KickStarter - An Old-School 1st Person RPG by Brenda Brathwaite and Tom Hall!

[OneFortyFour]

Hope I am not breaking any rules or anything but just thought I would give the Grimrock fans an opportunity to help kick this KickStarter so we can get a Wizardry inspired game by the developers that brought your Wizardry 8 and Anachronox, it will be an Old School RPG is a classic first-person, fantasy/sci-fi RPG brought to you by award-winning veterans. Create 4 characters and explore!

Link http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lootdrop/an-old-school-rpg-by-brenda-brathwaite-and-tom-hal

[igortroy]

nice idea, but isn't a million $ too much to ask? and they want it just to start the project off the general-idea phase, and upto 3 million $ for feature completeness.
the Legend Of Grimrock guys did this good old-school dungeon-crawler with roughly as much as Brenda and Tom raised already (about 200k), and a team half that size.
and they said they won't need fancy cut-scenes, cinematic quick-time events, celebrity voice actors and all the other needlessly expensive crap plaging the AAA games of today.

they also said absolutely nothing about it being free, so I assume it isn't.

to me it looks like an attempt to abuse Kickstarter's purpose and Tom&Brenda reputation more than anything else. a money-grab.

[OneFortyFour]

@igortroy, Grimrock was very basic, no story, no character development, just a straight up dungeon crawler, which is fun for what it is but with this KickStarter project they are aiming for a Wizardry 8 sort of game.

[igortroy]

kean_144 の投稿を引用：

@igortroy, Grimrock was very basic, no story, no character development, just a straight up dungeon crawler, which is fun for what it is but with this KickStarter project they are aiming for a Wizardry 8 sort of game.

@kean maybe I'm wrong, but to me that looks like they want to risk nothing in case the project gets cancelled or produces a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ game.
that's not how it works and they both know it.
it doesn't look like they did something so far, beyond assembling a team and having a general idea.
they want a million dollar profit BEFORE they actually start doing anything, just because they are Tom and Brenda, and not some anonymous group of developers like Almost Human were while working on Legend Of Grimrock.

Kickstarter is about raising the bare minimum cash to get something underway, or missing cash to get something finished.
when that "bare minimum" stands at ONE MILLION DOLLARS (read in Dr.Evil accent) - it smells like a ripoff.

if they said they needed $100k to get started, then provided some basic lore, concept art or early code - I would have given them my money and support.

[OneFortyFour]

Only 3 days in, time will tell how badly they want to make the game, luckily for us if they dont get the $1 million, we dont spend a cent, just saying wait and see if your interested.

[Aristar]

Project Eternity by Obsidian had a $1million goal too, and has $2.4million funded so far. So why would this be any different? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

[Jaggid Edje]

@LeetMiniWheat, Well said. I was going to say the same thing if no one else had done so already.
It's also worth noting that a few other games on kickstarter have raised even more. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure?ref=card <-- raised 3.3 million dollars, and http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 raised just shy of 3 million dollars.
Those three all show that a kickstarter project backed by industry veterans can easily raise over a million if their idea is sound.
Simple point of fact is that high quality video games do take millions to make. Normally that money is provided by publishers or independant investors (or both). With Kickstarter developers have the ability to go straight to the customers. And, as the video for old school rpg explains, that is really the only good way to get funding these days for the types of games that investors/publishers consider too risky...such as old school rpg's.

I have funded all 3 of the above projects as well as the thread topic one. And about a dozen others.

[igortroy]

Jaggid Edje の投稿を引用：

@LeetMiniWheat, Well said. I was going to say the same thing if no one else had done so already.
It's also worth noting that a few other games on kickstarter have raised even more. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure?ref=card <-- raised 3.3 million dollars, and http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 raised just shy of 3 million dollars.
Those three all show that a kickstarter project backed by industry veterans can easily raise over a million if their idea is sound.
Simple point of fact is that high quality video games do take millions to make. Normally that money is provided by publishers or independant investors (or both). With Kickstarter developers have the ability to go straight to the customers. And, as the video for old school rpg explains, that is really the only good way to get funding these days for the types of games that investors/publishers consider too risky...such as old school rpg's.

I have funded all 3 of the above projects as well as the thread topic one. And about a dozen others.

so what you're saying basically, is you are exactly the kind of person these people hope for.
one, for whom it's enough to hear "Tom Hall" or "old-school RPG" to start throwing money in all directions.
well I'm not. with all due respect to Tom and Brenda, and despite playing and loving some of the game they were involved in - I'm not buying anything until I see some work in progress or an idea more solid than "hey, let's make an RPG!".
even if God himself opens a Kickstarter project saying he wants to make a game, I'd say "well then, show me some pre-alpha code or concept art".

EDIT: and I'm aware that it costs millions of $$$ to make a good game, but there's always an element of risk. investing millions makes sure you - as a developer - will do everything to make sure everything in the game turns out just right.
when you have a million dollar "cushion" before you even get started, there's no motivation to do so. you can release a complete crap and still be at a profit.

[Aristar]

igortroy の投稿を引用：

I'm not buying anything until I see some work in progress or an idea more solid than "hey, let's make an RPG!".
even if God himself opens a Kickstarter project saying he wants to make a game, I'd say "well then, show me some pre-alpha code or concept art".

It's called brand loyalty, which is probably old school these days. You see some good reputable developers that you know they can make some nice stuff, and you have faith in them. Epecially since these are the kinds of games they WANT to make. These veterans could probably get a job anywhere making some boring modern money-maker but they want to truly make a piece of art for us (yes I consider some video games an art), so they're asking us to help get it started so they're not hand-tied by publishers. Of course I'd like to see some work in progress too, but that costs money to start development.

It's always a risk to invest in something, but it's only $15. Publishers risk millions. Either way they have to answer to someone (to the publisher or to the customers, and in this case they'd rather answer to us) so there's nothing cushiony about that. We also get a say in the development process along the way, with publishers you don't have that - the publisher always has the final say. I'd trust the fans and developers more than the money greedy publishers (like EA). We need a little more risk these days, IMO. Without risk there's no gain (or innovation). I'd rather not settle for mediocrity which publishers seem content with (again, EA a perfect example).

But with that said... it's your money, spend it how you see fit. Money talks, and if games aren't being funded on kickstarter than there's little market for it. Personally I'd rather get the game for a great price at $15 (after 2 years though), have a say in the development, and feel good about supporting the developer so they don't have to be hand tied by publishers.

[igortroy]

LeetMiniWheat の投稿を引用：

It's called brand loyalty, which is probably old school these days. You see some good reputable developers that you know they can make some nice stuff, and you have faith in them. Epecially since these are the kinds of games they WANT to make. These veterans could probably get a job anywhere making some boring modern money-maker but they want to truly make a piece of art for us (yes I consider some video games an art), so they're asking us to help get it started so they're not hand-tied by publishers. Of course I'd like to see some work in progress too, but that costs money to start development.

P.S. damn youngers, get off my lawn!

haha, well I'm no younger. and I already said I played and liked many of the games Tom and Brenda helped create.
still, no job in a money-making game giant would give them a million $ salary. certainly not in advance before they even started doing something.
these people probably have at least some initial cash to get work started. what your "brand loyality" does is actually give them an excuse to *NOT* put in 100%, since it's not their money they are risking.
small Indie companies - just like these guys were years ago - probably put their homes at the bank's mercy, to get the initial cash needed to make a game. 100% risk = 100% motivation to succeed.
that's why some of them make games BETTER than money-making AAA titles. Runic's Torchlight for instance.
"brand loyality" is bad. you need to be loyal to the game, not the last names of the people who created it.

[Aristar]

Sorry I edited my post a few times after you quoted it (and removed the lawn part),

You thikn that $1million is going into their pockets? It's going into development. 2 years of salaries for their entire development team, and talented developers don't work for cheap . They'd be getting the funding either way from the publisher or us, so I don't see the difference.

And I suppose brand loyalty truly is dead these days, /sigh.

[igortroy]

@Leet that's exactly my point: the publisher is a heartless bastard just like me :)
he'll say "show me what you did so far, and I'll decide if I give you a million bucks or not".
and investors are exactly the same.

brand loyality isn't dead. look at Apple. it's the reason half of their products suck.
brand loyality is bad.
you are giving them the chance to make a crap game using *your* money, then say "well, even we are not perfect...", instead of forcing them to put their hearts into it becuase it's *their* money going into development.

[Aristar]

igortroy の投稿を引用：

@Leet that's exactly my point: the publisher is a heartless bastard just like me :)
he'll say "show me what you did so far, and I'll decide if I give you a million bucks or not".
and investors are exactly the same.

brand loyality isn't dead. look at Apple. it's the reason half of their products suck.
brand loyality is bad.
you are giving them the chance to make a crap game using *your* money, then say "well, even we are not perfect...", instead of forcing them to put their hearts into it becuase it's *their* money going into development.

So you're saying only rich people should be able to make games? I sure as hell don't have $1million laying around to start making a game. As I said before, their development team they hired doesn't work for cheap, plus the Unity engine they're using costs money too. But I agree they do need to show some work in progress especially since there's so many other great kickstarter projects around this time too.

[OneFortyFour]

Interesting points however I miss Wizardry too much and Grimrock is no Wizardry, for those that are still interested update 4 has just popped up http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lootdrop/an-old-school-rpg-by-brenda-brathwaite-and-tom-hal/posts with a promiss for a massive update to come during the week.

[DariusOne]

The biggest problem I have with some of these kickstarter projects is that I can´t be sure if these people can still make good games. It is pretty clear that Double Fine and Obsidian still have every capability to make excellent, high quality games as they have been for the past years. With others, like this particular kickstarter, I don´t see anything to say that they can even make a good game anymore. Wasteland 2 is a similar case, and I am rather eagerly waiting to see how that turns out.