fact that Erio and Mio did not have Mayu available to help flush out the mastermind at the end of the game boggles my mind, and I didn't exactly think that a veteran detective and an experienced high-school psychic putting themselves into that sort of scenario without Mayu's help made that much logistical sense.

But all of these are just my own two cents. I appreciated the artwork and the music that went into this game, as well as a majority of the initial writing and the people that wrote the codex entries. But as far as how much those codex entries tied into what I was seeing in the game, I found myself wanting more than what was written out for me for those characters (Yoko especially. I feel like she should have at least gave some sort of long speech to Erio and Mio about her actions, and also allow the other 8 to have more involvement in taking her down without giving all the glory to Shogo (who, in my honest opinion, shouldn't have really been involved in plot in the first place)).

[moopish]

I agree with your thoughts on Yoko!

My favorite element of this game was trying to figure out the curse powers and how each one worked, either from the dialogue of the curse bearers or from the lore clues in the Files.

So when it is revealed (almost in passing) that it was Yoko who killed Hajime with a different, stronger curse, and this is never shown -- it does feel kind of lame, random, and takes away from the world building. (How can Yoko be powerful and shrewd enough to kill Hajime with a heart attack using a picture, yet not have any precautions in place against curse echoes like The Beckoning Light? Ashino would be ashamed.)

As an aside, I liked that there were actually no tricks or hidden meanings to Ayame's motivation to resurrect Hokusai. Girl found her favorite artist from the past and simply wanted to bring them back to life -- that's kinda dope, other than the whole uh genocide thing.

[DapperTophat]

Originally posted by moopish:

I agree with your thoughts on Yoko!

My favorite element of this game was trying to figure out the curse powers and how each one worked, either from the dialogue of the curse bearers or from the lore clues in the Files.

So when it is revealed (almost in passing) that it was Yoko who killed Hajime with a different, stronger curse, and this is never shown -- it does feel kind of lame, random, and takes away from the world building. (How can Yoko be powerful and shrewd enough to kill Hajime with a heart attack using a picture, yet not have any precautions in place against curse echoes like The Beckoning Light? Ashino would be ashamed.)

As an aside, I liked that there were actually no tricks or hidden meanings to Ayame's motivation to resurrect Hokusai. Girl found her favorite artist from the past and simply wanted to bring them back to life -- that's kinda dope, other than the whole uh genocide thing.

Yeah, to me, it's not as though Yoko made for the worst ever villain I've seen in a work of fiction, but on this point that you've brought up, I think it bears some further scrutiny especially if we think about the fact that if Shogo had the Beckoning Light in him the whole time, then Hajime likely did, too.

But then that also implies that since Yoko is a descendant of Ashino...that she inherits the curse of the Foot-Washing Mansion. So...technically...she had 2 curses she could have used on Shogo.

Maybe this would have worked better for Yoko: when they're talking about drinks, let's say Yoko takes Shogo to a bar and has some drinks with him to get his guard down. After getting him sufficiently drunk, his unconscious mind (not connected with Seimen, or us) will be more susceptible to her influence.

Then, she gets up to head to the restroom, and then tells Shogo that she's going to "Wash" up, triggering the Foot-Washing Mansion on him (which you are unable to escape from once you hear the voice as indicated by Namigaki).

I'm pretty sure in this situation, if Shogo were drunk, he'd have been unable to avoid this curse, and would have died as a result. Also, his guard would likely be down, as opposed to the game's scenario in the park where Yoko's freakout causes Shogo's mind to be on high-alert (which, now that I think about it, sounds really silly for Yoko to have done in the first place).

Or Yoko doesn't target Shogo initially (since she already took out Hajime, she should have had enough spiritual influence anyway). So, instead of taking out Shogo early on, she keeps him alive and reveals that she found a curse stone (and maybe she even tells Shogo about the Whispering Canal's ability to get him to trust her, hiding her Foot-Washing Mansion inherited ability from him).

Yoko finds an opportunity to kill Namigaki in secret to remove the Foot-Washing Mansion getting used against her from the equation. She also could search for Mayu and take her out to get Beckoning Light as a precautionary measure against Shogo (because a Beckoning Light against a Beckoning Light serves as a redirect to prevent yourself from dying, if I understand how this works properly, and I think the curse stone would have more power over the ancestral ability of Shogo). As for how Yoko could kill Mayu, all she needed to do was free her from captivity and tell her that she should hurry away from the scene (and then promptly use the Whispering Canal on her and throw her body into the river to hide all traces of her deed). Mayu likely wouldn't expect her "savior" to kill them in such a manner, so that would allow for a more clever claiming of the Beckoning of Light (and potentially indicates such a strategy could also be used to kill Shogo, too, like in the earlier scenario I posed).

Granted, these scenarios I've posed potentially have some holes in them, but I like to see them as making Yoko's character more calculated and fitting of being called the mastermind (especially if she's seen as more trustworthy by Shogo, and he doesn't wind up getting killed early on in the plot either).

[Vamphuntr]

I like to think that when the mind, body and soul echo of Seinen were all at the same place at the same time it transferred all what the player saw in the game to Shogo. So after the flash he knows everything about who Yoko was and what she wanted to do to him and the city and saw everything that happened across all timelines. So my guess is that he saw everything and changed his mind about her. He clearly states in the scene that he now understand everything and later on talk about how he now has supernatural sensitivity.

Hajime couldn't have used the beckoning light. The game explains the seven mysteries curses only work because of the realm of shadows upon the city and the spreading of rumors for week about their effect by Yoko's scheming through the professor. Which is why she seemed to have used a complicated curses with calculations and drawings on Hajime. The whispering canal only shows up the night Yoko calls Shogo to the park. Shogo didn't have the curse stone for the beckoning light either, the echo appear in the park too because the body and mind of Seinen were there at the same time. It's used automatically or rather instinctively but leave after Shodo dies and go to the bridge where it was supposed to be found in the first place.

I agree that the prologue was the best part of the game. Gameplay wise the rest of the game never delivers the same experience. I think there is only one place you can actually use the curses after in the game and that is in Harue's endings. The lowering the volume to 0 to evade the curse was a smart "think out of the box" thing but they never do anything similar (outside of saving to remember Michiyo). There is also only 1 part of the game with actual items and puzzle and that is with Mayu. The story chart stuff wasn't used very well either it's mostly all straight lines with bad endings on the sides.

Art and music were really great and it's refreshing that you can beat it under 10 hours. Bonus points for it to be budget priced in the first place too. I would gladly take more of this kind of experience.

[Rain-D]

Richter doesn't save Harue because he doesn't know Shogo's condition for triggering the curse and doesn't want to risk his own life. Just like on near the climax when Ayame came to Harue's home, Ayame mentioned that Richter technically could just pin down Ayame, but he wouldn't do it because he doesn't know the trigger condition for Ayame's curse. He only shows up if Harue kills Shogo possibly to have an argument with her for actually using her curse instead of just threatening Shogo as per their discussion.

[DapperTophat]

Originally posted by Vamphuntr:

I like to think that when the mind, body and soul echo of Seinen were all at the same place at the same time it transferred all what the player saw in the game to Shogo. So after the flash he knows everything about who Yoko was and what she wanted to do to him and the city and saw everything that happened across all timelines. So my guess is that he saw everything and changed his mind about her. He clearly states in the scene that he now understand everything and later on talk about how he now has supernatural sensitivity.

Hajime couldn't have used the beckoning light. The game explains the seven mysteries curses only work because of the realm of shadows upon the city and the spreading of rumors for week about their effect by Yoko's scheming through the professor. Which is why she seemed to have used a complicated curses with calculations and drawings on Hajime. The whispering canal only shows up the night Yoko calls Shogo to the park. Shogo didn't have the curse stone for the beckoning light either, the echo appear in the park too because the body and mind of Seinen were there at the same time. It's used automatically or rather instinctively but leave after Shodo dies and go to the bridge where it was supposed to be found in the first place.

I agree that the prologue was the best part of the game. Gameplay wise the rest of the game never delivers the same experience. I think there is only one place you can actually use the curses after in the game and that is in Harue's endings. The lowering the volume to 0 to evade the curse was a smart "think out of the box" thing but they never do anything similar (outside of saving to remember Michiyo). There is also only 1 part of the game with actual items and puzzle and that is with Mayu. The story chart stuff wasn't used very well either it's mostly all straight lines with bad endings on the sides.

Art and music were really great and it's refreshing that you can beat it under 10 hours. Bonus points for it to be budget priced in the first place too. I would gladly take more of this kind of experience.

I agree with the gameplay experience for the budget that we got for it. Overall, I thought it was very good for the most part, but would have appreciated a more polished experience in certain places.

And with Yoko and the historian spreading the curse rumors, I suppose that makes sense for activating the conditions of the curse. I didn't exactly remember that part when I was making the post, but that makes more sense now in retrospect that the curse might have needed more time to properly "activate" before going off.

But regarding how Yoko killed Hajime, couldn't she have technically set off a similar complicated curse on Shogo days earlier if she knew about him prior to her acquiring the Whispering Canal? That way, she doesn't have to mess with any of Seinen's descendants when the curse goes off. So...that possibility alone does seem like a big oversight Yoko would have to make on her part as the mastermind.

Also, I'm not arguing that Shogo had the Beckoning Light curse stone, but he still technically had to be a curse bearer before he got the Whispering Canal in the first place to even pick up Yoko's Whispering Canal after her death (as evidenced by what Mio said to Yakko about her possession and her trying to take her curse stone, but failing to do so because she wasn't actually a curse bearer). So, in other words, Shogo had to have ancestral Beckoning Light in the Prologue no matter what (with or without Seinen's involvement, as I think Shogo will still unconsciously activate the curse even if you don't do it in the Prologue the first time), and he used that curse on Yoko to kill her. Therefore, since he, a descendant of Seinen, had the latent ability of the Beckoning Light in one particular instance, I personally found it odd why he couldn't have had this ability throughout the remainder of the night.

Also, if Beckoning Light (or Seinen) goes off to the factory to its rightful place, it also seems odd to me that Shogo can even pick up the Whispering Canal (or hold onto it at all throughout the rest of the night) if the curse of the Beckoning Light were to leave his body (as that would indicate that Shogo has no longer any claim on the curse stone as he's not technically a curse bearer). That would then imply to me that the Whispering Canal stone should disappear and make it back to Yoko's person (as Shogo could not be considered a curse bearer as a result). This is part of what made me originally think that Hajime would technically also be capable of being a curse bearer even before the realm of shadows due to his ancestral ability (and the possibility that Seinen does not necessarily need to be directly involved in order for one of his descendants to activate his curse).

Imo, given how The Cleansing works, and that the Beckoning Light Shogo sees is essentially ourselves, and him touching it is essentially his consciousness merging with ours, it seems like we as Seinen could, hypothetically speaking, transport ourselves back to a week prior to the game right before Hajime is about to meet with Yoko before his death. Then, Hajime could interact with ourselves similar to how Shogo does in The Cleansing, come to understand everything, and then just leave Yoko hanging. Then the rumors don't even have to spread as Hajime can simply stop the historian from spreading them if I understand how this all works correctly.

Or does Seinen's consciousness only crop up right when Shogo meets Yoko at the park in the prologue because of the realm of shadows coming to its peak at this time? And if that is the case, why couldn't other consciousnesses like Ashino's emerge to cause problems with Seinen and provide someone like Yoko with this similar understanding of all timelines? What exactly gives Seinen a distinct advantage over all the other curses' consciousnesses?

Also, I feel like all these things would inherently imply that Yoko, as a descendant of Ashino, could have also had a latent ancestral ability of the Foot-Washing Mansion at the same time as Shogo as well. So, there was technically no need for her to even pick up the Whispering Canal curse stone to kill Shogo in the first place, as she could have made use of her ancestral latent ability as well to attempt to kill Shogo.

[DapperTophat]

Originally posted by Bukan_Randy:

Richter doesn't save Harue because he doesn't know Shogo's condition for triggering the curse and doesn't want to risk his own life. Just like on near the climax when Ayame came to Harue's home, Ayame mentioned that Richter technically could just pin down Ayame, but he wouldn't do it because he doesn't know the trigger condition for Ayame's curse. He only shows up if Harue kills Shogo possibly to have an argument with her for actually using her curse instead of just threatening Shogo as per their discussion.

I mean, I get that logically speaking, Richter had no reason to know what would happen to himself if he had intervened (but I think he could have reasonably concluded he would have died if he had tried to insert himself into the conflict in most cases). But...after seeing the panic come across either Shogo or Harue, he did still choose inaction over simply standing in to help at the risk of his own life. At a certain point, I feel like there is some ethical accountability on Richter there for failing to help either party when he knew someone would probably die either way (especially if he's going to try taking a stand against Harue wanting to gather up soul dregs from murdered people for the sake of reviving her own murdered son). To me, it seemed like Richter was trying to have his ethical cake and eat it too.

Now, granted, I'm not saying that Richter doing something would have necessarily helped either, but it's the inaction on his part that had me concerned about his character's morality.

I mean, imagine, for instance, in Chapter 2's Conclusion, when Tetsuo confronts Ayame, if Tetsuo had simply not responded to Ayame's question about whether or not he was actually her daughter and just walked away (technically not violating Ayame's condition and saving his own life in the process 100%). Now, sure, technically, Tetsuo could have done that and lived to tell the tale. However, he decided to take a stand for something, and didn't sit on the sidelines in fear of what would happen to him like Richter seemed to have done in the Prologue regarding Harue and Shogo's confrontation or in Harue's ending scene regarding Harue and Ayame's confrontation.

I will admit, however, that I did not like the Conclusion, but I wouldn't say that was one of the lowest points of the entire experience of the game, imo.

My biggest disappointment happened at The Cleansing because even though I wanted Shogo to play a part in the story, that seemed like a bit of a cheap way to end the plot whilst doing that to me as Yoko essentially got reduced to a throwaway mastermind who made plenty of silly blunders, which ironically makes her not that much of a mastermind in the end. If anything, I felt like Harue would have made for a much better mastermind than Yoko in almost all cases.

[DrQuint]

I think that Shogo just saw the mastermind as a cartoonishly evil villain at that point, and thought that death was warranted and justified, then moved on. That would keep his sense of justice consistent.

[Updoggo]

this is my first time using the community tab on steam, but I just completed the game and wanted to clear some things up that I've read. I might have to go back into the game to reread some things, but here are the comments that caught my eye.

I also don't know how to do Spoilers. So with that in mind,


SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!!


I don't think Yoko had any way of knowing that Shogo was a descendant of Seinen, even with research. I believe he was one of the further descendants of Seinen, and I think there was some dialogue that stated something about how even when killed he didn't have very many soul dregs, but my recollection on that is a little hazy... I believe she was more focused on looking into Ashino's past rather than Seinen's as well but this is something I'd have to look in the Files more to really flesh out an explanation.

Another comment I noticed was, why didn't Ashino's consciousness crop up like Seinen's did? This was answered in "The Honjo Incident," where after their fight, while writing the Record of Fates Yin Document or whatever, he wrote a spell in order to allow his consciousness to crop up as the Rite of Resurrection was brought back. Ashido died soon after the fight as well, having her foot being cursed by Seinen, and becoming the Foot-Washing Mansion, and dying thereafter. Even if she knew how to resurrect herself when the spell happens, she was so focused of trying to cleanse herself from her nasty, cursed foot, she died trying to keep her beauty over everything.

I believe there is a bit of a misconception when it comes to how someone is able to become a curse-bearer as well. It's a little confusing, and I myself am not entirely sure of all the intricacies that come from it, but from what I can tell, it has to be someone who very strongly wants to use the Rite. In the voices that flow into the head of the characters, it usually says "Oh you who so strongly craves the Rite" (or something like that), and explains why each character got their Curse Stone.

Yoko for Ashino,
Shogo for Yoko,
Yatsuda for Michiyo,
Yakko also for Michiyo,
Harue for Shuichi,
Tetsuo's Daughter (forgot the name sorry)is for Hokusai,
Nejima for his dead wife,
Hideki for Hihaku Soaps (for their chairwoman),
Tetsuo for Hajime? Or to stop the curse altogether, I don't actually remember.
Mayu for Hajime, but I think those emotions were more spur of the moment, which explains why she was calmer later.

Also, not to mention, it would have been impossible for Shogo to be a curse-bearer beforehand since the Feast of the Shadows didn't start yet. As for how he was able to kill Yoko then...
He didn't, it was Seinen. Seinen unconsciously killed Yoko with his curse echo, which is back up when The Storyteller asks how many people Shogo has killed, it doesn't count Yoko, because Yoko didn't get killed by Shogo. It was Seinen, unconsciously. BUT you might be wondering, "Why did Shogo say he killed Yoko after the cleansing?" well ..
For the same reason as to why Yakko said that she killed Mr. Jonouchi and Iwai, it was moreso Michiyo's consciousness (in this case, Seinen) that killed Yoko. Although Seinen didn't get exorcised out of Shogo like Michiyo did out of Yakko. I believe Shogo is living w/ Seinen's thoughts at the end which is also why I think Shogo straight up says that he was the one who killed Yoko, because I think that's more of the Seinen side speaking for him. While in Yakko's case, she just wanted to get revenge on those who wronged Michiyo too, which is why she blamed herself.

Final thing, was that Shogo was shown to be a savior in some way. I don't think he was, it was stated clearly without Seinen's will, that he would have just straight up killed every other curse-bearer if Seinen didn't. As said before, I believe that was more so of the Seinen side speaking, now that they basically have the same consciousness now.

As for everything else, I don't actually know and am a bit lazy to find out . Those were just some things that I figured I could try to clear up from memory since they stood out to me. I do hope for a second game though, especially to make things a little less confusing when it comes to stuff like this.

[galacticcorgi]

Also, Kai Richter. Say it like that out loud. He's clearly something more than he seems, which is why he'll help with info but won't, or possibly even CAN'T, actually intervene. In retrospect, he outright tells you to not give anyone your name or information--and prattles on how easy it is to find someone's info online just with a name. But he'll hand out his. Likely, Kai Richter isn't his real name.

Think about that in context of a lot of things, but mainly the Reed. Also, he sure was waiting around for the Beckoning Light and asks you to wait with him.

He's the one mystery I can't solve (the two mystery curses, IMO, are Ashino and Seiman themselves.)

[DapperTophat]

Originally posted by DrQuint:

I think that Shogo just saw the mastermind as a cartoonishly evil villain at that point, and thought that death was warranted and justified, then moved on. That would keep his sense of justice consistent.

Well, since Shogo merges consciousness with Seinen, I would argue that his consciousness isn't even the same as what it used to be in the first place. The guy was willing to kill 5 strangers all to revive a girl he barely knew for more than a month (most likely because he thought she was good looking). That's where my notion of Shogo's inconsistency comes from from my perspective.

@Updoggo

That explanation of yours makes sense for Yoko and Ashino, so I'm fine with consenting to that without any problems (although I do make an attempt at a counterargument that could still work if Seinen is seen as an unreliable narrator of the historical events that happened). But I still believe Yoko could have used Whispering Canal on Shogo after getting him sufficiently drunk and weakening his connection to Seinen's ancestral power he inherited.

And on the point about Yoko not finding out any information on Shogo and his ties to Seinen, how was Yoko able to do this for Hajime? And also, Yoko had to know about Michiyo too because she had connections to Iwai. And odds are she might have connections to the guy from Hihaku Soaps (otherwise why in the hell would he randomly be in the park anyway unless Yoko called him out there explicitly, or for him to get more information out of Yoko?). To me, this implies that those two (Yoko and the Hihaku Soaps guy) had to have some form of conversation about the curses as well as Iwai and Nejima and the historian did with Yoko.

Also, I doubt Yoko would likely have been caught unawares about Seinen's revival in the Rite of Resurrection, either. Especially moreso when one considers all the research she had to have done to setup this whole thing in the first place. She had her fingers in so many pies according to the plot that it's incredibly odd that she let herself fall prey to a silly blunder.

Also, since she's a descendant of Ashino, why couldn't she have killed Shogo BEFORE she got the Whispering Canal like she had done with Hajime? Why did Shogo have to be in the park with her (when, according to the codex, I believe) Yoko already knew that Shogo was a threat to her plot early enough along where she could have killed him just like she did with Hajime. To me, that implies that she did have a sense about Shogo's ancestry.

And also, about Seinen killing Yoko with Shogo unawares...I'm pretty sure that's not what actually happened. I think Shogo had to be the unconscious killer, and Seinen (or ourselves) either assisted Shogo with that in the beginning, or were unable to influence Shogo's self-defense instinct.

Also, to me, it seems kinda silly for Shogo to desire the rite so much for a girl he barely knew before all this, and that's the excuse for him to be a curse-bearer in the Prologue. I personally find it more suitable that descendants of Seinen were already all capable of being curse-bearers.

Otherwise, how else could one explain the odd possession with Michiyo in Yakko's body before the events even began? MIchiyo is clearly another descendant of Seinen, and somehow during the rite she was able to take control of Yakko through their shared hatred over Mr. Jonouchi and Iwai.

Also, I'm pretty certain Yakko would have to have been practically overflowing with spiritual energy way beyond that of Mio's (and I'm sure Mio's seen plenty of cases like Tetsuo where she might strongly desire the rite for the same reasons as him, so I feel that Michiyo's presence in Yakko's body was the main factor that tipped the Fool's Procession over to Yakko over Mio in the end). Michiyo also messed with Jonuichi and Namigaki a ton, so she had to have influence over Yakko even before the rite. So, if Michiyo can have that much power outside of her own original body, then I feel like Shogo should have had more than enough power to constitute as an ancestral original curse bearer along with someone like Hajime even before Shogo got the curse stone from Yoko.

Also, regarding Shogo's kills and the Storyteller, if you answer anything but "1", he says that you are wrong, as we'll find out. So, in other words, this is the game directly telling us that Shogo unconsciously killed only Yoko through the Cleansing, which we find out at the end of the game. Whether or not Shogo's consciousness merges with Seinen is inconsequential in the Storyteller's eyes as Shogo in the true ending only kills one person, Yoko.

Therefore, this brings me full-circle back to my original thoughts about Shogo as a curse bearer. Shogo had to be the killer of Yoko in some way even at the very beginning, unconscious or not. Also, I can say for a fact that in the Prologue, I, as Seinen, chose to spare Yakko. However, it was Shogo who decided to kill her despite me not wanting Shogo to do that. In other words, Shogo is proven to be capable of taking away from what Seinen, or ourselves, actually wants to have happen. However, this behavior of Shogo's gets overridden completely by the Cleansing, hence my dislike of the ending.

After all, who says Seinen is even "correct" about the conditions for the rite of resurrection, anyway? History is written by the victors, after all, and Ashino lost to Seinen. So maybe that was part of where Yoko's frustration at her fallen heritage came from. Maybe like Hajime, Yoko received some stories from Ashino that we have no knowledge about.

After all, regarding the historical accounts of how Ashino died (which, correct me if I'm wrong here), those accounts are all based on the perspective of Seinen. So, in my opinion, it could still be valid for Ashino to have passed down an ancestral rite to her descendants like Yoko instead of focusing on the curse on her foot like Seinen portrays.

The only perspective we are allowed to get completely is what Seinen decided to pass down, and what Erio and Mio were able to read (an ending that the Storyteller reiterates to us that never actually happened, I think). So who can even tell if the events of that section of the story are even reliable? Maybe that could also actually mean that Yoko isn't actually the mastermind, but rather Seinen is?

Maybe Seinen's family had dark secrets about the rite that were passed down to Hajime and Michiyo. Maybe Shogo knew all along about the curses and what Yoko was up to in trying to reclaim her family's honor. But who among all of us really knows in the end, anyway? After all, we're all Seinen, so our perspective of the plot was skewed from the very beginning.

[Updoggo]

@DapperTophat

You make a good point about how Yoko would know about Hajime's ties. I'm sure doing some digging could come to a conclusion, but I like your theory of her knowing Takumi Yumioka (the Hihaku Soaps guy), given that he even mentions that she came over to his work. Shogo might have doubted that at first, but given what we know about Yoko postgame, I think it's likely that they could've been in cahoots or something. I think Hajime was more of a "direct descendant" than Shogo, and was probably how they found out about Hajime but not Shogo... I personally think that Shogo all of a sudden being a descendant of Seinen w/o much build up or allusion to that fact is a little meh and wish they built on that more, but maybe I'm just missing something.

However, there's still no way for Yoko to know that Seinen's consciousness would have been active during the course of the game. The only way for her to have known that, was if she had gotten Hajime & Michiyo's Talismans which reveal the Yin Scroll that talks about it. The most Yoko could have known was the EXISTENCE of a scroll, likely passed down beyond generation... Which is probably why she killed Hajime in the first place. But since Hajime gifted it to Hitomi, she was unable to get it.

I still believe Seinen was the one who killed Yoko though. It was stated by The Storyteller that unconsciously, he was the one to do it, by use of his Curse Echo (The Beckoning Light). And that explains why it was there after Yoko's death when talking to Takumi. The reason why nothing came of it before, was that Seinen was relearning the story of himself throughout the game, and is why "Shogo" suddenly becomes aware to touch The Beckoning Light, because of Seinen's will guiding him to do so.

Now this is gonna be a little silly, but I think Shogo, being unremarkable as he is, has essentially nothing else to care for except for this girl he's been takling to for about a month. It even says in his description that "He's currently looking for a girlfriend." So to see that person you've been talking to for a month or so, and likely grown attached to them to die right in front of you, (and then influenced by the Curse Stone of course,) drives him to kill. Him wanting the Rite of Ressurection is about as silly as him killing random people for her to come back too. I think he's just a simple-minded goofy guy. (This might be moreso of an opinion though.)

This part is a little tricky. I believe that Michiyo possessing Yakko didn't necessarily come from a hatred of Mr. Jonouchi and Iwai, but moreso that they were very close to one another in the real world, I believe it was stated by Mio at some time explaining how possessing works, that the closer you are to someone the more influence they might have over your decisions and body. It's also stated that Yakko, when looking to place flowers near where Michiyo died, is where she got possessed by Michiyo (which I think was before the games events..? i cant remember). When it came to killing Jonouchi and Iwai, the reason why Michiyo had so much power/control over Yakko was because of how much they both hated them. I do agree with you though that the descendants of Seinen definitely have spirit sense. I don't think necessarily curse-bearing potential, but I think they are more likely to have Spirit sense, just like how Shogo was able to make that initial PUSH. That's how I interpreted it anyway, a push to see into the spirit world or something.

I don't think Michiyo's relation to Seinen tipped the Fool's Procession into Yakko's hands. It's important to remember the location of where everybody was at when they got their Curse Stone. I believe the MAIN reason as to why Yakko got the Fool's Procession was because of their location, as well as her desire for the Rite of Ressurection. The reason why Mio didn't get it was because she was simply helping out a friend, and Yakko was her only friend since she often moves around schools and doesn't attract many people to her. This goes hand in hand with my reasoning as to why Shogo couldn't have possibly unconsciously had The Beckoning Light either, given that The Beckoning Light curse stone can only manifest at Ho'onji Bridge. The reason why it was able to activate on Yoko despite where the curse stone actually manifested, was because of Seinen's unconscious use of his curse echo. Shogo didn't have the curse stone, so he could not have utilized it in any way.

Shogo didn't kill Yoko. Storyteller doesn't count Yoko's death as Shogo's, if you don't press "Use Curse" on anybody, he'll tell you Shogo killed 5 people, that being:
Takumi
Hideki
Yakko
Yatsuda
Harue.

If the story wanted to imply that Shogo killed Yoko, it would've asked how many people Seinen (the player) has killed, and then it would have counted Yoko. It was focusing that Shogo was doing this out of his own will, Yoko was not included.

I also don't believe Seinen's will upon Shogo is as strong as you may think. It was mentioned by The Storyteller that through whisperings, we simply guided the characters to the right way. (Although, indirectly to other characters through choice of words, but through Shogo and Mayu we can directly speak to them due to Shogo being a descendant and Mayu being the curse-bearer of Seinen's curse echo.) I don't think we can necessarily "stop" the characters from doing something that we don't want them to, just influence their decisions because its ultimately up to the characters to choose whether or not they want to do something. Like in Shogo's case, he just kills on a whim because that's what HE wants to do. Or in Tsutsumi's case, if you try to use his curse, he doesn't activate it no matter what. The characters can resist the urge to kill, but Shogo was just like nah screw it I need soul dregs.

The reason why it's different at the ending, is because finally the 3 things needed for the Yin scroll was together to activate, and not only was his urge to kill was gone (due to the curse stones not existing, therefore nothing commanding him to kill), as well as Seinen merging with Shogo's consciousness at the end, and since they're merged, Shogo would know full well of Yoko's plans and wouldn't even desire the Rite at that point anyway.

We have no clue if you can actually resurrect through the Rite of Ressurection. This was kinda put up for interpretation through the whole game, like how Iwai tried to do a Rite of Youth or something and it didn't end up working, or with Nejima.. although in Nejima's case it's a little more confusing, given that he might have summoned Shino through black magic, and that she could have been rebirthed as Ayame but. Idk. That part is intentionally up to the player.

I think it's for sure that Ashino died not only from Seinen's perspective, but also with what is written from The Foot-Washing Mansion. Once you learn about it's curse-echo, it details what happened with Ashino after her foot being cursed. Which would have also had the accounts of those she tried to make her wash her foot, as well as like. All of Honjo back then, it was stated that they didn't forget or anything, just kept quiet. So the backstory of all of the Curses would have to be accurate. Especially so since everything in the Files tab is supposed to be factual so..

The most that Ashino could have handed down was the Record of Fates, which detailed how to do the Rite of Ressurection (thats how it was passed down to Yoko to give to Hideki), and since Seinen couldn't seal that away, he wrote the Yin scroll as an addendum.

I'd have to replay the part where Erio and Mio die from Yoko to know if The Storyteller said anything like that, but from my recollection it was that we just had the power to stop it from happening. I believe that was a real timeline for the hypothetical case of if Yoko was able to get away with her plan, and that timeline was needed to be seen by Seinen in order to understand how to stop it.

This game is pretty tricky to talk about .. LOL

[galacticcorgi]

Originally posted by Updoggo:

@DapperTophat

You make a good point about how Yoko would know about Hajime's ties. I'm sure doing some digging could come to a conclusion, but I like your theory of her knowing Takumi Yumioka (the Hihaku Soaps guy), given that he even mentions that she came over to his work. Shogo might have doubted that at first, but given what we know about Yoko postgame, I think it's likely that they could've been in cahoots or something. I think Hajime was more of a "direct descendant" than Shogo, and was probably how they found out about Hajime but not Shogo... I personally think that Shogo all of a sudden being a descendant of Seinen w/o much build up or allusion to that fact is a little meh and wish they built on that more, but maybe I'm just missing something.

However, there's still no way for Yoko to know that Seinen's consciousness would have been active during the course of the game. The only way for her to have known that, was if she had gotten Hajime & Michiyo's Talismans which reveal the Yin Scroll that talks about it. The most Yoko could have known was the EXISTENCE of a scroll, likely passed down beyond generation... Which is probably why she killed Hajime in the first place. But since Hajime gifted it to Hitomi, she was unable to get it.

I still believe Seinen was the one who killed Yoko though. It was stated by The Storyteller that unconsciously, he was the one to do it, by use of his Curse Echo (The Beckoning Light). And that explains why it was there after Yoko's death when talking to Takumi. The reason why nothing came of it before, was that Seinen was relearning the story of himself throughout the game, and is why "Shogo" suddenly becomes aware to touch The Beckoning Light, because of Seinen's will guiding him to do so.

Now this is gonna be a little silly, but I think Shogo, being unremarkable as he is, has essentially nothing else to care for except for this girl he's been takling to for about a month. It even says in his description that "He's currently looking for a girlfriend." So to see that person you've been talking to for a month or so, and likely grown attached to them to die right in front of you, (and then influenced by the Curse Stone of course,) drives him to kill. Him wanting the Rite of Ressurection is about as silly as him killing random people for her to come back too. I think he's just a simple-minded goofy guy. (This might be moreso of an opinion though.)

This part is a little tricky. I believe that Michiyo possessing Yakko didn't necessarily come from a hatred of Mr. Jonouchi and Iwai, but moreso that they were very close to one another in the real world, I believe it was stated by Mio at some time explaining how possessing works, that the closer you are to someone the more influence they might have over your decisions and body. It's also stated that Yakko, when looking to place flowers near where Michiyo died, is where she got possessed by Michiyo (which I think was before the games events..? i cant remember). When it came to killing Jonouchi and Iwai, the reason why Michiyo had so much power/control over Yakko was because of how much they both hated them. I do agree with you though that the descendants of Seinen definitely have spirit sense. I don't think necessarily curse-bearing potential, but I think they are more likely to have Spirit sense, just like how Shogo was able to make that initial PUSH. That's how I interpreted it anyway, a push to see into the spirit world or something.

I don't think Michiyo's relation to Seinen tipped the Fool's Procession into Yakko's hands. It's important to remember the location of where everybody was at when they got their Curse Stone. I believe the MAIN reason as to why Yakko got the Fool's Procession was because of their location, as well as her desire for the Rite of Ressurection. The reason why Mio didn't get it was because she was simply helping out a friend, and Yakko was her only friend since she often moves around schools and doesn't attract many people to her. This goes hand in hand with my reasoning as to why Shogo couldn't have possibly unconsciously had The Beckoning Light either, given that The Beckoning Light curse stone can only manifest at Ho'onji Bridge. The reason why it was able to activate on Yoko despite where the curse stone actually manifested, was because of Seinen's unconscious use of his curse echo. Shogo didn't have the curse stone, so he could not have utilized it in any way.

Shogo didn't kill Yoko. Storyteller doesn't count Yoko's death as Shogo's, if you don't press "Use Curse" on anybody, he'll tell you Shogo killed 5 people, that being:
Takumi
Hideki
Yakko
Yatsuda
Harue.

If the story wanted to imply that Shogo killed Yoko, it would've asked how many people Seinen (the player) has killed, and then it would have counted Yoko. It was focusing that Shogo was doing this out of his own will, Yoko was not included.

I also don't believe Seinen's will upon Shogo is as strong as you may think. It was mentioned by The Storyteller that through whisperings, we simply guided the characters to the right way. (Although, indirectly to other characters through choice of words, but through Shogo and Mayu we can directly speak to them due to Shogo being a descendant and Mayu being the curse-bearer of Seinen's curse echo.) I don't think we can necessarily "stop" the characters from doing something that we don't want them to, just influence their decisions because its ultimately up to the characters to choose whether or not they want to do something. Like in Shogo's case, he just kills on a whim because that's what HE wants to do. Or in Tsutsumi's case, if you try to use his curse, he doesn't activate it no matter what. The characters can resist the urge to kill, but Shogo was just like nah screw it I need soul dregs.

The reason why it's different at the ending, is because finally the 3 things needed for the Yin scroll was together to activate, and not only was his urge to kill was gone (due to the curse stones not existing, therefore nothing commanding him to kill), as well as Seinen merging with Shogo's consciousness at the end, and since they're merged, Shogo would know full well of Yoko's plans and wouldn't even desire the Rite at that point anyway.

We have no clue if you can actually resurrect through the Rite of Ressurection. This was kinda put up for interpretation through the whole game, like how Iwai tried to do a Rite of Youth or something and it didn't end up working, or with Nejima.. although in Nejima's case it's a little more confusing, given that he might have summoned Shino through black magic, and that she could have been rebirthed as Ayame but. Idk. That part is intentionally up to the player.

I think it's for sure that Ashino died not only from Seinen's perspective, but also with what is written from The Foot-Washing Mansion. Once you learn about it's curse-echo, it details what happened with Ashino after her foot being cursed. Which would have also had the accounts of those she tried to make her wash her foot, as well as like. All of Honjo back then, it was stated that they didn't forget or anything, just kept quiet. So the backstory of all of the Curses would have to be accurate. Especially so since everything in the Files tab is supposed to be factual so..

The most that Ashino could have handed down was the Record of Fates, which detailed how to do the Rite of Ressurection (thats how it was passed down to Yoko to give to Hideki), and since Seinen couldn't seal that away, he wrote the Yin scroll as an addendum.

I'd have to replay the part where Erio and Mio die from Yoko to know if The Storyteller said anything like that, but from my recollection it was that we just had the power to stop it from happening. I believe that was a real timeline for the hypothetical case of if Yoko was able to get away with her plan, and that timeline was needed to be seen by Seinen in order to understand how to stop it.

This game is pretty tricky to talk about .. LOL

I don't think Michiyo became vengeful until she saw the scene in the school, to add.

Also, yeah, it wasn't a "it didn't happen" so much as we could undo it.

As an aside, you need to look at the game as one big play performance. The Storyteller is wearing a traditional mask from a specific type of play where the old man mask is often the Narrator.

[Aris]

Also, regarding Shogo's kills and the Storyteller, if you answer anything but "1", he says that you are wrong, as we'll find out. So, in other words, this is the game directly telling us that Shogo unconsciously killed only Yoko through the Cleansing

This is not true. If you use the curse on all 5 (that is, you press the button yourself), then the correct answer is 0. If you don't use the curse on anyone (so then it's Shogo who uses the curse), then the correct answer is 5. So the storyteller doesn't count Yoko as being killed by Shogo.

At the end he explicitly explains that Yoko is killed by Seinen's mind subconscious.

Also, I'm not arguing that Shogo had the Beckoning Light curse stone, but he still technically had to be a curse bearer before he got the Whispering Canal in the first place to even pick up Yoko's Whispering Canal after her death (as evidenced by what Mio said to Yakko about her possession and her trying to take her curse stone, but failing to do so because she wasn't actually a curse bearer).

Mio just says he felt the need to return the stone to the bearer. So all we know is that the stone wants to return to the bearer, but it accepts being in possession of another bearer. But Yoko is dead. What Mio says doesn't aply here, the stone is now "free", there's no bearer to return to. Shogo becomes the new bearer after the previous one dies, it's a different case.

[timemon]

There's a small question lingering in my mind after completing the game.

Why did Yoko freak out in the Prologue? At first I believed it was because she saw the Beckoning Light and was in shock (and then the player cursed her by clicking the PUSH button that was conveniently in the same place as Use Curse)

What if Yoko's freak out was so that she could get Shogo to turn away, thus fulfilled the condition of the curse, but she didn't know Shogo already had a curse stone with him and the curse activated itself to protect him.

This would explain why on the alternate timeline, we didn't turn away from her and she didn't die. She did not have the opportunity to use the curse on us, so she pretended to go home and came back to kill Shogo again later.

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this, this game is so niche it's hard to have a discussion haha

[Aris]

Originally posted by timemon:

There's a small question lingering in my mind after completing the game.

Why did Yoko freak out in the Prologue? At first I believed it was because she saw the Beckoning Light and was in shock (and then the player cursed her by clicking the PUSH button that was conveniently in the same place as Use Curse)

What if Yoko's freak out was so that she could get Shogo to turn away, thus fulfilled the condition of the curse, but she didn't know Shogo already had a curse stone with him and the curse activated itself to protect him.

This would explain why on the alternate timeline, we didn't turn away from her and she didn't die. She did not have the opportunity to use the curse on us, so she pretended to go home and came back to kill Shogo again later.

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this, this game is so niche it's hard to have a discussion haha

Yes, Yoko just wants Shogo tu turn away to use her curse on him. Shogo doesn't have any curse stone, though. It's Seinen who protects Shogo casting the Beckoning Light curse on Yoko. That's why not turning away saves Yoko: the Whispering Canal can't activate and so the Bekoning Light doesn't either (here I'm unsure if it's becasue the Beckoning Light functions as a reflect so if the Whispering Canal condition is not met nothing happens, or if it's just that Seinen doesn't cast it in this case since Shogo is safe).

The problem with the idea of the Beckoning Light functioning as a reflect is that I can't think how Shogo can die in the other route (edit: to be clear, in the route where Yoko dies) by being drown. If the Beckoning Light can just freely be cast on a bearer, then it's Seinen who kills Shogo before he can resurrect Yoko.