Localizers are still trash, as expected

[retsa2b]

As usual, they're discarding the original dialogue so they can make up new lines. Didn't take long at all to spot examples.

Like when Kasuga is talking to the punk after he got his money back for him, the subs say, "Well, that all depends on you." Whereas what he spoke in Japanese was, "I will of course do my very utmost (to help)."

Looking forward to another RGG game filled with moments where the only defense against their localizing team's penchant for reinventing dialogue is for the player to understand enough Japanese to muscle through that bull----.

[Minolta36]

Originally posted by Splinter of Chaos:

Do you have a source for this? Localization is a really interesting topic for me so I'd like to see the two lines back to back, or at least if someone has transcribed what the original Japanese text said, not just some translation by an unknown author.

Though considering the discussions I've been involved in where translators completely rewrote dialogue... I'm not sure this is even in the ballpark. If someone said "I will do my best to help," then to follow with "the rest depends on you" is a very natural flow; the one kind of implies the other, thus the two statements have fairly similar meanings in my mind.

// its true, i kinda understand japanese and there are alot of examples in LAD 8 (and in older LAD games) where the japanese voice doesnt 100% match the english subs, the meaning of the dialogue stays mostly the same but still the translation of whatever is changed sometimes dramaticaly even.

[Jade]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Originally posted by nobalkain:

While this is not in any way the first Vid to Cover the problem, this is the one that cause the Up Roar.

I get the gist of it. So it isn't about an endemic issue where every fifth line of dialogue flat out discards detail, like in an RGG game, but more like the occasional injection of politics.

Yes that sucks. But at the same time, a handful of changes in a given episode isn't the same thing as being able to find something wrong with the subtitles every single minute. That's the difference I underscore as the problem with RGG's localizers.

For what it's worth, I've spotted the same political shenanigans in the Yakuza series as well. Here, in Yakuza 5, timestamp 46:06:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzcRM3nYPc
Kiryu here says

"If you want to pick up girls, that's up to you. Have at it. || But if you lay a hand on my boss, then you'll have to settle matters with me."

But the subtitles provide:

"I wouldn't mind if you were just out trying to pick up girls. || But threatening them? Assaulting my boss? Well, I can't let that slide."

You see what they did here. They decided for themselves that SEGA's writing wasn't doing it for them, so they changed it. It's the same thing they do every 5th sentence, but obviously this time there's a political angle because why not.

I'm so confused - what is wrong with this translation? He literally assaulted the boss, he PUNCHED THE DUDE - it's assault. "Laying a hand on my boss" and "Assaulting my boss" have the same meaning with the context in mind.

If it's the pickup girls part then idk, he basically said the same thing but phrased it differently, just the same as the the other part of the line.

[nobalkain]

Originally posted by Metal Izanagi:

When will people who complain about this understand that localization is not translation? If you want to directly translate everything go ahead. You think SEGA is just shrugging and letting the English localizers do whatever they want? They're not. They sign off on the changes because they're fine with 'em. Quit crying.

They hire Translators because they TRUST they are going to do their JOB correctly. They dont have the time to Hire ANOTHER Translator to check the first ones. Only by Fans bringing these issues up do they realize their Work is being Changed.

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by TEIN:

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Kiryu here says

"If you want to pick up girls, that's up to you. Have at it. || But if you lay a hand on my boss, then you'll have to settle matters with me."

But the subtitles provide:

"I wouldn't mind if you were just out trying to pick up girls. || But threatening them? Assaulting my boss? Well, I can't let that slide."

I'm so confused - what is wrong with this translation?

I'm going to ignore your aggressive stance (it helps that it was rethought and edited out) and proceed as though you're trying to argue in good faith.

The problem with the localization is that Kiryu DOES NOT SAY "But threatening (girls)?"

Obviously Kiryu is stepping in IN PART because of said behavior, AFTER letting his boss try his hand at it. In the Japanese dialogue, he does not spell this out to the aggressors (or the player) because, presumably, the writers understood or at least felt that it was not necessary—the actions were doing the talking.

SEGA's localizers decided differently. So they rewrote it. And that's not their job.

This needs to be stressed for the umpteenth time: In a better industry where the consumers have demanded a higher standard—to which point I here underscore the anime industry for the millionth time—this would NOT have happened.

[nobalkain]

Originally posted by Splinter of Chaos:

What I don't understand is why people who can understand Japanese well enough to not need the English translations even care. For the people who do need the translations, isn't the most important thing that they are enjoying the game? Does anyone feel like they are unable to enjoy the game due to poor writing or cringe dialogue?

Because we want people to know that the Work has been changed. For a lot of us who Discovered Japanese Entertainment we took it as an Opportunity to learn about their Culture through it. As an Artists its is also Disrespectful to have Work Changed by someone else who decides they need to "Fix" parts they deem "Problematic" because the Localizer decides that Westerners cant "Understand" or are "Above" the Culture they are Localizing.

[✙205🍉🐆→]

Well, it changes the character

[Jade]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Originally posted by TEIN:

I'm so confused - what is wrong with this translation?

I'm going to ignore your aggressive stance (it helps that it was rethought and edited out) and proceed as though you're trying to argue in good faith.

The problem with the localization is that Kiryu DOES NOT SAY "But threatening (girls)?"

Obviously Kiryu is stepping in IN PART because of said behavior, AFTER letting his boss try his hand at it. In the Japanese dialogue, he does not spell this out to the aggressors (or the player) because, presumably, the writers understood or at least felt that it was not necessary—the actions were doing the talking.

SEGA's localizers decided differently. So they rewrote it. And that's not their job.

This needs to be stressed for the umpteenth time: In a better industry where the consumers have demanded a higher standard—to which point I here underscore the anime industry for the millionth time—this would NOT have happened.

I was not trying to come off as aggressive but yea I still don't see the issue - they added context that, while wasn't necessary, didn't take away from the scene or anything. I think perhaps you're being a bit too picky with changes. I don't see how it was politically motivated if - as you said - actions did the talking.

[Thyrandor]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

My dude, do you have a defense for the second specimen? You know. The one where 「無論！男に二はない！」transformed into "Never! ...But I guess I could dial it down a bit, at least around you. You have earned my ninja respect." I can't wait to see you hand-wave how this total dialogue reinvention inadvertently modified the character's persona, what kind of mental gymnastics you find yourself inventing in order to defend the quip about "ninja respect", or how that gigantic line of dialogue remotely equates to what the localizers started with. Surely... it's all down to "nuance and context"...

In the English localization of Judgment, the ninja character is written to be aware of playing a role.
How does he think of himself in the Japanese original?
Is he completely delusional, or is he aware of playing the ninja role as well?

[nobalkain]

Originally posted by TEIN:

Originally posted by retsa2b:

I'm going to ignore your aggressive stance (it helps that it was rethought and edited out) and proceed as though you're trying to argue in good faith.

The problem with the localization is that Kiryu DOES NOT SAY "But threatening (girls)?"

Obviously Kiryu is stepping in IN PART because of said behavior, AFTER letting his boss try his hand at it. In the Japanese dialogue, he does not spell this out to the aggressors (or the player) because, presumably, the writers understood or at least felt that it was not necessary—the actions were doing the talking.

SEGA's localizers decided differently. So they rewrote it. And that's not their job.

This needs to be stressed for the umpteenth time: In a better industry where the consumers have demanded a higher standard—to which point I here underscore the anime industry for the millionth time—this would NOT have happened.

I was not trying to come off as aggressive but yea I still don't see the issue - they added context that, while wasn't necessary, didn't take away from the scene or anything. I think perhaps you're being a bit too picky with changes. I don't see how it was politically motivated if - as you said - actions did the talking.

While I understand your point, it still Changes that are not needed. A lot of time people Defend Localizers who DO decide to make Drastic Changes they try and claim that the Original does not Translate "Properly". Here the Original can be used and IS understandable, and that is what we want.

A Translators Job is to take the Work and Translate it to as close to the Original as Possible within the Language is being Adapted to. They are not to Rewrite the Work of the Original. By giving them the freedom to add things here or there, they will then start to think they can do more then that. There are plenty of examples of Translators who have come out and said they enjoy Antagonizing Fans by Injecting their own Ideal/Agenda into the Stories, and this has gone on for a very long time.

Think of it this way, if you where to Create a Story that was Loved in your Own Country and it was Popular enough to get Translated to another, would you be Happy to find out later that said Translator decided on their own to Rewrite parts of it? Keep in mind this was not something you agreed to and had no clue it was happening until Fans brought it to your Attention.

[Dax_B]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Keep in mind that this is the Japanese language-specific subtitle text:

https://youtu.be/tLKyA33pOUM?t=710
(Timestamp 11:50.)

I'm not sure what was so bad in this example you gave me. All the context of the story was in tact and to the point.

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by TEIN:

I was not trying to come off as aggressive but yea I still don't see the issue - they added context that, while wasn't necessary, didn't take away from the scene or anything.

We agree on something. It's a start. It wasn't necessary. So why do it?

Here are their options:

* Localize the dialogue in a way that's faithful to the original, without changing things needlessly.

* Localize the dialogue in a way that's faithful to the original, but simultaneously put that accuracy at risk by making changes to what people are actually saying.

You are the type of person who would happily take either option. But imagine for a moment that there are folks out there who strongly prefer that no needless changes to the dialogue are made. What, then, is your beef? Is it with said people? If it truly doesn't matter, to you, which type of localization we get, then how about the first option? It isn't asking much and I have proof: the entire damn anime industry.

Originally posted by TEIN:

I think perhaps you're being a bit too picky with changes.

Being picky is something I reserve for cases where an effort is close enough to perfection that a few nitpicks could really work out some wrinkles. What I am, in this case, is crushingly frustrated with a perpetual, endemic issue that will only ever be addressed when SEGA is made aware that their user base is getting pi--ed off about it. Maybe you haven't seen the other examples of poor RGG localizing in this thread, but I dare you to suggest that being outraged at those examples is "too picky".

[Катюша]

Thanks, I'll stick with the Japanese version. Localisations are generally appalling.

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by Thyrandor:

Originally posted by retsa2b:

My dude, do you have a defense for the second specimen? You know. The one where 「無論！男に二はない！」transformed into "Never! ...But I guess I could dial it down a bit, at least around you. You have earned my ninja respect." I can't wait to see you hand-wave how this total dialogue reinvention inadvertently modified the character's persona, what kind of mental gymnastics you find yourself inventing in order to defend the quip about "ninja respect", or how that gigantic line of dialogue remotely equates to what the localizers started with. Surely... it's all down to "nuance and context"...

In the English localization of Judgment, the ninja character is written to be aware of playing a role.
How does he think of himself in the Japanese original?
Is he completely delusional, or is he aware of playing the ninja role as well?

This is a point I've made in other threads about this. In the Japanese dialogue—and indeed in every other scrap of English dialogue, including in Lost Judgment—he plays his persona 100% straight. As far as the player can tell, he believes he's a ninja and doesn't even consider his behavior unusual.

So yeah, it was nice of RGG's localizers to toss that persona into the dumpster so they could make a little throwaway gag about him "toning down" his personality. We never see him break character again because it was a one-off gag developed spontaneously on the whim of the localizer. Who knows? Maybe in their mind, even "You have earned my ninja respect" was somehow funny enough to be worth conjuring dialogue from thin air.

Let me add that Yagami's first line in that exchange was a snafu of the same nature: It changed his personality. While he's clearly irritated at having to deal with this ninja fanatic, his dialogue is flat and non-interjected. And yet in the localized script, he decides to punctuate his question with an undisguised expletive, highlighting his irritation. Just more liberties taken by the localizers.

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by Dax_B:

I'm not sure what was so bad in this example you gave me. All the context of the story was in tact and to the point.

You might want to read earlier in the thread for an elaboration on that. The TL;DR is that if you think it's kosher to localize "arigatou" as "You make me proud to be a mother", then the only thing I can say is: Welcome to the RGG localizing team; prepare to be replaced with AI that doesn't do this.

[nobalkain]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Originally posted by Dax_B:

I'm not sure what was so bad in this example you gave me. All the context of the story was in tact and to the point.

You might want to read earlier in the thread for an elaboration on that. The TL;DR is that if you think it's kosher to localize "arigatou" as "You make me proud to be a mother", then the only thing I can say is: Welcome to the RGG localizing team; prepare to be replaced with AI that doesn't do this.

Yup, this is why a lot of Frustrated Fans are not to sympathetic to Localizers being replaced by AI. Is this something we want, no, but its better then having the Work Co-opted by another without their Consent.

We have been asking them for Decades to stop doing this, but not only do they refuse to listen to us, they boast about doing it. They dug their own grave at this point.