Kuon is just a better Kaguya

[Signed Picasso]

After playing both. Kag really just feels like a gutted version of Kuon.
Both are described as zoners with unique movement.

Kuon's QCF projectile comes out faster. Kag's QCF B is three frames faster. However, Kuon gets back this 3 frame difference in recovery. He has a beam to anti air as an add-on to the projectile or a standalone option. He can even jump and beam from the air. In a zoning war, Kuon would and in my experience, outright beats Kag. I've won matches just by being a proper zoner with his QCF beams. Not to mention he can get a meterless easily confirmable combo from QCF A>A. Kag's QCF B full screen is bad because the first hit is so high crouch blocking low profiles it. While it can catch people who assault, you can be too late and they can punish you from midscreen. Her QCF B>B serves only as a hit confirm while Kuon's B>B serves as an anti air and is SAFER on block than just B. Her QCF A is not a proper zoning tool. Her normals have a better distance.

Both of their normals are pretty equal. But Kuon does get extra points because of how his command normals all flow well into each other for easy combo damage. Which is my next point. Just for some context. At writing this post initially, I went from Kuon to Kaguya. Now that I went back to Kuon, I have to say she has better normals. The hitbox and double hitting nature catches a lot of people off guard and also covers my big personal weakness of being really bad at hit confirming. But even besides that, just starting with Kag, I've had more success in landing hits.

Kag has trouble breaking into 3k meterless damage. I checked both of their combo trials. Kag has none. I didn't check all of Kuon's because the first expert one I tried hit 3k and I just picked that one to practice. It's off an A. I even googled Kag combos and the two videos I saw did not have meterless 3k. I did follow up on this and check each of their expert combos. While Kuon does have more damage on average, Kag can reach 3k. However, Kuon has more opportunities and combo starters. His cross-up special leads to a 3.5k. Kag has a full-screen dash C combo and a corner grab combo over him. Kuon can get a full-screen combo but from my testing only with meter.

Kaguya's little purple balls vs Kuon's ring. Kuon's ring eats projectiles and takes up a respectable chunk of the screen. Kaguya's tiny balls are only useful now but as soon as people get their timing and trajectory down, people will be stepping all over them. I've already encountered people who will not respect my balls and just hit me when I land.

Kuon has a meterless reversal. Kag does not. And guess what. Kuon can make his METERLESS dp SAFE with meter.

Kuon can get in your face from full screen and has a nice amount of options out of float. Also, T-pose floating does a tremendous amount of psychological damage to the opponent.

The only thing Kag has over Kuon is her force function being an I-frame. I have to double check but just from my experience in matches I can't get a combo off a counter hit. It rewards no combo potential or even high damage off a CH. You have to commit to a CS to capitalize off of a FF i-frame dodge CH. Which is whack. It's also not even a frame one I-frame so you cant use it on wake-up. And guess what else? it is unsafe on block. I'm not talking jab punish. I'm talking Hard C full punish. A very useless if not dangerous low-reward FF.

There's also her dash C being a combo starter from full screen. But good luck landing that because it has a pretty slow startup. It is however, plus on block. I'd say good full screen pressure. But beware, because Kag has no fullscreen mixups, you will just be building their GRD meter.

Edit: Kaguya's 3C>C is GARBAGE. This move is embarrassing because of how safely it can be disrespected by an anti-air. And guess what? Even if they whiff their anti-air, they will still be able to punish me even if I decide to phase dash away because they will land first and still punish me in my own recovery. Her other 2.5 options are okay and situational at best. Which is fine, not every move has to answer 11 different options. One is combo filler sideswitch, while the other is a natuaral frametrap combo ender. Both can be beaten by simply blocking. Which is why her C option being garbage is frustrating. It could have been the pressure extender.

Her charge QCb B is also very useless. It throws the balls behind her and puts her right in front of the enemy. What's the ♥♥♥ point? It's a one way express train to the lose screen.

If you have anything to disprove this I would like to hear it. Cause I'm about to drop her. I'm dropping her (2/22/24). I can tolerate her
1. Low combo damage average
2.No standing overheads
3. Garbage FF.
But I cannot tolerate how bad her supposed (((deceptive))) movement is. I get punished on reaction. When I say reaction. I mean the opponent is legit just standing and even then there is a slight delay to their actions as they realize my ass is on a silver platter as I fall down and the balls aren't a present danger. But that's not even the worst thing. THIS is the worst thing.

I throw balls. Now they are just stand blocking. If I don't phase dash, they will just punish my landing. So I phase dash. But check this out. They can try to do an anti-air attack and hit me. If for whatever reason, they whiff. They still have enough time to punish my landing. The balls present zero danger to those with match-up knowledge. Or worse, those who are morbidly reckless and are willing to take a gamble to find out mid-match. And their brains are rewarded with a shot of dope as they realize the only thing deceptive about Kaguya, is her pressure.

Here is another situation that has happened.
Because her phase dash does not have a hitbox in neutral, I have phased right through them, their anti-misses, and I have been hit ON THEIR OTHER SIDE. Embarrassing.

Both her ball deployment and her phase dash have this no hitbox trait. Why???? Decisions like this make me think they were worried she would be OP. But she is most definitely not.

Kaguya also does not have any good mixups. Now, she doesn't necessarily have to, but if a character has low combo damage and unsafe movement options. She basically fails in the trifecta of balance. Because of how bad balls are, deploying them is not a blockstring option. Because once the opponent has match-up knowledge, they can punish on reaction.

I've played weak-low tier characters. But this feels like playing a lemon.

Originally posted by Nocx:

If you're going to drop Kaguya for Kuon because you want to play a better zoner (Kaguya is not a zoner btw),

Originally posted by Heavymetalmixer:

Kaguya isn't really a zoner, having a fullscreen projectile doesn't make a character a "zoner". Kuon is a dedicated zoner and quite a simple one. Kaguya is a rushdown character with tools for many situations.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3166350042
Both of these posts being wrong only serves to proof my point. There is a huge disconnect between what the devs intended, and their execution. She is so bad at "Keeping opponents at a distance" that not one, but two people boldly claim she is not meant to be able to.

Edit: Here are some suggestions I have.
As I metioned before, her force function is useless. It does not lead to combo damage. It itself does not have good damage. Even though you can delay the follow-up for more i-frames, it still is not a good trade of GRD meter. You don't get extra EXEs or even your GRD back for a successful pling of dodging a move. It doesn't really add any meaningful changes to her gameplan.
What I sort of mentioned was how useless her QCF A rekka is useless. Because her normals have a better hitbox and also lead to combo damage. It also isnt really that much of a good combo ender. The best I can come up with is that the three commands are sort of delayable so you could frame trap. But you could do that with your normals and again, actually get a combo from them. So her QCF rekka is useless + her force function is useless. But how about this, why not allow us to be able to FF in between her rekka commands? It would fix what I said about her QCF B rekka, and how people can just get to you before you do the second command. So it would be cool if you could counter their attack on you. It would still require a buff to her FF to actually be a threat. Wouldn't fix anything. The rekka only serves two purposes. One, make some moves safe on block. And two, about 100 more damage as an ender and sends enemy across the screen.

My next suggestion is for Kaguya's balls. As I said, once people learn that they explode the same way and place everytime. Her ("""pressure""") will be gutted. My suggestion would be to add a following commands to actually change both the timing and place. So for example, QCB B and then either A,B or C for different timings. and then an arrow input, just like her phase dash that changes the velocity of the balls, and thus the location of where the will explode. There will be almost no way the average player will know the location of when and where the balls will explode because now there are 9 different possibilities. And even then they wont be certain because they will only be able to judge based on the velocity, not on the added variable timer.

It would also be great if she could phase dash back or forward instead of just the direction she is facing. Which is backwards when she does foward deployment and vice versa. Her movement is way too linear.

It would be awesome if Kag could deploy her balls from a successful FF dodge. It would be a great option if giving her a CS'less combo is too powerful. But as I stated before, she needs more air schmovement or at least more control over her balls for this to actually be useful.

[Heavymetalmixer]

Kaguya isn't really a zoner, having a fullscreen projectile doesn't make a character a "zoner". Kuon is a dedicated zoner and quite a simple one. Kaguya is a rushdown character with tools for many situations.

[Signed Picasso]

Originally posted by Heavymetalmixer:

Kaguya isn't really a zoner, having a fullscreen projectile doesn't make a character a "zoner". Kuon is a dedicated zoner and quite a simple one. Kaguya is a rushdown character with tools for many situations.

https://youtu.be/8crTTWqksDQ
She is also a tad slower in runspeed. This is something I noticed even before comparing just from playing her.

[Heavymetalmixer]

Originally posted by Signed Picasso:

Originally posted by Heavymetalmixer:

Kaguya isn't really a zoner, having a fullscreen projectile doesn't make a character a "zoner". Kuon is a dedicated zoner and quite a simple one. Kaguya is a rushdown character with tools for many situations.

https://youtu.be/8crTTWqksDQ
She is also a tad slower in runspeed. This is something I noticed even before comparing just from playing her.

Gotta wait for an early balance patch, both are new characters.

[Nocx]

If you're going to drop Kaguya for Kuon because you want to play a better zoner (Kaguya is not a zoner btw), you might as well play another character altogether. Yes, Kuon can zone, but he's really a mid-range with a set oki. If you like that style, you might as well play Londrekia, going by your logic presented here


Londrekia hits a minimum 3.6k off an A starter or B starters, dash B gets 3.9k, and a 22A trap in the corner will convert to 4k...all Meterless, no Vorpal. Kuon doesn't come close to that, and doesn't debuff characters.

The only pure zoners in the game are Hilda, Vatista, and arguably Phonon. All of which should blow up a Kuon trying to spam QCF fireballs. Hilda and Phonon can just hit a button, and Vatista can just sit back, set, build GRD, and beam after, which is way faster.

[Signed Picasso]

Originally posted by Nocx:

If you're going to drop Kaguya for Kuon because you want to play a better zoner (Kaguya is not a zoner btw), you might as well play another character altogether. Yes, Kuon can zone, but he's really a mid-range with a set oki. If you like that style, you might as well play Londrekia, going by your logic presented here


Londrekia hits a minimum 3.6k off an A starter or B starters, dash B gets 3.9k, and a 22A trap in the corner will convert to 4k...all Meterless, no Vorpal. Kuon doesn't come close to that, and doesn't debuff characters.

The only pure zoners in the game are Hilda, Vatista, and arguably Phonon. All of which should blow up a Kuon trying to spam QCF fireballs. Hilda and Phonon can just hit a button, and Vatista can just sit back, set, build GRD, and beam after, which is way faster.

Did you watch the following clip? That is the description the dev's use to describe how these characters play in neutral.

And I don't want to play the ice skating queen.

Yes those three other charactrers are the "pure" zoners in that their gameplan is to keep you away. But there is another type of zoner, like Dizzy from Xrd, who relies on movement to get away. Both Kuon and Kag are legit described as this, by the developer's own descriptions. Bringing up the three pure zoners and the ballerina-♥♥♥♥♥-boy is irrelevant, because they are different archetypes and have different weaknesses/strengths

[Signed Picasso]

Update: I have now decided that Kaguya is a simpler and weaker version of Yuzu. You cannot know where Yuzu will be when she teleports. But Kaguya's movements are anything but "deceptive". Once she throws her balls, she can only go in one direction with variable distance, then mini-hop or land. But the mini-hop directions are meaningless in neutral, because they arent fast enough nor do they cover enough ground to bait out an anti-air. If the opponent is going for an anti-air, he will hit you. And I want to once again, ♥♥♥♥♥ about how predictable Kaguya's balls are. I basically get free GRD meter from ppl who don't know, and full combo punished by others.

[Imōtaru Bureikā]

You're just insist to ♥♥♥♥ on Kaguya, aren't you?

[Heavymetalmixer]

If you don't like her, don't play her. Simple.

[Signed Picasso]

Yes guys, you got me. I did all of this write up for a character I do not like. No where in my writing is there a hint that maybe I want this character to be better.

Just play another character? All characters are just hitboxes, hurtboxes and framedata. Character's and their aesthetic designs are just pointless and interchangeable.

No one addresses my points. Just play a different character. Riveting and poignant discussion.

[Signed Picasso]

I find it kind of funny.
I find it kind of sad.
When I'm getting punished
For a mix I never had.

[Randomperson]

Dude, the game hasn't even been out for a month. People are still figuring things out. Just because Kaguya's strengths aren't as immediately apparent as Tsurugi, Kuon, or the guys we've had for anywhere between 4 and 10 years doesn't mean she's bad.

But by all means, continue ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when other people are trying to cook.

[Signed Picasso]

Originally posted by Randomperson:

Dude, the game hasn't even been out for a month. People are still figuring things out. Just because Kaguya's strengths aren't as immediately apparent as Tsurugi, Kuon, or the guys we've had for anywhere between 4 and 10 years doesn't mean she's bad.

But by all means, continue ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when other people are trying to cook.

Cooking with what? Their first suggestion is to bail out.

[Signed Picasso]

Every new character I try makes me appreciate her normals even more.
The complaints about her ball special and risky air movement are still the same however.

[404_Not_Found]

counterpoint: kaguya is hot

[Signed Picasso]

Originally posted by 404_Not_Found:

counterpoint: kaguya is hot

Kag or Yuz?