Armor and Health Chipping

[ForSaikeN]

Hi ArchBladers,

Just wanted to have a little disscussion with the peoples from here on something I think should be thought about I played a bunch of games and I really start to get the feel of things but there are still some stuff I think could be improved.

One of these things is how you can damage someone through their whole armor AND health even if the person is blocking. I know we don't want to promote blocking behaviors but I think that is why we have block breaking moves. I think it should be changed because it makes no sense to me that you can get low hp and try to survive but if you try to block through a ♥♥♥♥ jump R or a renoah L it just shred your bars to pieces and you will die blocking or not. I understand that it could chip your armor but I don't see the point of it chipping health.
To me it shouldn't go through your hp if you're blocking. You should be able to try to move block to dodge some stuff like ♥♥♥♥'s JR or renoah's L to try to get in range to hit them.

So what do you think about this people? Do you think it makes sense to have attacks tear your armor AND health when you block or you think
it should be different? Let me know your opinion, I'm quite curious of hearing what you guys have to say ^^

[Emonium]

It would force a more ranged oriented character to be forced into melee. Melee should only be an option for a ranged character when the opponent actually does make it close enough imo

[ForSaikeN]

I don't know, I see your point but I think it makes no sense anyhow. In my opinion, it would just force you to use guard breaking abilities and play as a team. To me if I play Renoah I shouldn't be 1v1ing ppls because I'm a squishy range character. So in my head my job would be to run to my teammates and keep supporting them from a far. Also, I think it would add a disadvantage to ppl just spamming abilities like ♥♥♥♥'s jump R, Cezanne's jump R, etc. Like if you just want to jump around doing that then you also face the fact that the opponent can block it. Because in theory, it means that if a ♥♥♥♥/Cezanne/Renoah player was skilled enough to dodge every attacks from his opponent, he could still kill someone that blocked every of his blows just because health gets chipped no matter if you blocked or not.

It's just that when I think about it, I find weird that you fight a couple times drop all your armor, you're half hp, you do a great job fighting some1(blocking melee atks or ranged) and dying during a block. To me if a person is much better than another and outblocks him it's "dumb" to die just because you have no more hp to sustain a hit that you actually blocked but instead die d because you fought multiple fights beforehand.

[SinisterSlay]

I suggested this earlier. I was met with the usual complaints about how it would unbalance things, etc.
All I learned is people in this game are remarkably inflexible and lazy, preferring quick kills with the least amount of effort. And preferring not to change anything in the game.

[ForSaikeN]

I understand it can be annoying of suggesting stuff and having this kind of response but I think it's useless of generalizing and saying they're all inflexible and lazy and such. It's just our job to keep arguing and find a way to make them think out of their box :P

Anyhow, thanks for approving my idea Sinister :D

[SinisterSlay]

Oprindeligt skrevet af ForSaikeN:

I understand it can be annoying of suggesting stuff and having this kind of response but I think it's useless of generalizing and saying they're all inflexible and lazy and such. It's just our job to keep arguing and find a way to make them think out of their box :P

Anyhow, thanks for approving my idea Sinister :D

Just wait until you see how many complaints you get.

Personally, I'd rather they took the old Rakion approach where you could get chipped, but would never die if you blocked. You would sit at 1 hit point, dying at the next unblocked attack. Or in this games case, a small adaptation, you would die if hit by a guard break.

[ForSaikeN]

That would be a good compromise Sinister. Would be nice if it worked that way =/ Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

[Potatim]

I'd agree with Sinister's suggestion. You shouldn't die from blocked hits, but should die from guard break hits or DOTs.(Poison/Fire) I couldn't agree with getting rid of chipping all together.

[Rinera]

I don't know...
The game is advertised as an adaption of fighting games in a 3d world that you can use Y as well to move. In newest fighting games you see characters losing a part of their health when they block which not only seems rather logical, but it prevents block spaming nubcakes from appearing since they can't do that. In other words, that kind of mechanic creates the illusion that the combat feels faster, since you can't just stay in a corner and block just by pressing E.
If there was 1 ability that I would agree that should be blockable (with the current mechanics) or dodgeable, that would be Renoah's *hit them all* rifle thing... If, for example, a Renny is not full on everything(armour, health), 2 of those can kill her. Also, in Renoah's case, I think that she would become underpowered if her L did not go through block. She does not have that many dodge abilities and you can actually avoid her hits quite easily(Depending on your hero), yet she dies fast and has a moderate reload speed which gives you loads of openings to hit her. Also, her jump L is blockable and in general does not do much damage.
D*ck's R. Well... I admit that it's kind of annoying but it doesn't do insane damage and you can actually block a part of it.
Generally, the game does not seem to need drastic changes like "full block", only a few fixes here and there.

[Lunaroh]

I'd just like to point out (just in case anyone hasn't noticed) that some characters take less chipping damage than others. ♥♥♥♥'s J.R does 0 damage to a blocking Sewon or Dan Mei, for example.
Chipping damage is a way to prevent constant blocking from dulling the gameplay. It's also used as a character balance parameter (since each character mitigates different amounts of damage while blocking).

Then again, a "you can't die while blocking" mechanic does sound like it's worth a try.

[Aegis Vult]

Bizarrely, Renoah's clipping wasn't added until the game reached OB so it never used to be an issue. However, as you said, with some so based on ranged attacks, if you could just sit and block against her, it would be far too easy. I like to think of it as it forces other characters to engage her in melee or die. It can be annoying, but I see its place.

[Biologically AWPtimized]

In my opinion, a truly skillful game allows a player to overcome large groups of people by being better than them while still making sure that a group of coordinated/skilled players will still be able to beat him. This means a player has to have a way of living forever with enough skill, and killing people really quickly - with enough skill. A game centered around "chipping" to me promotes a situation where the number of players more than skill affects the outcome. Also, making block breakers the only way to get someone out of block would make it very RPS feeling and also would make block very powerful.

[SinisterSlay]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Vulden:

In my opinion, a truly skillful game allows a player to overcome large groups of people by being better than them while still making sure that a group of coordinated/skilled players will still be able to beat him. This means a player has to have a way of living forever with enough skill, and killing people really quickly - with enough skill. A game centered around "chipping" to me promotes a situation where the number of players more than skill affects the outcome. Also, making block breakers the only way to get someone out of block would make it very RPS feeling and also would make block very powerful.

Thats why the chip to 1 point works well. You can wail on someone in a corner, but they can't escape because one hit and they die. One guard break and they die.

It would also work with the sniper hit all attack, as long as your blocking you won't die, but you will have 1 hit point and will die if a chicken lands on you.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iUNFhR3LaLI#t=469s

[Claymore]

this argument doesnt make sense. there always has to be chip damage. that is the penalty for blocking, losing HP, the plus to blocking is that you gain the frame advantage after blocking the entire string correctly, then you come out ahead in frames. the discussion of whether or not blocking should do chip damage is just silly dude. name 1 fighting game where you can just block with no penalty? i bet that game you just named either died along time ago or doesnt exist.

[Robotkin]

Yet, I believe that's the point of having a guard breaking ability. It's there to stop someone from blocking. But it is counter productive if you have a guard breaking ability but can kill someone blocking off of chipping. In the game I mentionned, there was an archer (pure range like Renoah) and people could block most arrows. Yet the skilled players were able to hit between blocks, knew to back off get ppl off of her and come back to help their teammate and stuff. They just knew their class drawbacks and built on them. Because you have to use a different gameplay to succeed doesn't mean your character suck or that the chipping system has it's place.

@Rinera: In current fighting games, you have blocks that are all breakable through either guard breaking attacks or zone blocks like high, mid, low attacks and you have to just change your attacks to go through block. But, as I recall you are right I think in SSF4 you could kill someone that just didn't have enough hp to block anymore, but in that game the guard breaking attack takes like 2 seconds to charge so you would be at a disadvantage if the guy is just sitting there and block spamming waiting for you to use it.

@Lunaroh: They take "different" chip damage because every character has different armor/hit point. A Tiac/Valle would seem to take less chip dmg because they have overall more hp/armor compared to Renny.

@B.B Hoodrat: I stated it already that the game I talked about died but I also stated why it did. In that game, you could chip through your armor, but you couldn't chip through health and to go through a character blocking you would use an guard breaking ability. And it's not dead because in that game you also had stats like in an rpg so every lvl you would get 3 pts to invest in increasing, health, armor, range dmg, basic attack, special atk, atk speed, move speed and such and all had a max of 50. But then on top of the 3 per lvl they starting making stats available to ppl paying cash. So you could pay money for additional stats. So we ended up with characters with 10 times more stats than a regular max lvl person so it was completely unfair. And then they even made armors/weapons that were stronger than the normal weapon available only to ppl using real cash. And that game was the same as ArcheBlade, an "arena" pvp action game with Team Deathmatch, FFA, and a more PvE type of PvP like NetherDale.


Any other thoughts?

[Emonium]

Yeah Rakion's pretty dead.