I Still Don't Understand

[Rockstar McKickass]

With the sheer amount of items and their various stats and functions... How do people get decent builds?

I have put a fair amount of time into this game and since the major update, I have yet to complete a run. It seems like every single time I just end up with a hodge-podge of gear that would be great if just one or two more things would fall into place for any of it. Some of it being so oddly specific, I don't see how it would ever be useful, for example, the fencer's mask/set... Sword, okay, not bad, but then the set you need on kill and on combat start (I think those can come from different items?)... When would you ever have that specific match up to have the set and two other items that can use the set bonus? Why would you ever take that hoping the stars would ever align to be able to use it?
Throw that as one of the boss rewards with two other items so far beyond anything you could use in the foreseeable future and that's an entire boss wasted and making the rest of the run that much harder, may as well start over if you're already struggling.

I'm genuinely not trying to just complain, more attempting to give examples of my experience time and time again to see if I am legitimately missing something. I've tried doing runs with zero planning, I have tried to do some with a specific build in mind, I have tried to adapt as things come, I have tried holding on to certain things as potential back up plans... It always seems to end up the same way, a whole bunch of almost really cool synergy.

Don't know what I am doing wrong or if I just have the worst luck, but its really taken the fun out of it. *shrug

Hoping people might have some helpful suggestions or feedback, hesitant to even post this.

[Dlanor]

The sheer amount of items doesn't make getting good builds impossible because the game has smart loot. If you start as a Pyromancer you're going to have lots of pyro gear, so you will continue seeing lots of pyro gear and adjacent effects that make sense for pyro, like damage over time gear. If you pick up a piece of an item set, the game will super-boost the odds you see the remaining set pieces. If you have lots of int and dex and use a staff, when you enter an armory the game will try to spawn weapons using int and dex and you're more likely to see staffs. You don't need the stars to align, the game intentionally matches synergies fairly regularly.

If you end up with a hodgepodge it's likely because you're taking a hodgepodge. If you're offered a damage over time item while you're pure pyro, taking it might help you, but now that you have a damage over time item you're going to see more, and will potentially see stuff that maybe your pyro build doesn't want, like poison stuff, because you're telling the game you want damage over time when you take that item. Stay focused and pick up items that fit the specific build you want. Don't pick up a quiver if you're not trying to tell the game that you want to see more ranged gear and bows.

Past that, it's really all about player agency. Dice let you reroll rewards, if you're seriously feeling like boss rewards are "wasted" you need to invest in gold dice because a single one can turn a "wasted" reward into a run winning one. The dice starter gift is highly beneficial because of that, anything that lets you manipulate RNG is strong.

[Dennis]

The right traits are often much more important than the exact right item. Mostly you need broad categories (melee, two-handed, ranged...) or a specific damage type. Which is very achievable. Also, many builds are absolutely valid even without the optimal gear.

For example: I never had the Butcher's Cleaver and the Butcher's Arpon in the same run. Didn't matter, the strength scaling combined with a high strength score and beef turned that kitchen tool into an instant biss-killer.

It takes a bit to understand all the interactions. It is almost always a better choice to spcialize in a stat instead of spreading too wide. Dont tray to play two different builds jsut because you have two weapon slots. Focus on what you want to achieve. (Sounds WAY easier than it actually is. You need a bit of experience to knoe when a bow might be worth uising in a build that is more focussed on guns, for example).

I also second the importance of dice. i almost always start with the dice trinket.

Last but not least: Don't get discouraged. Player skill and experience are the best weapons in this game.

[Jamjars]

The game weights based on what you already chose. If you pick aura skills m, aura items and other aura skills are more likely to appear.

[Lanceps]

I start with a character and base my initial expectations off their perks, so with cowboy you want lucky hits = luck, archer you want repeated hits, necromancer you want to save up souls. This doesnt play a huge part because you don't have alot of control over what gear is offered to you besides the slot it goes in, but some of the characters are feasible to build around consistently, like the wizard. Then I just pick an attribute, basically whatever the character has a headstart in, and make my choices in weapons based on its performance and damage, not the scaling. I see some weapons that have S scalings but are weaker than weapons that have inferior scalings purely out of ease of use, playstyle, or sometimes how it fits within my build.

The only real thing to think hard about is the gear, what you think will help you. At first you will use gear that is clearly better than your starting stuff. But as the game goes on, you will pick gear based off of your current build/skills, not the other way around (unless the have the inventory space and opportunity cost to do so). I always get some sort of build going by the 7th stage usually, and rarely will I need some extra levelups/skills post death but it does happen. Using the hero sword is can be a cheat code to consistency, though only if you are good with its range.

I must emphasize to never pick up skills that have zero usefulness yet, though gear can usually be invested in for later if you have the space for it. With this strategy, I win every run that isnt cinder 16 consistently, but sometimes I admittedly have to really trudge through levels 2-6 if I get unlucky with weapons. I'd say that gear is what helps you get broken, and skills are really strong, but your weapon is usually the most important thing if you have nothing else. Dice are pretty huge, I take the red dice upgrade and the starting dice gift usually, which gives you so much agency over what you get. Yellow dice can be very impactful as well, especially later in the game from the boss rewards Blue dice are very good too, as you often will want to reroll traits atleast a couple times because some are pretty awful without intense synergy. The obsidian dice are obviously not very good unless you are desperate or already broken.

[LeftPaw]

I bought it last night but still can't see why people have given the game such high reviews. I mean it's a hard game but that's only because it's not easy to separate the good from bad krap that is flying around the screen. It a game of avoid the krap. The pickup are below underwhelming and the boss fights frustrating as they just bounce around the screen. As for the combat, like I said it's all down to hand to eye as you dodge bits of zhit flying around the screen.

But, up to now I see nothing here apart from a cheap mobile game. Maybe something will happen to change that but I can't think what that would be.
What the hell do you guys get from this, were the hell is the appeal? I see nothing but a mess.

[fromage_enrage]

Originally posted by LeftPaw:

I bought it last night but still can't see why people have given the game such high reviews. I mean it's a hard game but that's only because it's not easy to separate the good from bad krap that is flying around the screen. It a game of avoid the krap. The pickup are below underwhelming and the boss fights frustrating as they just bounce around the screen. As for the combat, like I said it's all down to hand to eye as you dodge bits of zhit flying around the screen.

But, up to now I see nothing here apart from a cheap mobile game. Maybe something will happen to change that but I can't think what that would be.
What the hell do you guys get from this, were the hell is the appeal? I see nothing but a mess.

1/ Shut your whiny ass up
2/ Play some more, don't rush it, figure it out, git gud
3/ Come back to the forums
4/ Praise the game

[Dlanor]

Originally posted by LeftPaw:

I bought it last night but still can't see why people have given the game such high reviews. I mean it's a hard game but that's only because it's not easy to separate the good from bad krap that is flying around the screen. It a game of avoid the krap. The pickup are below underwhelming and the boss fights frustrating as they just bounce around the screen. As for the combat, like I said it's all down to hand to eye as you dodge bits of zhit flying around the screen.

But, up to now I see nothing here apart from a cheap mobile game. Maybe something will happen to change that but I can't think what that would be.
What the hell do you guys get from this, were the hell is the appeal? I see nothing but a mess.

When basically everyone else agrees on something and you disagree, it's almost never everyone else that is wrong. You failing to learn the enemy patterns or how to get value from items does not mean they are inherently bad.

[Bystandard]

I usually go for a 2nd weapon just for alt tick damage and find a totem wand or scroll. Magic is bit unbalanced if you ask me. Load up some burn/poison/ect with a beam, then swap and drop totems, bob and weave until reward.

[LeftPaw]

Here is my typical run. I run the dungeon with relative ease. I have gotten quite good at dodging all the bits of krab that fly's around the screen.
With each room I promise myself the game will get better soon and I will see what the buzz is all about. Then comes the boss, I see the boss, the boss smack talks me, the boss kills me in a mega second. Rinse and repeat.
I think I must have had between 10/15 runs and nothing has changed. I feel I must be missing a level up screen of some sort but I can't find one, my little dude always starts the same.

45 minutes left before refund, so it's going to have to grab me soon.

[RKade83]

Use controller. Lean on auto-aim. Learn to dodge. I'm seriously disabled and I can do it. You can do it too.

[Meta Binding]

Originally posted by LeftPaw:

Here is my typical run. I run the dungeon with relative ease. I have gotten quite good at dodging all the bits of krab that fly's around the screen.
With each room I promise myself the game will get better soon and I will see what the buzz is all about. Then comes the boss, I see the boss, the boss smack talks me, the boss kills me in a mega second. Rinse and repeat.
I think I must have had between 10/15 runs and nothing has changed. I feel I must be missing a level up screen of some sort but I can't find one, my little dude always starts the same.

45 minutes left before refund, so it's going to have to grab me soon.

Click the campfire in the middle of the character select screen for a perk menu.

[Phrasing!]

I've beaten it at Cinder 16 with, I'm pretty sure, every character. Just like any game like this the main thing is to not get hit, although I've only finished maybe 5 runs without taking damage...ever. Once you start getting hit less then it opens up a lot of options since you don't have to rely on trying to stack up armor/suppression. A few other tips from my experience, although I can't say other members of the community won't disagree.

1. Don't pawn everything immediately. Hold on to things that you'd *like* to build around and see if you can pull level ups and other items with some synergy.

2. Ignore your class and stats...sometimes. My last 16 cinder run with monk ended up being a summoning build with a bunch of legendary minions doing dark damage. My last necromancer build ended up using guns and trigger damage.

3. Without turning up the difficulty it shouldn't be too hard to learn most of the bosses and never get hit. Just spend a few runs messing around and practicing just dodging their attacks rather than killing them.

4. Range is almost always superior to melee. The more range the better. Melee can crush, but you are going to have to be way more confident in your dodging since you have much less room to do it.

This is one of my favorite games in years and I almost refunded it for being too easy, but it was worth it for me as it kept opening up new challenges and stuff. I *wish* it had been hard for me at the start because of how satisfying it is when you succeed early on. I can't suggest sticking with it enough.

[Rockstar McKickass]

Originally posted by OneWhoKnox:

The sheer amount of items doesn't make getting good builds impossible because the game has smart loot. If you start as a Pyromancer you're going to have lots of pyro gear, so you will continue seeing lots of pyro gear and adjacent effects that make sense for pyro, like damage over time gear. If you pick up a piece of an item set, the game will super-boost the odds you see the remaining set pieces. If you have lots of int and dex and use a staff, when you enter an armory the game will try to spawn weapons using int and dex and you're more likely to see staffs. You don't need the stars to align, the game intentionally matches synergies fairly regularly.

If you end up with a hodgepodge it's likely because you're taking a hodgepodge. If you're offered a damage over time item while you're pure pyro, taking it might help you, but now that you have a damage over time item you're going to see more, and will potentially see stuff that maybe your pyro build doesn't want, like poison stuff, because you're telling the game you want damage over time when you take that item. Stay focused and pick up items that fit the specific build you want. Don't pick up a quiver if you're not trying to tell the game that you want to see more ranged gear and bows.

Past that, it's really all about player agency. Dice let you reroll rewards, if you're seriously feeling like boss rewards are "wasted" you need to invest in gold dice because a single one can turn a "wasted" reward into a run winning one. The dice starter gift is highly beneficial because of that, anything that lets you manipulate RNG is strong.

What I am saying though, is that I am not seeing that the game is doing what you describe with the gear.

You also just basically said that it tries to offer gear toward what is good for your class and at the same time that it doesn't... That or you are just kinda saying I am not smart enough to pick the items that are good for the class I chose and am just loading up a sorcerer with quivers and 2h swords or something.

I am saying that in most runs, with very few exceptions, I am choosing the best available items for the class I have chosen, out of what is being offered, and it ends up being a bunch of stuff that either doesn't synergize, or a bunch of stuff that will almost synergize if I get lucky with one more thing. Which often leads to a case of being presented with rewards that leave me the choice of taking something I hope will work later, thus changing the algorithm to shift what it offers, or choosing nothing, which leaves you under geared or isn't even an option in some cases.

And the dice are great, they have helped in several cases. They are limited though and I have had times where I could burn through 5 red dice and still not see an offer for an XP pickup that was the primary stat for the class.

I was hesitant to post anything at all because, for whatever reason, this game really seems to have a core group of fans that like to point out how the game is supposed to work and lay everything on the player just being dumb any time anyone posts about not having that same experience.

I have been playing this game for a while now. I do comprehend how the rules are laid out to work (for the most part, some descriptions can be vague), I also understand how most of the mechanics under the hood are supposed to work. I have been attempting to play with those things in mind and am not seeing the results other people describe. Which is why I was thinking that maybe I was missing something more specific. But maybe I just have incredibly bad luck, and there isn't much that can be done about that and its unfortunate that, while statistically improbable, can happen with this design.

I do appreciate the advice given and know that some, if not most people are genuinely coming from a helpful place, it still seems to boil down to you are describing the experience you are having with the methods you are using, and I probably should have been more clear in that I have tried a lot of those same strategies to no avail.

I am also not new to this game, I purchased it back in March of 2023 and have put almost 130 hours in.

Originally posted by Max Angor ⛏:

Use controller. Lean on auto-aim. Learn to dodge. I'm seriously disabled and I can do it. You can do it too.

While bullet hell style games may not be my strongest skill set in gaming, against all odds I have managed to "learn to dodge". Max Angor, your name, as well as your sage advice gave be a good laugh.

I don't know what else to say I guess. Lots of advice but most of it seems to be people saying what works for them which is often tied to being able to find the things needed to make a successful build fairly consistently, which I have not (it has happened, actually made it to one of the last bosses for the first time since they were added. That was 1 out of probably 15 attempts where I actually found skills and items that worked pretty okay together but it really fell off at the end despite clearly having a focus on what I was building). Or the traditional comments of how easy people find it, which is great, but my problem hasn't so much been the difficulty of the gameplay as much as struggling to have runs that present the events that make for even semi-cohesive progression.

Its not so much my skill level, or lack of. I fully grasp the concept of learning boss patterns and I have no problem with dying on the newer ones that I have never played before. I enjoy that challenge and the feeling that comes with overcoming it. I also know my limitations, I won't ever be at a level to have a no hit run, or even have much interest in mastering the game and 100%-ing the achievements. I would absolutely say that I am representative of the demographic of players that needs the benefit of builds coming together, and have tried multiple paths from one end of strictly trying to adhere to class specific/one focus pursuit, to being entire flexible and shifting to what I anticipated would work based on what is offered, and a lot of things in between. I suppose I really am just seeing bad luck run after bad luck run, which isn't something that can be fixed with practice. And while I have seen people voice having issues similar to mine, it certainly doesn't seem to be the case for a lot, if not most people. Or people don't bother posting qualms they have as those tend to be frowned on or trashed fairly consistently.

Regardless, my response has already gone well past the point in length where most people would read it so I wanted to wrap it up by saying thank you to everyone that took the time to respond, I do genuinely appreciate it and there are a few things gleaned that I will attempt to see if I can start replicating some of the results you all seem to manage. Failing that, maybe this game just isn't right form me no matter how much I would like it to be, and that is okay too.

Cheers

[RKade83]

So, I can tell within the first perk and weapon if a run is going to work 80% of the time and within the second perk and weapon 100% of the time. By floor 3, you'll be able to tell. And some perks/weapons definitely work better than others. Find the weapon types that work best for how you play and prioritize them over "better" weapons that don't fit your style. With perks, I prioritize babbies for help with tagging enemies I miss (legally blind) and auras at first. Ancestral Aid, for example, is an ass-saver even if you don't use melee weapons at least for the first 2 floors. Always try to find a permanent buff (boozer, mageblood, infusion) if you can by midway and one of the three stat doublers can be good depending on the class or build. I love resolute technique personally because I hate random chance with crits. Get an electricity weapon with 100% crushing hit chance and you can mollywhomp the game.

Patterns emerge. Use your passives to play into them. I lean hard on that first perk so I grabbed the 5 points at the start perk and the free reroll. I also love evolution weapons so I take the 30 gold and the smith can upgrade to level 4 perk. It's all about finding how you do things best and making the game's not-quite-rng play into that. It can be done. But I certainly don't win every run (or even most runs.)

[Highborne]

I currently have a 90 streak on cinder 16...rotating to play each character in order around each wheel. Out of those 90 runs, I'd say 10 were nailbiters at some moment (down to 1 hit, etc.) but usually can pull out a win. Some traits are essentially avoid at all costs, others are grab always, and my general rule is short range is difficult, so find something far range.

Also, use a controller.