Statues and Area Mods duplicates

[MrDB]

I'm trying to defeat all optional bosses in one run but RNG doesn't respect my intensions. Last game I survived 70 mortality without a single area mod for Ghost boss.
Can we slightly reduce RNG hell and get rid of duplicates?

When there are more than 1 area with mod to select, can we have guaranteed different mods? Currently they can be the same.
Similarly, 'Echo formation' upgrade adds second statue to area with mod - can we have guaranteed 2 different ones? Currently they can be the same.

[Stepford]

I'll add both to the list. Sorry about the run!

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by MrDB:

I'm trying to defeat all optional bosses in one run but RNG doesn't respect my intensions. Last game I survived 70 mortality without a single area mod for Ghost boss.
Can we slightly reduce RNG hell and get rid of duplicates?

When there are more than 1 area with mod to select, can we have guaranteed different mods? Currently they can be the same.
Similarly, 'Echo formation' upgrade adds second statue to area with mod - can we have guaranteed 2 different ones? Currently they can be the same.

While it might take a while, one thing you could try is hitting restart in options until it gives you it as a modifier, then all you need to do is get hit once to skew the item drop ratio of a rainbow elite so that it's far more likely to give you a health capsule.

Not a perfect solution, but hopefully it helps!

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Not a perfect solution, but hopefully it helps!

you're kind of missing the point. the point is that the RNG can screw you out of the run.

currently, this is the RNG for this run:

all hidden boss trigger methods must spawn at least once.
all hidden bosses require an item dropped by RNG (usually a bomb, but in this case it is health.)

this was not so much a problem when there were a grand total of two hidden bosses. now the count is at least 4 (i feel like i'm forgetting one, though,) and it is very important to note that defeating a hidden boss does not take them or their summoning method out of RNG's rotation.

so yea, while you can restart till you can get ghost on the first stage, that does nothing to address the other bosses getting to spawn in within two loops of start, which is what OP was complaining about.

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Not a perfect solution, but hopefully it helps!

you're kind of missing the point. the point is that the RNG can screw you out of the run.

currently, this is the RNG for this run:

all hidden boss trigger methods must spawn at least once.
all hidden bosses require an item dropped by RNG (usually a bomb, but in this case it is health.)

this was not so much a problem when there were a grand total of two hidden bosses. now the count is at least 4 (i feel like i'm forgetting one, though,) and it is very important to note that defeating a hidden boss does not take them or their summoning method out of RNG's rotation.

so yea, while you can restart till you can get ghost on the first stage, that does nothing to address the other bosses getting to spawn in within two loops of start, which is what OP was complaining about.

I don't recall saying anything to the effect of the RNG being fine? Kind of weird to go off on a tangent like that.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

I don't recall saying anything to the effect of the RNG being fine? Kind of weird to go off on a tangent like that.

no, you gave advice for getting ghost quick. which would be fine if simply fighting ghost was the issue. the issue is fighting all hidden bosses before the third loop.

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

I don't recall saying anything to the effect of the RNG being fine? Kind of weird to go off on a tangent like that.

no, you gave advice for getting ghost quick. which would be fine if simply fighting ghost was the issue. the issue is fighting all hidden bosses before the third loop.

Yes, because it's the one boss that you have the lowest amount of methods in forcing it to show up? For Yuki and Diver you can at least take the statue skills that allow you to effectively 're-roll' the ones you get in a stage, potentially letting you get four to show up over the course of one. Likewise, you get a total of five chances to get the ghost to show up per loop.

And again for emphasis: no it is not ideal, but coding takes time so I offered advice to OP to maybe give them something to work with in the meanwhile.

[sora]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

no, you gave advice for getting ghost quick. which would be fine if simply fighting ghost was the issue. the issue is fighting all hidden bosses before the third loop.

Yes, because it's the one boss that you have the lowest amount of methods in forcing it to show up? For Yuki and Diver you can at least take the statue skills that allow you to effectively 're-roll' the ones you get in a stage, potentially letting you get four to show up over the course of one. Likewise, you get a total of five chances to get the ghost to show up per loop.

And again for emphasis: no it is not ideal, but coding takes time so I offered advice to OP to maybe give them something to work with in the meanwhile.

You could also take the guaranteed blackhole bomb drop post boss to get Umi out of the way. I don't know, it only took me two tries. Hardest part for me was getting the Statue of Experience to show up surprisingly. There's a lot of ways to reduce the statue RNG with the loadout skill, but the area modifier one I agree with.

I had all the optional bosses done by Mortality 32.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Yes, because it's the one boss that you have the lowest amount of methods in forcing it to show up? For Yuki and Diver you can at least take the statue skills that allow you to effectively 're-roll' the ones you get in a stage, potentially letting you get four to show up over the course of one. Likewise, you get a total of five chances to get the ghost to show up per loop.

but, again, getting one optional boss does not remove their associated item from the pool. even with 2 statues and pulling a new one when one is broken, there's no guarantee RNG will smile on you.

i mean, i can reroll drills 8 times and not see the one i want once.

furthermore, it does not address the second layer of RNG in the slightest. case in point, more than five times have i been on a stage with a statue i need to destroy. full health, full black holes. not one single bomb drops the entire wave.

also, i'm not so sure umi is as simple as stated. there have been many times that for some reason, umi does not appear after the proper mortality has passed. to be clear, is the condition:
leave a black hole pickup out for 4 mortality
or is it
leave a black hole pickup out for 4 mortality while you have full black hole stock.
either way, umi has failed to spawn for me more than once.

edit: confused umi for yuki.

[sora]

Personally, my route was just
Picayune Suit, just preference, you can probably do it with Default. Take the "Boss drops a Blackhole Bomb pickup, and the abilities that let you reroll statues, and that two statues show up in a zone with a modifier.

Reroll until Horror appears as Stage 1 selection. Take a hit so vials start dropping from Rainbow enemies or debris. If it doesn't show, you can circle back on it.
Ideally though, defeat Ghost. If you struggle with the fight and can't beat him. Try getting to higher overdrives. Higher overdrives you'd think means harder fights, but it ends up being a lot easier due to EXP Modifier being so powerful.

Leave the Blackhole Bomb from Rabbit out, let it sit there in the corner of your screen. Go to another stage with a modifier to get Umi to appear. If Umi appears in Stage 2, approach when Umi has blue around them to initiate the boss. If Umi doesn't show up. STILL LEAVE THE BOMB THERE. As Umi's timer to appear doesn't reset between stages as far as I'm aware.

If Statue of Gamble or Experience appear, divert from finding Umi as only one secret boss can spawn per stage. Blow up either, fight them, that knocks a much worse conditional one out of the way, as it requires a specific statue while Umi is just Blackhole Bomb + Stage with Modifier.

tl;dr

Stage 1 : Ghost
Stage 2 : Umi, Gimmiko, or Diver, depending on statue. Prioritize Gimmiko or Diver.
Stage 3 : Whoever you didn't pick in stage 2.
Stage 4 : Whoever you didn't pick in Stage 3.

If you don't get them to appear in this timeframe. Continue the run until you do. The game doesn't get unstable until post A. Picayune.

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Yes, because it's the one boss that you have the lowest amount of methods in forcing it to show up? For Yuki and Diver you can at least take the statue skills that allow you to effectively 're-roll' the ones you get in a stage, potentially letting you get four to show up over the course of one. Likewise, you get a total of five chances to get the ghost to show up per loop.

but, again, getting one optional boss does not remove their associated item from the pool. even with 2 statues and pulling a new one when one is broken, there's no guarantee RNG will smile on you.

i mean, i can reroll drills 8 times and not see the one i want once.

furthermore, it does not address the second layer of RNG in the slightest. case in point, more than five times have i been on a stage with a statue i need to destroy. full health, full black holes. not one single bomb drops the entire wave.

also, i'm not so sure umi is as simple as stated. there have been many times that for some reason, umi does not appear after the proper mortality has passed. to be clear, is the condition:
leave a black hole pickup out for 4 mortality
or is it
leave a black hole pickup out for 4 mortality while you have full black hole stock.
either way, umi has failed to spawn for me more than once.

edit: confused umi for yuki.

Good god, you're basically arguing for the sake of it now, missing the entire point of the first post I made.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Good god, you're basically arguing for the sake of it now, missing the entire point of the first post I made.

this is because your first post is off topic.

for the third time, the issue is not simply summoning ghost. summoning ghost early will not make the other hidden bosses any more likely or unlikely to be possible to spawn.

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Good god, you're basically arguing for the sake of it now, missing the entire point of the first post I made.

this is because your first post is off topic.

for the third time, the issue is not simply summoning ghost. summoning ghost early will not make the other hidden bosses any more likely or unlikely to be possible to spawn.

Why are you intentionally misconstruing what I said?

You have up to 20 chances to get the statues you need in one loop.

You have 5 fixed chances to have the ghost show up in one loop.

If a ghost modifier doesn't show up, you have 0 influence over making it show up beyond restarting the run until it is the first modifier you can select.

If a gambling/t.v statue doesn't show up on stage select, you still have 3 more statues to see on said stage.

It is literally taking basic probability and ensuring you can encounter the thing you have the lowest chance of encountering normally, then focusing on the things you actually have the ability to influence.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

If a ghost modifier doesn't show up, you have 0 influence over making it show up beyond restarting the run until it is the first modifier you can select.

If a gambling/t.v statue doesn't show up on stage select, you still have 3 more statues to see on said stage.

It is literally taking basic probability and ensuring you can encounter the thing you have the lowest chance of encountering normally, then focusing on the things you actually have the ability to influence.

and there again you go and forget the second layer of RNG.

you need a specific drop. health drops far more reliably than bombs do. your "basic probability" is not so basic as you say.

it's all a moot point, anyway. game was patched to make sure that if you have the two-statue skill, the statues must not be the same, as was suggested here.

[Pumpkinreaper]

Originally posted by Thundercracker:

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

If a ghost modifier doesn't show up, you have 0 influence over making it show up beyond restarting the run until it is the first modifier you can select.

If a gambling/t.v statue doesn't show up on stage select, you still have 3 more statues to see on said stage.

It is literally taking basic probability and ensuring you can encounter the thing you have the lowest chance of encountering normally, then focusing on the things you actually have the ability to influence.

and there again you go and forget the second layer of RNG.

you need a specific drop. health drops far more reliably than bombs do. your "basic probability" is not so basic as you say.

it's all a moot point, anyway. game was patched to make sure that if you have the two-statue skill, the statues must not be the same, as was suggested here.

Health vials only spawn if you're missing health/beat a boss/get a specific statue and you can re-roll them with the skill high-roller and multiple statues exchange assorted items for health or blackholes.

How do you not know this/why did you not consider that before replying? These are basic ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechanics of the game you'd pick up on, especially someone willing to waltz into a thread randomly to argue passionately over them.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Pumpkinreaper:

Health vials only spawn if you're missing health/beat a boss/get a specific statue and you can re-roll them with the skill high-roller and multiple statues exchange assorted items for health or blackholes.

How do you not know this/why did you not consider that before replying? These are basic ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechanics of the game you'd pick up on, especially someone willing to waltz into a thread randomly to argue passionately over them.

why did i not consider it? because that's ANOTHER layer of RNG on top of the ones already mentioned!

the point of the thread is mitigating the RNG.

a thing that has already happened, the game was patched to include a suggested fix from this thread. so you can stop working yourself up to greater heights of agitation.

oh, one last thing. text lacks tone. what for you was me passionately arguing my point was to me dryly explaining to you the the issue.