Remove the Stun Gun

[Big Ducks Out in Amish]

There's no counter for it and it quite literally prevents you from playing the game.

It would be different if there was some kind of effective counter for this thing, but there isn't.

The loop for the stun gun is this right now: get stunned, stop being able to move to find cover or anything to protect you from the follow-up shots/stabs (because you by forcing you back to your primary, you can't drop a shield or go invisible or anything), and end up getting shot/stabbed to death two seconds later as you flail about in futility.

It even prevents you from ADSing, so when you're forced back to your primary, there's just... No hope at that point. You're not going to equal the damage output needed to beat the TTK of whoever stunned you, so you're dead the second you're stunned.

The Stun Gun is basically a free kill button, and the devs should just remove it entirely. It's unfixable.

[Mister Cebion]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

"Literally" still lets you turn and shoot, and this isn't a 1v1 game. The effective counter is turning around and shooting the Light, along with being near a teammate. You don't need cover, you need to turn around and fire. If your only reaction to getting shot in the back is to run and hide, you need to unlearn that and get more aggressive.

You can totally out-dps and beat the TTK of whoever stunned you as long as you're not using a melee weapon, because the only class with the stun gun has the least HP in the game, and they have to switch back to their primary after getting the stun off.

It's a single-target root. Fire back.

lol... laugh in shotgun who kills you before you even turn arround

[Netsa]

Publicado originalmente por Mister Cebion:

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

You don't need cover, you need to turn around and fire.

lol... laugh in shotgun who kills you before you even turn arround

I laugh in shotgun, too. I've literally killed a DB user with Heavy's shotgun after he fired his first shot but before he was able to fire his second shot. While stunned. I don't need to be able to move for him to die, I'm a Heavy.

[Kimosamie<sAp.]

I hate that it stops you from reviving team mates

[LukanGamer]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

Publicado originalmente por Mister Cebion:

lol... laugh in shotgun who kills you before you even turn arround

I laugh in shotgun, too. I've literally killed a DB user with Heavy's shotgun after he fired his first shot but before he was able to fire his second shot. While stunned. I don't need to be able to move for him to die, I'm a Heavy.

that just means he sucked especially since you said only got off his 1st shot takes .1sec for them to shoot 2x and heavy an hour to turn around (joke on numbers but general idea).

Plus you pointing out fact you had a heavy shotgun, which is ya 1 the best options against them especially if they stay close and slow, what if you had melee or gl or really quite a few of the guns ?

[SaltyWeasel]

Think people forget about the fact its unfun to play against and therefor its a bad game mechanic doesn't matter if its overpowered/under powered or if its easy to counter.
Having a fight full with lights using stealth and stunning you left and right like a bunch of annoying mosquito isn't fun and therefor it should be removed.

[IHaveNoSoul]

R.I.P Melee users

[Red0x_.]

yea ur basically a free kill after the hit.

[Netsa]

Publicado originalmente por LukanGamer:

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

I laugh in shotgun, too. I've literally killed a DB user with Heavy's shotgun after he fired his first shot but before he was able to fire his second shot. While stunned. I don't need to be able to move for him to die, I'm a Heavy.

that just means he sucked especially since you said only got off his 1st shot takes .1sec for them to shoot 2x and heavy an hour to turn around (joke on numbers but general idea).

Plus you pointing out fact you had a heavy shotgun, which is ya 1 the best options against them especially if they stay close and slow, what if you had melee or gl or really quite a few of the guns ?

No, it takes longer than that (and getting tazed doesn't slow down your turn speed). Go into practice and try using the DB yourself, there's a delay between the first and second shots and you can't fire it any faster. The Heavy's shotgun is automatic.

And why would we assume that the Light is using one of his best weapons but the Heavy isn't? Both of these are really common choices, not a lot of people take the sledgehammer seriously in ranked. Now suddenly every single Light is using DB, but most Heavies are running around with grenade launchers and flamethrowers? Even a hip-fired Lewis will do most of the damage to, if not outright kill, the Light after the stun.

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

Think people forget about the fact its unfun to play against and therefor its a bad game mechanic doesn't matter if its overpowered/under powered or if its easy to counter.
Having a fight full with lights using stealth and stunning you left and right like a bunch of annoying mosquito isn't fun and therefor it should be removed.

Is your enjoyment of the game really tanked that hard over the course of just 5 seconds when nothing else happens to you and the person who did it dies instantly?

This "it's not fun to play against" stuff bothers me, since it can be applied to literally anything that kills you every once in a while. Mines (claymores) are unfun to play against, therefore they shouldn't exist. Gas is unfun to play against, too, remove that from the game. Charge Slam and RPG do way too much damage, and Heavy shouldn't be doing any damage. He's got HP, we can destroy his DPS. Goo? Too buggy, delete that. Turrets are skillless autoaiming bots, ban that crap. I got a kill and then someone just instantly revived him, that's totally unfair, what were the devs thinking? Hit backspace. A guy actually tagged me with a regular red barrel from across the map once, no counterplay whatsoever, why are they even here?

Delete everything that I personally deem isn't fun so I can play the perfect game The Finals was always meant to be... Call of Duty.

[SaltyWeasel]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

Publicado originalmente por LukanGamer:

that just means he sucked especially since you said only got off his 1st shot takes .1sec for them to shoot 2x and heavy an hour to turn around (joke on numbers but general idea).

Plus you pointing out fact you had a heavy shotgun, which is ya 1 the best options against them especially if they stay close and slow, what if you had melee or gl or really quite a few of the guns ?

No, it takes longer than that (and getting tazed doesn't slow down your turn speed). Go into practice and try using the DB yourself, there's a delay between the first and second shots and you can't fire it any faster. The Heavy's shotgun is automatic.

And why would we assume that the Light is using one of his best weapons but the Heavy isn't? Both of these are really common choices, not a lot of people take the sledgehammer seriously in ranked. Now suddenly every single Light is using DB, but most Heavies are running around with grenade launchers and flamethrowers? Even a hip-fired Lewis will do most of the damage to, if not outright kill, the Light after the stun.

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

Think people forget about the fact its unfun to play against and therefor its a bad game mechanic doesn't matter if its overpowered/under powered or if its easy to counter.
Having a fight full with lights using stealth and stunning you left and right like a bunch of annoying mosquito isn't fun and therefor it should be removed.

Is your enjoyment of the game really tanked that hard over the course of just 5 seconds when nothing else happens to you and the person who did it dies instantly?

This "it's not fun to play against" stuff bothers me, since it can be applied to literally anything that kills you every once in a while. Mines (claymores) are unfun to play against, therefore they shouldn't exist. Gas is unfun to play against, too, remove that from the game. Charge Slam and RPG do way too much damage, and Heavy shouldn't be doing any damage. He's got HP, we can destroy his DPS. Goo? Too buggy, delete that. Turrets are skillless autoaiming bots, ban that crap. I got a kill and then someone just instantly revived him, that's totally unfair, what were the devs thinking? Hit backspace. A guy actually tagged me with a regular red barrel from across the map once, no counterplay whatsoever, why are they even here?

Delete everything that I personally deem isn't fun so I can play the perfect game The Finals was always meant to be... Call of Duty.

When a mechanic is over used it is over used for a reason, in general people are not going to play the weaker load outs because they want to win.
Lights with invisibility/stun-gun/melee are everywhere therefor it increases the frustration, sure no one likes to die/lose but when in nearly all instances it is because of the same cheap tactics it takes the fun out of the game and should therefor down tuned/removed.

Also having something over tuned forces people to play certain load outs to counter them and therefor you only see the same load out, rocket launcher on a heavy is literally meta to counter lights which in return make light players complain every heavy runs around with a rocket launcher.

[Netsa]

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

When a mechanic is over used it is over used for a reason, in general people are not going to play the weaker load outs because they want to win.
Lights with invisibility/stun-gun/melee are everywhere therefor it increases the frustration, sure no one likes to die/lose but when in nearly all instances it is because of the same cheap tactics it takes the fun out of the game and should therefor down tuned/removed.

Also having something over tuned forces people to play certain load outs to counter them and therefor you only see the same load out, rocket launcher on a heavy is literally meta to counter lights which in return make light players complain every heavy runs around with a rocket launcher.

The answer to something being overused isn't always to nerf it, sometimes it's to buff something else. It's also important to note that Lights with stun guns aren't actually all that common (compared to Heavies with RPGs) and melee is rarely seen on winning teams, especially in ranked. Lights in general are only "everywhere" in low-rank and Bank It because the people there counter them way less often. If you know how to counter it and actually do it, there is no frustration because you're not dying and you're not losing.

Nerfing one of a class's best builds when that class is already in a bad spot, especially just because some people don't think it's fun, isn't justified. That's not balance, that's just erasing that class from the game. At worst, they should get a rework.

And make no mistake, RPG isn't meta just to counter Lights. RPG is meta because it's the best Gadget in the game, hands down. Heavies don't suddenly stop using RPG just because Lights aren't in the match (and yeah, there are games where Lights aren't in the match, aka Ranked). It's a direct, massive damage AoE with extra destruction utility, there's no reason to ever not bring it. It's just like Medium's Defib; every Medium always brings Defib, it's not a choice. Defib isn't meta just to help a team recover from a Light raiding them with a sword, it's meta because it's overpowered IN GENERAL.

[SaltyWeasel]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

When a mechanic is over used it is over used for a reason, in general people are not going to play the weaker load outs because they want to win.
Lights with invisibility/stun-gun/melee are everywhere therefor it increases the frustration, sure no one likes to die/lose but when in nearly all instances it is because of the same cheap tactics it takes the fun out of the game and should therefor down tuned/removed.

Also having something over tuned forces people to play certain load outs to counter them and therefor you only see the same load out, rocket launcher on a heavy is literally meta to counter lights which in return make light players complain every heavy runs around with a rocket launcher.

The answer to something being overused isn't always to nerf it, sometimes it's to buff something else. It's also important to note that Lights with stun guns aren't actually all that common (compared to Heavies with RPGs) and melee is rarely seen on winning teams, especially in ranked. Lights in general are only "everywhere" in low-rank and Bank It because the people there counter them way less often. If you know how to counter it and actually do it, there is no frustration because you're not dying and you're not losing.

Nerfing one of a class's best builds when that class is already in a bad spot, especially just because some people don't think it's fun, isn't justified. That's not balance, that's just erasing that class from the game. At worst, they should get a rework.

And make no mistake, RPG isn't meta just to counter Lights. RPG is meta because it's the best Gadget in the game, hands down. Heavies don't suddenly stop using RPG just because Lights aren't in the match (and yeah, there are games where Lights aren't in the match, aka Ranked). It's a direct, massive damage AoE with extra destruction utility, there's no reason to ever not bring it. It's just like Medium's Defib; every Medium always brings Defib, it's not a choice. Defib isn't meta just to help a team recover from a Light raiding them with a sword, it's meta because it's overpowered IN GENERAL.

It isn't fun because Stun's and movement impairing abilities are never fun in movement shooters, can not remember Quake or Unreal having any stuns/movement impairing abilities.
The issue lays with lights having to low HP pool, but giving them abilities that are frustrating isn't the solution.

[็]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

Publicado originalmente por Critter:

Do you play with a controller? I can see not being able to ADS as quite annoying on controller but MnK players will just swing around and hipfire. I'm guessing this is why some people find it really annoying and others don't

I wouldn't be surprised if this is it. I use a mouse, so I just whip on people. Hip-fire is random, but can be scary accurate sometimes. I've had at least two occasions where I hip-fired an AKM at about 10m and every shot hit perfectly. Meanwhile, when I ADS...

oh my god is this game really like that i think fortnite is sort of like this, you can burst with your AR/SMG at like 50 meters and the game will land some hits for you its crazy and stupid

[Netsa]

I doubt the game really does that, but I guess I haven't tested it.

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

It isn't fun because Stun's and movement impairing abilities are never fun in movement shooters, can not remember Quake or Unreal having any stuns/movement impairing abilities.
The issue lays with lights having to low HP pool, but giving them abilities that are frustrating isn't the solution.

This isn't a movement shooter. Quake and Unreal are filled with instagib kills by people moving at the speed of light, The Finals doesn't have that. It has a little bit of that feeling, but it's only really on Light. They even took out some slide momentum from closed beta (according to a video I saw before).

Feel free to disagree, but this game feels like it's more Team Fortress 2 inspired. All it's missing is engie stations and rocket jumping. Light plays kind of similarly to Scout and Spy, who were/are frustrating to play against in basically all situations, but don't hinder gameplay because they have so many counters. I don't think anyone ever celebrated after getting instantly killed via an invisible facestab, yet TF2 remains popular.

[SaltyWeasel]

Publicado originalmente por Netsa:

I doubt the game really does that, but I guess I haven't tested it.

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

It isn't fun because Stun's and movement impairing abilities are never fun in movement shooters, can not remember Quake or Unreal having any stuns/movement impairing abilities.
The issue lays with lights having to low HP pool, but giving them abilities that are frustrating isn't the solution.

This isn't a movement shooter. Quake and Unreal are filled with instagib kills by people moving at the speed of light, The Finals doesn't have that. It has a little bit of that feeling, but it's only really on Light. They even took out some slide momentum from closed beta (according to a video I saw before).

Feel free to disagree, but this game feels like it's more Team Fortress 2 inspired. All it's missing is engie stations and rocket jumping. Light plays kind of similarly to Scout and Spy, who were/are frustrating to play against in basically all situations, but don't hinder gameplay because they have so many counters. I don't think anyone ever celebrated after getting instantly killed via an invisible facestab, yet TF2 remains popular.

I am not even going to bother, we clearly have differnt opinions and that is fine.
But the matter of the fact is there is a group that dislikes the invinsiablity/Stun so much that if it goes on much longer they will move from the game and find something that suits them better.
The question is how big is this chunk, which only could be messured by a survey and are they willing to lose this chunk of the player base over something as little as an ability.

I can deal with the stun, the thing that triggers my frustration is lights sitting in a corner with their stealth then stun you and just melt your hp away.
Which could easily be solved by making Stun a Q ability if they would do that I wouldn't even mind stun gun having multiple rounds.

[Netsa]

Publicado originalmente por SaltyWeasel:

I am not even going to bother, we clearly have differnt opinions and that is fine.
But the matter of the fact is there is a group that dislikes the invinsiablity/Stun so much that if it goes on much longer they will move from the game and find something that suits them better.
The question is how big is this chunk, which only could be messured by a survey and are they willing to lose this chunk of the player base over something as little as an ability.

I can deal with the stun, the thing that triggers my frustration is lights sitting in a corner with their stealth then stun you and just melt your hp away.
Which could easily be solved by making Stun a Q ability if they would do that I wouldn't even mind stun gun having multiple rounds.

From what I've seen, nearly all of them are Quick Play players. They don't have any interest in learning how to play around something, they just want a casual time with nothing getting in the way. So they encounter stuff like a Light sitting in a corner, something most competitive players figure out how to counter fairly quickly, and decide to uninstall over it.

Frankly, no, you don't balance around those people, they will never be satisfied. It's important to make sure players of all skill levels are having a good time, but in this instance with Lights and Stun Gun, a straight nerf or removal would mean a nerf to a class that's already weak. That's bad. It's also too weak to move it to Special because it's single-target and doesn't help Light's survival in any way.

Something else needs to happen to it, like a sidegrade. Nerf one aspect of it, buff another.