Early Sign Caster Versus Melee Build (Analysis, Tips, Observations, Guide)

[stcaFylnO]

Even though a sign build is fun, there are many biases:

Sustainable DPS balance is clearly superior using sword, even with a sign build (Blasphemer's Armor, Moon Runes, Moon Sword, Petri's...). See the Character sheet: Even with 33 sign damage (bonus rating) and only 15-24 sword rating, enemies are interupted and killed efficiently with light attacks, while Vitality for signs requires long delays with damage that does not make up for the low rate of fire.

Sword builds can easily drink 3 potions without excess Toxicity, while a caster will hit 90% Toxicity with just Petri's and Lapwing. Sure, someone can recommend the Alchemy tree, but it is hardly worth the investment in the long run. Additionally, where would these points come from in early game? [Edit: This does not work like W1, no detrimental effects noticed while poisoned]

Tricks up Geralts sleeves: Throw a Samum, get a lucky CC, use Whirl and be a weed whacker; versus a sign user, who thows a Dragon's Dream, ignites it, only to find out it did the low trap damage rating twice and Igni damage does not seem to be included. Blade Oils don't seem to affect sign damage, unless I'm overlooking something. Too bad about all this, because the caster could really use a more viable early game AoE and damage boost. Sure, someone could recommend 2 points to boost the bomb damage, but good luck... where will the points be stolen from?

The signs are no longer as variable in usage as they were in Witcher 1. Remember being able to decide between an AoE and a ranged Igni? That was heaven for a caster.

A plethera of gear available, even in Act 1 that provide bonuses to HP, Armor, and melee damage (even up to +9 damage with a Troll Trophy that is worthy of using in end-game), but hardly anything for signs. Some alternaives exist, like trying to get 3-4 Kayran skins to drop, just to boost Vitality Regen with reinforcemnts, when Diamon Reinforcemnts are available as soon as the player wants them in Act 1. Meanwhile Vitality Regen is good for melee too, so it is a double win for that build. [Edit: See later posts, I have given up on V-Regen]

Signs abilities are quite limited in early game. Level 8 sees the first talent point available and where should it go? +5 sign damage, or increased mobility? Not hard to decide... battlefield mobility is what wins. In fact, it would take 5 levels to even get an AoE Igni, or ~10 levels to really make it worthwhile (Bonuses for damage, Vigor, Incineration, intensity). Meanwhile, a sword build can easily finish the game with nothing more than 1 point in each of Footwork, Position, Violence, and Whirl. Not to mention, a caster should consider those anyway.

Chances of CC effects have been drastically limited comapred to Witcher 1. One of the best forms of reliable CC appears to be Yrden; but due to the value of backstabs, again, sword wielders see more benefit and it is basically the most reliable, economical, and convenient choice. It is somewhat functional from the start, but truly shines with 2 points boosting intensity later.

The range of signs are initially so low, they might as well be like they were in Witcher 1. A sign user can get 1-shotted from behind by a little Nekker in Act 1 very easily due to the short range. Even if the Geralt is using Blasphemer's Armor (chest) and Diamond Reinforcements, do NOT get hit in the back, even once. Sure, later in the game, this is resolved.

There are no Greater Concentration Mutagens. Madness Mutagens cannot be acquired via mixtures, only as incredibly rare drops. I farmed an incredible amount and only saw 2 in Normal... higher difficulties supposedly have lower drop rates for loot. [Edit: ~260 hours game-play saw 10 Madness Mutagens, but now that I know how to farm them, probably 10 hours per mutagen]

To truly boost a characters performance to the utmost, a generalist build with 8 impregnated Mutagens slots, then using the Impregnation exploit is preferred. In doing so, it will require a minimum of 8 talent points in the sword tree at all times and 6-7 temporarily in Alchemy; this makes it even more difficult to boost the sign tree early on.

The poor sign user has to decide between Moon Runes and Fire Runes. One will boost damage and the other will increase the incineration of Igni. Meanwhile the sword build will just take Fire Runes for a boost to damage and to incinerate!

Although not much concern initially, sign resistant enemies exist, while the sword works handily on everything throughout the game.

Finally, the thing that impedes early casters the most, is the new tree design, which forces the caster to diverge on the tree while also hindering specialization. Meanwhile the sword tree, as stated above, really only needs those 4 points all the way through the end of game and even the caster should invest in those also.

Late game note: Finally, at levels near 35, in Act 3, with equipment becoming available, lots of talent points, the impregnation exploit and hopefully 8 Madness Mutagens, the caster finally becomes a wonder to behold... I LOVED IT, but there were hardly any fights left to use him in.

{Edit}: I forgot to mention that in Act 1, Igni can be observed falling short and especially, missing a target because it moves... no heat-seekers. The latter is less noticable late game, since the AoE masks the symptom, but early game with only 3 Vitality, it can be a ♥♥♥♥♥♥. So, the caster uses a light attack, to leap at an enemy, get in its face, and fire point-blank just to be sure... now the caster is wishing for melee defenses. The alternative is risk missing at a safe-ish range. BEWARE! In addition, corpses, like those from Endraga, will block ranged signs like Igni.

[stcaFylnO]

Quen deserves to be popped-out of that long list; it is also more of an end-game concern in some ways:

It is best used as a backup for when a melee fighter takes an unexpected hit. Sure, it can be boosted, but any mob that can hit it and worry the player, can break it in one hit anyway.

Meanwhile, the caster cannot regen Vigor while using it, so either raise the shields or fire photon torpedos, but both is rather problematic in a sustained fight.

It is pretty fun to play around with though. Get the Summer's Crown, boost intensity, number of enemies affected, sign damage and all that, then watch the fire blossom on screen.

[stcaFylnO]

Every time I go back in the game, I see anohter reason.

Act 1 abounds with Nekkers and Endraga, which sets the scene for a rarity, where most enemies are vulnverable to bleeding. It is much easier to set up a sword wielder to cause the effect, after all, where is the sign that causes bleed?

[therussmeister]

And of course, Adrenaline generates much slower using Signs. I just finished a Sign playthrough, next time I'll go sword, I expect it will be much easier. Still, it was fun.

[stcaFylnO]

That is a great catch, thanks man.

Did you happen to notice if Yrden with Glyph Enhancement 2 generates Adrenalin?

I forgot to check the behavior of how spells generate Adrenaline, such as: Per cast of spells, effects over time, damage based (initial vs. over time), AoE on main target only or all targets.

[stcaFylnO]

Lately, I have been playing Act 1 with a new early game caster. All that Geralt has is 1 point in Footwork due to being low level. Thank Melitele that it is on Dark mode, because atleast he can have Blasphemer's chest armor.

Even with an imported Moon Sword, 3 Moon Runes, Petri's Philter, Mage's Trousers, and Blasphemer's bonuses, it only provides a 33 total sign modifier; 1-shots on small Nekkers are possible, but everything else requires at least 2 of his 3 Vigor.

Damage is roughly 36-39 with Igni, but his backstabs are still around 70. The value of Footwork and perpetual tumbling is easily noticed. Additonally, Position to off-set the higher enemy damage on Dark and Whirl to cause multiple interuptions versus crowds is sorely missesd. Will an AoE Igni at level 12-13 be more valuable than Position and Whirl first?

[***Edit/Retraction: The 36-39 Igni damage is without Petri's. I keep forgetting that it is about 45-49 with the potion. ***]


The best use of offensive signs, seems to be Igni, which can cause interuptions without the kill-cutscene hassles of Aard; meanwhile, Yrden is far superior to Aard in W2 as CC, since Aard was nerfed.

I suppose Act 1 usage of Quen and Axii should be mentioned: Quen is and always will be used to block 1 attack per casting, but it is much more valuable with Summer's Crown and some Critical Fire bonus; it can be a life saver in the right situation, but I rarely use it. Axii can of course be used for distractions, but it is rarely required and usually more for fun (except possibly vs. Wraiths at such a low character level).

Finally, the caster really needs an AoE. Dragon's Dream worked well with Igni, but I save it for giant crowds when it is a dire situation, because Scleroderm are needed for so many recipes. Keep in mind it only causes the trap damage twice, without including Igni.

[therussmeister]

Pretty sure I didn't raise Glyph to level 2, which was dumb. Yrden's pretty handy, would be worth it.

[stcaFylnO]

Yeppers, Yrden went from being rarely useful in W1, to the most useful in W2.

Yrden for the win: When I was stunning and melting 2-3 gargoyles at a time, I couldn't believe it.

It cracks me up; I looked online for tips on builds, saw comments like: Selections don't matter, do what you want; Aard and Igni are all you neeed to use; Quen is the only sign you need [and implied that it could absorb many attacks]. It is like the people giving advice were pasting in their comments from Witcher 1.

[stcaFylnO]

It seems only fair to espouse relevant virtues of this low level caster.

With roughly a 25 sign rating, Igni is great for 2-shot kills of humans/elves. This means no more manuevering for a backstab and putting up with their seemingly perpetual blocks/parrys.

With ~25 sign rating, Igni is functional enough to rely on ranged combat, although it is slow; this can be used when Geralt is low on health, or an opportunity to gain XP might be lost otherwise.

Igni, especially if Petri's is consumed, can deal lethal damage to enemy leaders at high speed.

Igni is fantastic for interupting front facing enemies, especially if charging. Disclaimer: Even a melee build could perform this move, but it would lack the damage potential.

[Edit: Cat causes -10% melee damage, signs are supposedly un-affected; however, Cat is only necessary within one cavern during Act 2. Also, the melee build has Flare as a poor alternative]

[stcaFylnO]

Vigor Regeneration During Combat (VRDC) is extremely difficult to raise and a poor return on investment.

Vigor Regeneration 2, Schemer 2, Lapwing Potion, and Kayran Carapice Reinforcements x3, will only raise the VRDC to 0.34 (only 0.23 without the potion).

Even if the player includes Condensation 2 (which is unlikely in most builds and impossible during early game), the 55% bonus would only raise the VRDC to what? Something like 0.45?

Alternative Armor: Light Leather Armor (~5% increase), but it has no slots available for Kayran Carapice Reinforcements.

Another alternative is Tawny Owl for 20% bonus, but Petri's for damage seems like a better choice.

Finally, there is also the Places of Power, but I'm not even sure how it affects Geralt. I have activated the POPs, but not noticed his stats change on the character sheet.

In practical tests, using the VRDC of 0.45, Geralt can deplete 3 bars of Vigor and replenish them roughly 1 second faster than a character using none or a minimal investment. Therefore, I prefer just to use diamond quality armor reinforcements until Magic Wraps are available in the end game.

[stcaFylnO]

Skill/Talent Points

Edit: Be warned that unlocking Impregnation for Mutagen Slots is valuable early in Act 2. Unlock Impregnation prior to Ehnhanced Yrden, Energy Flow, etc., and begin filling Mutagen Slots.

At approximately level 17, the early caster finally begins to function well. The player can choose to become a fire-ball Ingi king, by stacking 2 points on Destructive Magic, Magic Intensification, Magical Vigor (1), Enhanced Igni Sign; note that 1 pre-requisite point is needed in Enhanced Quen. Later the build can be fleshed out easily due to the satisfactory performance of AoE Igni.

Alternatively, spending the 8 points to reach Control Over the Power would provide many benefits, but it makes the game much more difficult than being the king of Igni. However, it still may be desirable if building a Mutagen-Generalist (Sign+Sword).

Either way, the early caster has reached a critical threshold and can be considered a viable build from this point forward. Keep in mind, it will still suffer from limitations compared to say... a Power Mutagen Generalist (Sign+Sword) that relies on massive melee backstabs along with economical incapacitation via Yrden.

[stcaFylnO]

~17th level benefits:

The king of Ingi has satisfactory damage output, with the ability to 1-shot early game enemies, such as Endraga; however, other variants will still take 2 shots, while queens require ~5.

This becomes a very safe build to play: The ranged AoE with 5 or 6 Vigor is more than enough for most battles. Just remember to buy time and recharge Vigor by using Yrden, Axii, fleeing, etc.

By avoiding the use of Quen, Vigor recharging is managable due to the 5 or 6 bar buffer. If Quen is necessary, it will still leave quite a few fireballs possible.

The AoE radius is large enough to clear small confined spaces, which the developers like to use as traps against the player.

Not only are near misses good enough, but the range to garget increases to include the radius.

The Moon Sword with 3 Moon Runes can be kept for quite a while as a wand. Additionally, only one sword is needed, since humans can be wiped out with Igni. 17 sign bonus on this weapon is very nice (3 Moon Runes).

[stcaFylnO]

Act 1, Unique Battles:
I was pleasantly surprised by the Igni King versus Letho and hardened enemies (Endraga Queen, etc.).

Kayran: I use a sword to conserve Vigor for Quen and Yrden with various melee and sign builds.
Letho: Yrden and Backstab for melee; spam Igni, kite/recharge, Igni... until Letho goes down.
Queen Endraga: ~15 Snares stacked, multiple Igni, or Yrden with backstabs.
Greater Rotfiend: Same as Endraga, except dodging away at the climax.
Aracha: Use ally as bait, same as Queen Endraga (except snares).
Humanoids: Igni King rules when attacking the barge (Ioverth's path).

[stcaFylnO]

WANDS for Casters:

I higly recommend importing the Moon Sword from W1, especially if you like casting signs. Combined with 3 Moon Runes, it provides *17* bonus sign rating. Without it, I HATE early level casters.

There won't be a good "wand" in lieu of the Moon Sword until you craft a Robust Witcher's Meteorite Silver Sword in Act 2 and it only has two slots, so it can only achieve 15 rating. Other than that, a caster is waiting until Act 3.

Even in Act 3, the Zerrikanterment Silver & the Subperb Blue Meteorite Silver Swords max out with Moon Runes for a 18 & 22 rating (respectively). So as you can see, the Witcher 1 Moon Sword can be quite valuable depending upon the character build. I even have my melee guys carry it as an alternate weapon.

There is the Operator's Staff in Act 3, but it will only help Incineration (for the most part) and it allows no Runes. Additionally, this item is mutually exclusive with the Impregnation exploit.

[Edit: I forgot to mention swords for melee builds, but it really doesn't matter; they are so numerous, just select ones that have synergy with the build, loadout, and tactics]

[stcaFylnO]

Near the end of chapter 1, Geralt could achieve approximately level 19, then level 22 by the time they arrive at camp/town in chapter 2.

Casters should try to spend every point possible to improve DPS prior to leaving chapter 1. Melee players have no such concerns.

[Edit: Remember to plan ahead of saving points for Impregnation generalist builds]

[stcaFylnO]

Act 1-2 Transition: Caster vs. melee skill recommendations.

Skill selections for melee centric builds don't matter much, but they are imperative for casters; choices can make gameplay seem impossible to incredibly easy, even on Dark.

As stated previously, a generalist with only 1 point in each slot of the sign tree will not be an effective caster and they will face more challenging progression; the minimal Sword investments will typically win the day.

Igni King is easy enough, provided: Impregnation is unlocked ASAP while also opening the 5 Mutagen Slots within Sign and Training trees. The 3 Mutagen Slots within Sword can wait till later and will not be achievable until the end of chapter 2, or start of chapter 3. Conversely, the generalist could always gain the Sword's Mutagen Slots first, which would be more valuable than Control Over the Power, even if they primarily cast Igni.

The key is to implement those Madness Mutagens! As therussmiester pointed out, Adrenaline builds extremely slow for a caster. In fact, my casters are typically generalists who rely on the sword to generate Adrenaline. Therefore, the 15 points for sign based damage (Mutagens) is highly prized over unlocking Control Over the Power. Eventually, the full 21 Mutagen points will be available, or more if building an Alchemy-Sign Generalist.

Edit:
Roche's path saw level 34 upon start of Act 3, Ioverth's was 34 before crossing mist in Act 2. Both were subjected to extreme farming for Madness Mutagens. Therefore, a caster will be fully powered up during middle of Act 2 by helping the elves, which is very helpful for caster's DPS.