Devs, please learn from the mistakes of "Sea of Stars"

[Lavose]

Chrono Trigger is arguable the best game ever made. Following in those footsteps will be a difficult feat. Ultimately Chrono trigger was a games based off it's story telling while all the other elements seemed to be worked around that. That is the corner stone of where one should start building. Sea of stars is an example of mechanics and graphics being the corner stone, then a story being added into that.

While Sea of Stars was gorgeous, had fun areas to explore, a fantastic mini-game, a combat system that was engaging... it really fell flat when it came to the characters.
The protagonists could have been named: A1 & B2 as their depth of character was as corrugated as cardboard.
One character is so shrouded in so much teasing mystery, that when their plot is revealed later in the game, the player feels indifferent.
Another character holds god-like power, but chooses not to help to their full extent because of, emotional reasons?
The only character that has any depth is Garl, whom is the obnoxious optimist type.
I wont mention the late game "fart in a bottle".
Two thirds through the game, there is a "reverse" Deus ex Machina which muddies the story of the game to the point that is become unsatisfying and immersion breaking to the player.

Sea of stars with its flaws, is still a good game but there are elements to learn from.

it would behove your game to focus on the depth of character development and their relations to the people in your world. This alone can be the defining point of what takes a game from being mediocre to being phenomenal. "Thomas was Alone" is a masterclass in this regard as storytelling is the key to success; Good story telling that makes you weep for jumping geometric shapes.
"Journey" is a masterclass in "Show don't tell," in that it manages to get you emotionally invested in the lore and history of the land without ever speaking a word of dialogue.

The corner stones of a great game start with a story and built upwards.
If the story is good, then the player can invest themselves in a protagonist like Chrono, whom never even speaks.
While the Sea of Stars protagonists do speak, but have nothing important to say.

[Elseworlds]

I don't agree that good games start with a good story. Good games start with excellent gameplay systems that mesh well together. Games like Super Mario, Sonic, Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider 1&2, etc weren't great because of their commitment to excellent storytelling. They were great at getting you hooked on the fun inherent in their gameplay mechanics.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by Elseworlds:

I don't agree that good games start with a good story. Good games start with excellent gameplay systems that mesh well together. Games like Super Mario, Sonic, Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider 1&2, etc weren't great because of their commitment to excellent storytelling. They were great at getting you hooked on the fun inherent in their gameplay mechanics.

It's weird, it feels like a lot of JRPG fans would be satisfied with playing VNs but they stubbornly would rather tack on 40 hours of gameplay they don't seem to want.

[Dakunclear]

I found the story and battle system in Sea of Stars kinda boring at best compared to Chrono Trigger. I will agree that the characters are duller than a rusty blade that was used to much during it's prime haha.

But we can only pray that they build the game with an amazing story first then hit up the battle system or make it similar to Chrono Trigger's ATB.

[Kasa]

A great story can survive basic mechanics if those mechanics are well polished.

But bad mechanics can kill a game no matter how great a story it is, it's very much a hand in hand kind of thing.

The gameplay does not need to be innovative but it does need to at least be polished.

The story is much harder because that will be hit or miss with people.

Look at the Monster Hunter franchise, no one complains about the story being bad in those games, the story is never GOOD (but it's getting there with the newer releases).

But the game survives because the mechanics carry it hard.

Now the issue is JRPG's tend to be boring mechanically, EXP grinding put's and incredible hamper on the flow of the plot so the mechanics have to be so unobtrusive as to not stagnate the plot or the plot so generic with mechanics so fun no on cares anyways.

I think it was Octopath Traveler(?) that the combat was so good people didn't really care the plot was only mediocre.

Xenosaga Ep 2 (subjectively) being on the other end with great story but pretty bad game play feel.

[The22nd]

Please remember we are playing video games. If you want well written characters, read a book or some fantasy manga

[SR]

Originally posted by The22nd:

Please remember we are playing video games. If you want well written characters, read a book or some fantasy manga

Brain dead comment. Gameplay alone doesnt keep ppl paying a rpg that can be dozens of hours

[Melodia]

Originally posted by SR:

Brain dead comment. Gameplay alone doesnt keep ppl paying a rpg that can be dozens of hours

Except when it does,

[Lavose]

Originally posted by The22nd:

Please remember we are playing video games. If you want well written characters, read a book or some fantasy manga

Could you please give an example of a 'turn based' RPG where plot / lore / character development isn't integral to the gameplay?

[Melodia]

Originally posted by Lavose:

Could you please give an example of a 'turn based' RPG where plot / lore / character development isn't integral to the gameplay?

A large number of them before about the mid 90s. Including the original Dragon Quest and original Final Fantasy.

And if you want more recent stuff, Etruian Odyssey games for sure count. And the indie title Scarmonde. Neither of these have a cutscene in site.

[Lavose]

Originally posted by Elseworlds:

I don't agree that good games start with a good story. Good games start with excellent gameplay systems that mesh well together. Games like Super Mario, Sonic, Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider 1&2, etc weren't great because of their commitment to excellent storytelling. They were great at getting you hooked on the fun inherent in their gameplay mechanics.

The games you mentioned have beauty in their story simplicity. Sea of Stars attempts, in so many words, an epic narrative with memorable characters, and falls flat.

[Lavose]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by Lavose:

Could you please give an example of a 'turn based' RPG where plot / lore / character development isn't integral to the gameplay?

A large number of them before about the mid 90s. Including the original Dragon Quest and original Final Fantasy.

And if you want more recent stuff, Etruian Odyssey games for sure count. And the indie title Scarmonde. Neither of these have a cutscene in site.

My argument isn't about cutscenes. But a story being told. It looks like scarmonde has a very interesting and somewhat meta storyline, on first trailer glance, anyway.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by Lavose:

Could you please give an example of a 'turn based' RPG where plot / lore / character development isn't integral to the gameplay?

A large number of them before about the mid 90s. Including the original Dragon Quest and original Final Fantasy.

FF and dq had interesting gameplay? lol

i agree with you, op. Suikoden also had extremely basic gameplay but it was memorable to many players because of the characters and the drama. Eiyuden, objectively, had better gameplay, but the characters were not that interesting, that game is quickly forgotten by many player.s

[Yamza]

I know the story is Sea of Stars ended up being a bit trash but the real problem for me was that combat never really got any more interesting after an hour in, and the game being so combat heavy just got way too tedious.

[Skurd]

Battles in Sea of Stars just become sluggish and slow and super repetitive. Just doing the same stuff over and over again gets boring quickly. Also even with excessive grinding the fights still felt as slow as ever.

The little minigame on abilities was fun at the start. But over time just boring.

Visually it looked nice at least.

[StackzGaming]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by Elseworlds:

I don't agree that good games start with a good story. Good games start with excellent gameplay systems that mesh well together. Games like Super Mario, Sonic, Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider 1&2, etc weren't great because of their commitment to excellent storytelling. They were great at getting you hooked on the fun inherent in their gameplay mechanics.

It's weird, it feels like a lot of JRPG fans would be satisfied with playing VNs but they stubbornly would rather tack on 40 hours of gameplay they don't seem to want.

Our existential crisis:

Danganronpa , AI: Somnium Files, 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim and Rain Code are horrible games with fantastic characters.

Great Ace Attorney Chronicles is a basic game with basic characters.

Ara Fell is a decent game with good characters.

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Dynasty Warriors: Origins are good games with great characters.

Dynasty Warriors: Origins is a good game with great characters.

Fire Emblem: Three Houses is a decent game with fantastic characters.

Valkyria Chronicles 1 is a good game with fantastic characters.

Dragon Quest VIII (PS2) is a fantastic game with fantastic characters.


In other words (and arguably this is true when you're older vs. younger)...it starts with the characters, how they're scripted, how they interact, how they behave and how they fit into the world. If the characters suck, nothing else matters. Even Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat and Tekken had to put some basic storyline behind the characters to make people care.

Most visual novels excel in the character arena all well and good. But there has to be some basic interaction that doesn't involve a bunch of grinding.

The grinding wasn't part of RPGs back in the era of games like Suikoden 1 or Secret of Evermore. Secret of Evermore in particular had completely forgettable characters despite being one of the best games of the era.