Cinder 16 is boring

[sfsdfd]

I've put about 80 hours into Tiny Rogues so far. I've won every achievement except for Cinder 16.

I've decided to stop pursuing it for one reason: It's boring.

With Cinder 16, your starting weapon is cursed; your first buff is actually a curse; and you get cursed at the end of every level. Plus, you start out with very little health, so it's important to play very conservatively, which usually means sniping from long distance. Also, all of the bosses are extra-buffed with both minions and enchantments, *and* they take half damage for the first minute *of each phase.*

As a result of those factors, you're forced to remain severely underleveled for at least the first five levels - your weapons do little damage and you have little health - while the battlefield is an explosion of hazards. So you have to run around and play defense while tanking these absurd bullet-sponge bosses... and while taking an absolute minimum of damage... for a solid 5+ minutes each. (And whether or not you can overcome that hurdle depends entirely on whether or not you're gifted with an uncursed and overspecced weapon, or whether you're stuck with vendor trash. In my last run, the best weapon I was offered through Level 5 was a minibee, which does like 60 damage plus poison. Terrible.)

It's boring and not fun to have to hit a boss 100+ times over the course of two phases.

And it's boring and not fun to work hard to reach a boss, fight well and hard for a solid five minutes, and then suffer defeat because of one mistake (or just have the bad luck of a no-win situation, where half the room becomes hazardous at once). This mechanic reduces the challenge level to "how long can you tread water?" - i.e., it's not about playing skillfully, but playing as conservatively as possible to minimize mistakes over a very long period of time.

I enjoy challenging games where the difficulty level is high but fair, and victory does not require a combination of rote, mechanical endurance and blind luck. Cinder 16 isn't cutting it.

This mode needs some re-work.

[Fool]

Breezed through the other Cinders but 16 was a pain, and really it came down to absolute pure luck. Everyone I've talked to, and finally myself has had great success with the Kugelblitz Wand, it's just a matter of finding the damn thing in a run. Once you pick that up, clearing rooms is a null point almost, bosses melt with enough Int pumped. I got close in a few other runs making it to death but not past, for my scrubby self to clear that tier I can't think of another weapon that cuts it, and I hate that it is that way, but most of the other weapons don't fare as well the deeper you get.

I took bombs on every run, the kool-aid robot that burst into random rooms, and the two robots each boss has with them just melt to bomb damage making those encounters much easier to manage. A well placed dash and bomb at the start of a boss encounter kills both in one swoop and press of a button.

Always re-rolled the first cursed trait to get the one that offers you only 2 traits per level, seemed the best choice, paid off more often than not just from not having the drawbacks the others gave. I was taking the Sorc for most of my runs but the clear finally played out on cleric, the health per floor healing and some armor near the end was a god send.

Would always pick up an antidote potion to carry along too if I found them in a shop or potion room on the off chance one of the rooms before the boss was just poison room and could just cure after clearing, would happen quite a bit.

I agree to an extent, there were a lot of moments on cinder 16 I was just not having fun, bosses getting defense enchants comes to mind as a massive eye roll and me making myself comfortable because I know this fight is going to take a stupid amount of time, would sometimes have hazards just spawn under my character so forced to take damage there, it goes on and on. That's about all the advice I have from my runs and finally clearing it, I think it took about 10-12 failed attempts before I got mine. Not a humble brag, it was god awful BS and the wand carried entirely for the majority of the run.

[OneNOni]

I'd have to agree overall it tends to be mainly slow play instead of fast action since any one mistake might cost the run. Playing cinder 16 feels more like a chore then fun but super rewarding once you beat it. I'd say its really cause of 4 cinders that it becomes un-fun FAST.

1. Cascading Pain
It might not SEEM major but it adds up if you don't get purging stones or the stat that removes curses (I forgot at the moment). Plus it just adds an extra room which only makes the dull run even longer.

2. On Death's Door
Now the already slow play turns even slower making you watch every-step, the amount of dodges and spacing even more. Being basically dead at the start punishing dumb play. Practically making melee HARDER then it already is.

3. Doomed To Fail
It makes you play even slower due to getting a negative trait at the jump before you even get a good trait which will take 5 more levels once you do get it. If you get a bad set of the first three traits you run might as well be over or you just suffer through bosses.

4. Remote Guardians
Yes bombs counter them amazingly well but if you don't have enough bombs for the run or want to do mega death you have to save them. They add extra projectiles or just get in your way resulting in dumb losses of health. It'd be less annoying if once you killed them they be gone for good and wouldn't respawn back.

The enchants on bosses while sometimes do get very annoying (Proxy shield/ Shield enchants I'm looking at you) I do think they add more of a challenge for people who basically have the boss patterns down and make you have to pay attention a bit. For me personally I'll be playing with only 11 cinders on for quality of life. I may love rougelikes| Rougelites but Fun > Challenge without balance.

[an_gun]

Wholly agreed. There's some parts of cinder 16 that are challenging, interesting, but *most* of the "challenge" is just adding tedium to the process. The number of bosses that spawn with defensive mods on cinder 16 is absurd and not remotely fun.

I quit playing TBoI because that dev insisted on sucking every possible iota of fun out of the game in search of "more difficulty", and tiny rogues going down that same path would be a real disappointment.

[Xuande]

I've got multiple Cinder 16 Mega Death clears, and a Cinder 16/No Blessings clear, been working on a Cinder 16/NB/Mega clear...and I find the current balance fun, and a good way to make otherwise easy content (aka most things that aren't Mega Death) challenging. I've made it to Mega Death under C16/NB a few times, and my run timer is generally around the 45-50 minute mark, so runs don't feel like they're taking too long to me even without metaprogression. And this has been with a variety of weapons - I've never used Kugelblitz Wand or Broken Hero Sword as part of a Cinder 16 clear, nor forced any other specific weapon.

I will say that if anything, the modifiers rolled on the Mega Death fight feel disproportionally impactful - certain disruptive modifiers and/or Shield make the second phase way harder than it would be otherwise. Without a good iframes or durability engine of some kind (which without guaranteed trait rerolls is hard to secure), that singular RNG roll seems to make too much of a difference.

[Rezyn]

To add onto what Xuande said, C16 is the only way to make the game loseable to me aswell. I, unlike him, prefer forcing INT builds (can be good but also detrimental with bad luck) but still manage to win practically any C16 Mega Death run. Really lucky runs are around 20 minutes, where unlucky ones can go up to 50, average landing around 35.

Balance wise it's also what he said, only few combinations of enchantments on some bosses makes a few bosses way harder than they should be, which to some people is fine. To me it is also a bit too harsh of variation aswell.

I was on a win streak of 9 doing C16 Mega Death kills, the hardest current challenge (non self imposed) only losing on my 10th in a row due to absolutely abysmal luck.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2913674070

[sfsdfd]

Originally posted by Rezyn:

C16 is the only way to make the game loseable to me aswell.

I agree that Tiny Rogues should have a mode that is still "loseable" once you git gud, and that most of the game, including lower cinder levels, is generally winnable.

But, of course, there are different ways to make a game challenging at higher levels. Let me suggest two distinct variations:

1) At harder levels, the game requires you to use your skills more effectively and in more effective combinations. The key is not perfection, but adaptability. While fewer mistakes overall are tolerated, it's still possible to win while making occasional mistakes by rallying and doubling down on your skill set. Examples: FTL, Into the Breach, 20 Minutes Till Dawn, and Crypt of the Necrodancer.

Elden Ring was my first From Software game, so I didn't come into it with any skills in soulslike games. Early in the game, I got utterly and repeatedly stomped by Margot; late in the game, I threw about 50 attempts at Malenia before I defeated her. In both cases, the challenge level was significant - but it was clear that the game was playing fairly: it would be possible to win if I learned their patterns, refined my skills and reflexes, and found better tactics. And in both cases, neither of my victories was due to playing perfectly, but just incrementally notching up my abilities until I crossed the finish line.

2) At harder levels, the game ramps up the challenge level and becomes increasingly intolerant of mistakes. You can't really compensate for mistakes with skill; you just have to play as close to perfect as possible. Examples: Tetris, Minesweeper, Flappy Bird.

With Cinder 16, I don't feel inspired to experiment to find more effective choices. I feel like the game just wants me to keep trying again until I have a great streak of luck in weapons, perks, enemy combinations, etc. And I feel increasingly compelled to restrict my gameplay to the most conservative style that will avoid mistakes. That's the problem.

[Ben]

Did anybody try to play without the campfire blessings ? Im currently playing without them (all disabled), and having a ton of fun until Cinder 4, tho I didnt manage to beath Mega Death yet.

I feel like the game is much funnier and balanced this way, because basically half of blessings are overpowered buffs, and the other part is somehow breaking the core of the game (like 3 trait rerolls so you dont mind etheral dices...).

Above Cinder 4 I feel like its just annoying and frustrating debuffs, so I rather prefer playing without them too. And finally I got some fun and challenging games...

What do you think ? Anyone tried ?

[Xuande]

Originally posted by Ben:

Did anybody try to play without the campfire blessings ? Im currently playing without them (all disabled), and having a ton of fun until Cinder 4, tho I didnt manage to beath Mega Death yet.

I feel like the game is much funnier and balanced this way, because basically half of blessings are overpowered buffs, and the other part is somehow breaking the core of the game (like 3 trait rerolls so you dont mind etheral dices...).

Above Cinder 4 I feel like its just annoying and frustrating debuffs, so I rather prefer playing without them too. And finally I got some fun and challenging games...

What do you think ? Anyone tried ?

As I wrote above, I'm doing this (just came off a run with Mega Death at ~30% HP, Composite Bow/dice build a moment ago).

In general I'm much more of a Roguelike than Roguelite fan (per the Berlin definition), vertical metaprogression is a big turn-off and a lot of why I didn't like games such as Hades/Rogue Legacy (1 and 2) over lesser known similar games. Thankfully, Tiny Rogues is not balanced in a way where you're soft forced into that metaprogression.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Xuande:

Originally posted by Ben:

Did anybody try to play without the campfire blessings ? Im currently playing without them (all disabled), and having a ton of fun until Cinder 4, tho I didnt manage to beath Mega Death yet.

I feel like the game is much funnier and balanced this way, because basically half of blessings are overpowered buffs, and the other part is somehow breaking the core of the game (like 3 trait rerolls so you dont mind etheral dices...).

Above Cinder 4 I feel like its just annoying and frustrating debuffs, so I rather prefer playing without them too. And finally I got some fun and challenging games...

What do you think ? Anyone tried ?

As I wrote above, I'm doing this (just came off a run with Mega Death at ~30% HP, Composite Bow/dice build a moment ago).

In general I'm much more of a Roguelike than Roguelite fan (per the Berlin definition), vertical metaprogression is a big turn-off and a lot of why I didn't like games such as Hades/Rogue Legacy (1 and 2) over lesser known similar games. Thankfully, Tiny Rogues is not balanced in a way where you're soft forced into that metaprogression.

Ah sry I missed the "no blessings", thats what you talked about.

Yeah we agree on "roguelike" more than "roguelite", tho I think its fine the way Ruby did. There is progression to encourage beginners or casuals to beat the game, but you can disable all of it and play it like a pure roguelike, or mix progression with Cinders and find your own balance.

Thats why I dont understand some complains on discussions, people are talking about Cinder 16 "too easy" or "boring", but no one mention playing without blessings, so it sounds a bit irrelevant. To me its the first step to think about if you're looking for challenge, before considering cinders.

But maybe what I say is obvious and nobody plays with blessings ?

[OneNOni]

Originally posted by Xuande:

Originally posted by Ben:

Did anybody try to play without the campfire blessings ? Im currently playing without them (all disabled), and having a ton of fun until Cinder 4, tho I didnt manage to beath Mega Death yet.

I feel like the game is much funnier and balanced this way, because basically half of blessings are overpowered buffs, and the other part is somehow breaking the core of the game (like 3 trait rerolls so you dont mind etheral dices...).

Above Cinder 4 I feel like its just annoying and frustrating debuffs, so I rather prefer playing without them too. And finally I got some fun and challenging games...

What do you think ? Anyone tried ?

As I wrote above, I'm doing this (just came off a run with Mega Death at ~30% HP, Composite Bow/dice build a moment ago).

In general I'm much more of a Roguelike than Roguelite fan (per the Berlin definition), vertical metaprogression is a big turn-off and a lot of why I didn't like games such as Hades/Rogue Legacy (1 and 2) over lesser known similar games. Thankfully, Tiny Rogues is not balanced in a way where you're soft forced into that metaprogression.

I completely understand where you're coming from and I think thats what makes tiny rouges a really good game. The ability to play however you want with whatever amount of challenges you want for rougelike or rougelite fans. From reading this I'll try a cinder 16 run without blessings just for the hell of it when I feel like it.

[crh_115]

The cinder system is for making it more difficult. I personally like the extra difficulty and having to be a bit more careful. It gets to be a slog when I don't get any good weapons, but a bit of variance like that is to be expected.

[RubyDev]

I didn't read all the thread but I just wanted to drop in and say that cinder isn't final either. I'll be revisitting and extending the system.

Thanks for the feedback everybody!

[MoistSpookyWater]

Originally posted by RubyDev:

I didn't read all the thread but I just wanted to drop in and say that cinder isn't final either. I'll be revisitting and extending the system.

Thanks for the feedback everybody!

A dev that reads feedback? I have extremely high hopes for this game it already really fun as is

[Ben]

Originally posted by MoistYaourtEau:

Originally posted by RubyDev:

I didn't read all the thread but I just wanted to drop in and say that cinder isn't final either. I'll be revisitting and extending the system.

Thanks for the feedback everybody!

A dev that reads feedback? I have extremely high hopes for this game it already really fun as is

Yeah, this dev is actually the best I've ever seen. Hope his game follow the same path.

[Matti]

i hate cinder 16 , too punishing stuff there, like the trait one, and too much stuff happening at bosses that are way too distracting. isnt so fun. i just wanna do it because of the achievement but i think ill pass the cinder 16 for now, its annoying and boring. and very RNG, based on what you get in the first level 10 rooms and how lucky you are in the second for weaponchoice, it can be either a breeze, or a pain/suredeath .