Tiny Rogues

Tiny Rogues

View Stats:
This topic has been locked
[R-K] WARLORD Jan 16, 2024 @ 7:12pm
2
Alignment system is awful
Tired of having to plan carefully to do a run to unlock a class. Also just learned selling certain items to the pawn shop can change alignment. Items you cannot purchase in the black market because they brick alignment. The real cherry on top is getting only ONE good shop an entire run for some reason on gunslinger, making it impossible to have even got to the heaven throne if i bought all 3 items in the first shop. Yes i know there is a -1 alignment perk. Its still a boring system and you have to save souls purposefully to use it making the soul scarf abuse even more tempting because you cannot get extra hearts, stamina or mana for your build.
Last edited by [R-K] WARLORD; Jan 16, 2024 @ 7:15pm
< >
Showing 31-45 of 240 comments
Dlanor Jan 18, 2024 @ 8:24am 
Originally posted by Aleph:
I love this game, but yeah, alignments do need to be at least weighted in some way that infleuences what you are going for. Maybe pay souls/money to the bonfire or a new tavern guest to guarantee an alignment shop of your choice in the next alignment checkpoint?

I just attempted a warrior hell run and I didn't find any evil events, black market entrances, or evil shops. That's frustrating as hell.
They are weighted. By your choices and alignment. If you found no evil shops, I'm guessing you entered a law shop and bought stuff? That's not a coincidence, if you buy law stuff you're telling the game you want law stuff so it says "hey, don't spawn as much good or evil stuff, this guy wants law stuff". If you found an extremely rare run where you made perfect choices telling the game you wanted evil and it refused to give any, well that's super rare.
Last edited by Dlanor; Jan 18, 2024 @ 8:26am
Rezyn Jan 18, 2024 @ 8:27am 
Originally posted by Bliss:
Originally posted by Aleph:
I love this game, but yeah, alignments do need to be at least weighted in some way that infleuences what you are going for. Maybe pay souls/money to the bonfire or a new tavern guest to guarantee an alignment shop of your choice in the next alignment checkpoint?

I just attempted a warrior hell run and I didn't find any evil events, black market entrances, or evil shops. That's frustrating as hell.
They are weighted. By your choices and alignment. If you found no evil shops, I'm guessing you entered a law shop and bought stuff? That's not a coincidence, if you buy law stuff you're telling the game you want law stuff so it says "hey, don't spawn as much good or evil stuff, this guy wants law stuff". If you found an extremely rare run where you made perfect choices telling the game you wanted evil and it refused to give any, well that's super rare.

That's just an assumption at this point, rather give the benefit of the doubt. They most likely just don't know about Gun Dealer giving -1, and didn't get evil the first rotation perhaps. I feel most things have already been talked about long enough now
Dlanor Jan 18, 2024 @ 9:12am 
Originally posted by Rezyn:
That's just an assumption at this point, rather give the benefit of the doubt. They most likely just don't know about Gun Dealer giving -1, and didn't get evil the first rotation perhaps. I feel most things have already been talked about long enough now
I did try to give the benefit of the doubt, my last sentence is saying if they made no mistakes then they just got a super rare unlucky run. Maybe that's the case, but I have a feeling the kind of person getting 1 super rare unlucky run is the kind that knows it's very rare to truly be locked out due to luck.
HeraldOfOpera Jan 18, 2024 @ 10:04am 
Originally posted by Bliss:
Originally posted by Aleph:
I love this game, but yeah, alignments do need to be at least weighted in some way that infleuences what you are going for. Maybe pay souls/money to the bonfire or a new tavern guest to guarantee an alignment shop of your choice in the next alignment checkpoint?

I just attempted a warrior hell run and I didn't find any evil events, black market entrances, or evil shops. That's frustrating as hell.
They are weighted. By your choices and alignment. If you found no evil shops, I'm guessing you entered a law shop and bought stuff? That's not a coincidence, if you buy law stuff you're telling the game you want law stuff so it says "hey, don't spawn as much good or evil stuff, this guy wants law stuff". If you found an extremely rare run where you made perfect choices telling the game you wanted evil and it refused to give any, well that's super rare.
Again, Deprived specifically has the issue that it has an innate evil point and needs to go to the lawful throne. It has a hard enough time dealing with its terrible starting equipment, lowered base health and double-edged innate ability.
pi73r Jan 18, 2024 @ 10:12am 
Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:
Originally posted by Bliss:
They are weighted. By your choices and alignment. If you found no evil shops, I'm guessing you entered a law shop and bought stuff? That's not a coincidence, if you buy law stuff you're telling the game you want law stuff so it says "hey, don't spawn as much good or evil stuff, this guy wants law stuff". If you found an extremely rare run where you made perfect choices telling the game you wanted evil and it refused to give any, well that's super rare.
Again, Deprived specifically has the issue that it has an innate evil point and needs to go to the lawful throne. It has a hard enough time dealing with its terrible starting equipment, lowered base health and double-edged innate ability.
I did it on my 1st try with deprived no problem. Skill issue
Dlanor Jan 18, 2024 @ 10:16am 
Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:
Again, Deprived specifically has the issue that it has an innate evil point and needs to go to the lawful throne. It has a hard enough time dealing with its terrible starting equipment, lowered base health and double-edged innate ability.
The issue is not with the game but with your lack of understanding. Evil and Lawful are not opposites and do not take away from each other directly. If you really want to maximize your odds of Law shops, on top of buying Dice at the tavern to go from 0 to 1 Law, you can buy a single cheap thing from the Dryad or Priest at the tavern and now you're at 0 good/evil alignment. You can even use mastery to guarantee the Priest will spawn for your Esper unlock run.
Last edited by Dlanor; Jan 18, 2024 @ 10:20am
[R-K] WARLORD Jan 18, 2024 @ 4:49pm 
Originally posted by Rezyn:
Originally posted by Aleph:
I love this game, but yeah, alignments do need to be at least weighted in some way that infleuences what you are going for. Maybe pay souls/money to the bonfire or a new tavern guest to guarantee an alignment shop of your choice in the next alignment checkpoint?

I just attempted a warrior hell run and I didn't find any evil events, black market entrances, or evil shops. That's frustrating as hell.

In these cases you need to force the Illegal Gunpart NPC for -1 to get going, as after that it's weighted and can play accordingly.

But yeah, sometimes you can get unfortunate with no cellars or black market in tavern if playing a neutral class, so it CAN fail.

This is all exluding just the regular odds of Evil Shops though

Youre literally admitting the system can brick. Its bad. Theres no reason for a system where you have to "buy X amount of items to progress a run". Theres no skill involved. Its needless RNG that forces you to spend resources on mostly useless items. Still in this entire thread no one can list a single positive of this system.

Why dont you make it so it costs 20 gold to progress a floor while we are at it. You can always get 20 gold per floor, or you can use the pawn shops or other systems to get gold. AND you can stockpile gold to make sure you can keep progressing floors in case you get "baD RnG" and cant find much later. Its a skill issue if you cant figure out how to get 20 gold per floor.
Last edited by [R-K] WARLORD; Jan 18, 2024 @ 4:50pm
drexciya Jan 18, 2024 @ 6:36pm 
Originally posted by Bliss:
Not every game is for every person. If chess is too complex for you, that's not a problem with chess, it's a problem with you. Stick to checkers instead of saying chess is too complex of a game.

Tiny Rogues is like 4/10 complex at best, it's really not the game's fault if thinking "I want to go the good path, so I should enter the room labelled good shop and buy things" is too much for you to enjoy the game.

For specific advice to add to the thread, if you're trying to unlock characters it's completely on you if you're not using the -1 alignment threshold mastery perk. You should also be using ones like reduced shop prices so you can buy more. You should probably use the dice starter gift too, the golden dice means you can buy 2 or 3 and then reroll to buy up to 3 more. It's not the game stopping you from getting unlocks ASAP, it's you.
Chess is immaculately designed. Tiny Rogues is not. The issue isn't merely with complexity, but convoluted complexity that is lacking in purpose. I also wouldn't classify chess as a particularly complex game. The base rules are relatively simple and elegant. The strategies that have developed organically over time are what make it complex. That's what makes it timeless.

I'm certain that the majority of the people taking issue with Tiny Rogues' implementation of mechanics/systems enjoy plenty of other complex games. You're assuming that everyone critiquing the current iteration of the game only plays Cookie Clicker or something. But I guess you have to make that assumption in order for your childish "if you don't like it's because you can't handle it" thing to make any sort of sense.

I'd also challenge you to name any comparable games that are higher on your 10 point complexity scale. But then you might find that all or most of the people who don't like Tiny Rogues version of complexity actually love those games because, again, the issue isn't just complexity in and of itself, but the implementation of complexity.

You have to ask the more difficult questions like, why does this system feel complex to players? Instead of just going "It doesn't bother me personally so that means it's good and I have to defend it". That feedback has no value, both to other players and to the developers who wish to understand how players feel about specific parts of their game.
Last edited by drexciya; Jan 18, 2024 @ 7:12pm
fromage_enrage Jan 18, 2024 @ 10:27pm 
Well, to be fair, Cookie Clicker CAN get pretty complex.
pi73r Jan 18, 2024 @ 11:32pm 
Originally posted by drexciya:
Originally posted by Bliss:
Not every game is for every person. If chess is too complex for you, that's not a problem with chess, it's a problem with you. Stick to checkers instead of saying chess is too complex of a game.

Tiny Rogues is like 4/10 complex at best, it's really not the game's fault if thinking "I want to go the good path, so I should enter the room labelled good shop and buy things" is too much for you to enjoy the game.

For specific advice to add to the thread, if you're trying to unlock characters it's completely on you if you're not using the -1 alignment threshold mastery perk. You should also be using ones like reduced shop prices so you can buy more. You should probably use the dice starter gift too, the golden dice means you can buy 2 or 3 and then reroll to buy up to 3 more. It's not the game stopping you from getting unlocks ASAP, it's you.
Chess is immaculately designed. Tiny Rogues is not. The issue isn't merely with complexity, but convoluted complexity that is lacking in purpose. I also wouldn't classify chess as a particularly complex game. The base rules are relatively simple and elegant. The strategies that have developed organically over time are what make it complex. That's what makes it timeless.

I'm certain that the majority of the people taking issue with Tiny Rogues' implementation of mechanics/systems enjoy plenty of other complex games. You're assuming that everyone critiquing the current iteration of the game only plays Cookie Clicker or something. But I guess you have to make that assumption in order for your childish "if you don't like it's because you can't handle it" thing to make any sort of sense.

I'd also challenge you to name any comparable games that are higher on your 10 point complexity scale. But then you might find that all or most of the people who don't like Tiny Rogues version of complexity actually love those games because, again, the issue isn't just complexity in and of itself, but the implementation of complexity.

You have to ask the more difficult questions like, why does this system feel complex to players? Instead of just going "It doesn't bother me personally so that means it's good and I have to defend it". That feedback has no value, both to other players and to the developers who wish to understand how players feel about specific parts of their game.
But 80% players are simply horrible at games (pareto rule) so it's not like those answers would have any meaning in actual discussion.
Dlanor Jan 19, 2024 @ 4:13am 
Originally posted by drexciya:
I'm certain that the majority of the people taking issue with Tiny Rogues' implementation of mechanics/systems enjoy plenty of other complex games. You're assuming that everyone critiquing the current iteration of the game only plays Cookie Clicker or something. But I guess you have to make that assumption in order for your childish "if you don't like it's because you can't handle it" thing to make any sort of sense.
You can say Chess is "immaculately designed" but that doesn't stop the reality that many people don't play it because it requires thought and skill and you can't blame luck when you lose. If someone thinks alignment in Tiny Rogues is too complex it's absolutely a problem with them and not the game, it's literally as simple as getting a counter to +3 or +4 using easily defined point gains.

Originally posted by drexciya:
I'd also challenge you to name any comparable games that are higher on your 10 point complexity scale. But then you might find that all or most of the people who don't like Tiny Rogues version of complexity actually love those games because, again, the issue isn't just complexity in and of itself, but the implementation of complexity.
"All or most" people love Tiny Rogues too, it has roughly 97% positive reviews on Steam and a large playerbase for a solo dev indie game. I very much doubt anyone that thinks Alignment is too much is going to be lining up to play actually complex games.

I'm assuming by "Comparable" you mean other twinstick roguelike action games, in which case most of them aren't as complex. The popular ones like Isaac often get played by people cheating at them, using mods to remove the vague aspects or complex aspects, and people google how to do things like unlock the tainted characters. I still wouldn't call Isaac as mechanically complex as tiny rogues because it doesn't typically ask the player to think or manage anything more complex than key/bomb/coin, there's no inventory management or weight management and the "alignment" in Isaac is just picking up a single item you're guaranteed to see from a choice of 2. You play that game by stacking up buffs and the most complex it gets is the alt path asking you to do a few specific tasks, or playing specific characters that the community complains about for being complex. If by "Comparable" you just mean more complex games, here you go:

Steel Batallion requires a dedicated controller with something like 40 buttons on top of dials and switches and pedals. Even learning the controls is more effort than remembering on Heaven runs to visit the good shop and memorizing all the ways to maximize your odds. If you die because you fail to eject when asked, your save file is wiped, and the game has no mercy on people unwilling to learn and improve from mistakes.

There's La-Mulana, which is complex in that it actually demands the player take notes and do high level thinking across the entire game map to solve puzzles if they're not cheating. It's a simple looking game that many people have played but very few can fully beat without looking up solutions online.

Cookie Clicker. Oh, you thought I'd say that game is simple because you just click a cookie? Well you're letting bias blind you, it's absolutely got more complexity than Tiny Rogues when it comes to mechanics that require thought instead of just reading the text on screen. Someone that thinks alignment is too complex is not going to learn the optimal ways to set up their farming plots, they're probably not going to touch the stock market at all unless they're just guessing at it, they're not going to have the patience to get all of the achievements which actually has an impact since achievements fuel your multipliers in Cookie Clicker. The kind of player that thinks Alignment in Tiny Rogues is too complex is the kind of player that will think Wrinklers are enemies and pop them on sight forever.

If you're telling me the people that think alignment is too complex would be willing to truly learn Steel Batallion or Cookie Clicker La-Mulana without cheats, you're just wrong. Those are all games in the "it's not for everyone" group, not every game has to exist for the lowest common denominator that want only the simplest mechanics and least amount of player thought.
Last edited by Dlanor; Jan 19, 2024 @ 4:20am
HeraldOfOpera Jan 19, 2024 @ 7:53am 
I can confirm that on top of all your other glorification of ignorance, you have severely underestimated Cookie Clicker. On top of all the other things people have mentioned there's the unintuitive way mana works. Simply clicking the cookie won't get you anywhere.
goobie snoobert Jan 19, 2024 @ 11:54am 
Originally posted by Bliss:
Not every game is for every person. If chess is too complex for you, that's not a problem with chess, it's a problem with you. Stick to checkers instead of saying chess is too complex of a game.
lmao. imagine defending pointless RNG checks by trying to pass them off as "complexity"
Last edited by goobie snoobert; Jan 19, 2024 @ 11:54am
Dollop of Mayo Jan 19, 2024 @ 12:25pm 
from what I had understood, the dev doesn't mess with the steam forums, but like, only a dev sock puppet would be so completely invested in defending the game, warts and all, right

To put in my two cents I'm not a huge fan of alignment in TR, in D&D it's there to give a general idea of how somebody will act, rather than a transactional system prone to extreme changes without something big going down

it's also weird that a "Good" aligned player would want to invade Heaven. Wouldn't they want to destroy evil instead?

From what I can gather of what many of the bosses are saying, your character, regardless of an arbitrary number, is not a good person. They're just mindlessly rampaging through the dungeon in pursuit of power. Your best friend is a sapient bonfire who obviously cares nothing for you beyond the souls you can feed to it.
Last edited by Dollop of Mayo; Jan 19, 2024 @ 12:30pm
Dlanor Jan 19, 2024 @ 12:57pm 
Originally posted by goobie snoobert:
lmao. imagine defending pointless RNG checks by trying to pass them off as "complexity"
There's a clear point to them and if you think they are RNG checks that's because you have a skill issue.


Originally posted by 76561198009318105:
from what I had understood, the dev doesn't mess with the steam forums, but like, only a dev sock puppet would be so completely invested in defending the game, warts and all, right

To put in my two cents I'm not a huge fan of alignment in TR, in D&D it's there to give a general idea of how somebody will act, rather than a transactional system prone to extreme changes without something big going down

it's also weird that a "Good" aligned player would want to invade Heaven. Wouldn't they want to destroy evil instead?

From what I can gather of what many of the bosses are saying, your character, regardless of an arbitrary number, is not a good person. They're just mindlessly rampaging through the dungeon in pursuit of power. Your best friend is a sapient bonfire who obviously cares nothing for you beyond the souls you can feed to it.
It's weird how so many other people here obsess over the identities of forum users. It's impossible for you to imagine that someone... enjoys the game and actually understands the game design choices? The idea that only the dev could like the choices the dev made on purpose is just funny.

It's not that only good characters want to get into heaven. It's that only good characters qualify to enter heaven. Even if you don't know religious mythology this is directly explained in plain text when you reach the gates. Your character's goals are slightly vague but you're sent by the fire to conquer death, with there being multiple ways to do that. It just so happens that someone trying to conquer death can be good aligned and decide that toppling heaven to rule it themselves has the ends justify the means. The alignment system here is simple but if it was true to hardcore RPGs the people that already think it's too complex would have their heads explode.
< >
Showing 31-45 of 240 comments
Per page: 1530 50