Golden Lag Hook discussion

[[COxMA] Altripp]

i'd like to hear what all of you guys think about the hook dodge detection being calculated by the PC of the one who uses the hook, and not the one dodging the hook.

My opinion is that, although not unfair - because all players involved have the same advantages/disadvantages - it FEELS unfair and frustrating. Dodging a hook and then suddenly realizing that you have not actually dodged it - despite the fact that you were ducking when it hit you - makes it feel frustrating and seems to lack a solid counterplay. Yeah, you can somewhat couterplay it, by trying to read your oponent to predict when he is gonna use the hook, but really, that is not solid counterplay at all. When designing a multiplayer game, the mechanics should be fun to use against your oponents and also should be fun when they are being used against you. If the dodging mechanic were to be made solid by changing which user's PC calculates the final result of the hook, the game would feel so much smoother and, even though you would have the problem that your screen display might show someone getting hit by the hook when it actually does not happen, i feel it'd be, in general, SO much more satisfying than it is now.

What you guys think about that?

[MoeFox[GER]]

Agreed!

[[COxMA] Altripp]

I'd really like to hear other players opinion about that, and also, if possible, the developers opinion too. You guys agree? Disagree?

[Gert-Jan Stolk]

So this is kind of a complex situation.

By moving the dodge decision to the defender we'll be causing another problem. In that case the attacker would shoot a hook, the hook would attach to another player but it would not pull the player back until that player confirmed he didn't dodge it. And if the player would dodge it it would look like the hook is attached for a while, than the player suddenly slides causing the hook to detach.

So basically now it sometimes feels a bit unfair to the defender. By making the change you propose it would move that problem to the attacker and it would not feel fair to him.

Having said that we could do a revision of the hook at some point in the future to see if we can make the hook experience a bit better for both sides. We may have a few more subtle tricks up our sleeves to make it more fair.

[[COxMA] Altripp]

Well, i get it that with lag and the way that the hook is suposed to work, either way would cause a 'graphical desync'. But my point is that, even though if it looked like the hook hit when it didn't, we would know that it was actually a fair chance that the defender had to dodge the hook, and knowing that, it wouldn't feel unfair. It wouldn't feel like the item is unavoidable, it would only feel like a graphical desync instead of feeling like a core problem with the game mechanics.

As it stands now, we have even invisible hooks sometimes (if on the atacker screen the hook made it but in the defender screen it looked intercepted), and trying to dodge a hook is nearly impossible with high ping. If things were the other way around (that is, dodge confirmation beeing sent by the defender's client), people with high ping would have the same chance to dodge a hook that they would have if they were playing locally.

My point is that, even though the graphical desync would be transfered from the defender to the atacker, it would feel, overall, much better, more fair and less frustrating, because it would give the defender a chance to dodge while causing only a graphical desync on the atackers client.

But either way, changing the hook or keeping it the same, thanks for hearing me out. It's very good to have the devs in touch with the community, willing to hear sugestions to improve the game experience. You guys are awesome

[Taters McShit]

replace the hook with a fishing rod which takes a second to start reeling in to make the delay you would get from the attackers side make sense?

[[COxMA] Altripp]

Bump

Devs, so you dont intend in doing anything about that? This simple golden hook thing is ruining the entire game for me - this change would only make the game better, MUCH better. Lag hooks, invisible hooks, all of this, makes me wanna quit the game from time to time. I just explained above (and over a month ago) why this change makes sense and would make the game feel better. Could you please revisit that? Thanks

[Taters McShit]

Originally posted by Aldrigg:

Bump

Devs, so you dont intend in doing anything about that? This simple golden hook thing is ruining the entire game for me - this change would only make the game better, MUCH better. Lag hooks, invisible hooks, all of this, makes me wanna quit the game from time to time. I just explained above (and over a month ago) why this change makes sense and would make the game feel better. Could you please revisit that? Thanks

its not thaaaaat bad

[TH_Oliphant]

The invisible hooks are that bad. It completely eliminates any form of counter play cause you can't even see the play.
The dodging can be a bit tricky at all times. There are cases where you are already sliding before any hook gets shot and it still grabs cause of lag, sometimes with instant wins or losses following. The biggest problem is the inconsistency though. If it would be just imposible to dodge at short range and not dependent on internet connection I would already feel more comfortable, since it will be equal for everyone.

And Gert-Jan Stolk, you said "And if the player would dodge it it would look like the hook is attached for a while, than the player suddenly slides causing the hook to detach."
But I've seen this happen already to some extend where the hook attaches and starts pulling and half a second later it gets dodged still. This might be due to the way the info of the other players is conveyed though.

Glad to hear you are thinking about it though, keep up to good work

[[COxMA] Altripp]

Originally posted by Taters McShit:

its not thaaaaat bad

Well, you may not feel that disturbed by this, but for me its unbearable. For many times i just stopped my playing session because of lag hooks. It may not be the case to you, but it sometimes prevents me from having a fun game at all.

[Reso]

Originally posted by Gert-Jan Stolk:

So basically now it sometimes feels a bit unfair to the defender. By making the change you propose it would move that problem to the attacker and it would not feel fair to him.

I would rather have it feeling fair for defender. Many times I have dodged hook and moved on and suddenly still get pulled back. I have seen people sliding during the entire time hook is visible in the air and still they get grappled back.

[Taters McShit]

Originally posted by Aldrigg:

Originally posted by Taters McShit:

its not thaaaaat bad

Well, you may not feel that disturbed by this, but for me its unbearable. For many times i just stopped my playing session because of lag hooks. It may not be the case to you, but it sometimes prevents me from having a fun game at all.

they can't do that much about people having ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ping to each other, it happens in all multiplayer games, FPS's for example getting shot around a corner when you feel you ran around it already

[[COxMA] Altripp]

Originally posted by Taters McShit:

they can't do that much about people having ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ping to each other, it happens in all multiplayer games, FPS's for example getting shot around a corner when you feel you ran around it already

Ok, that is right, but FPS's and Speedrunners are very different games with very different mechanics and should be treated as such. You are not suposed to see a bullet coming and then dodge it in an FPS, you are supposed to either be at cover or kill your oponent before he kills you. Im not saying that getting shot around a corner is a normal thing and should happen, no, it feels bad. The thing is, if the hit detection on an FPS was calculated on the client of the one being shot, there would be no shot that would hit a target whatsoever with a ping higher than, say, 80 or 100, the game wouldn't work. You are not supposed to be able to dodge bullets. You are supposed to be able to dodge a golden hook.

And yes, they can 'do that much about people having ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ping to each other', because, as i said, it would only make the game better. Having a way to counter an item is something that should happen in this game.

[Taters McShit]

Originally posted by Aldrigg:

Originally posted by Taters McShit:

they can't do that much about people having ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ping to each other, it happens in all multiplayer games, FPS's for example getting shot around a corner when you feel you ran around it already

Ok, that is right, but FPS's and Speedrunners are very different games with very different mechanics and should be treated as such. You are not suposed to see a bullet coming and then dodge it in an FPS, you are supposed to either be at cover or kill your oponent before he kills you. Im not saying that getting shot around a corner is a normal thing and should happen, no, it feels bad. The thing is, if the hit detection on an FPS was calculated on the client of the one being shot, there would be no shot that would hit a target whatsoever with a ping higher than, say, 80 or 100, the game wouldn't work. You are not supposed to be able to dodge bullets. You are supposed to be able to dodge a golden hook.

And yes, they can 'do that much about people having ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ping to each other', because, as i said, it would only make the game better. Having a way to counter an item is something that should happen in this game.

understand what you're trying to say better now

[Shievo]

This is a weird discussion. Let's say they changed it to the defender. The mid-high current players will be happy... or... the people who knows how the hook works would be happy since it makes more sense that way.
On the other hand new/low tier players would just think the game got more buggy from that update and that it's impossible to hook people at some points, even though they can clearly see that he didn't dodge it.

It would lower the gameplay value for low tier players but higher it for higher tier players. It makes more sense gameplay wise to move it to the defender, and i totally agree with that. I get super frustrated too. Yesterday i had a match in Gfinity where me and my opponent were living so far from eachother that i would see the hook waaaay after he actually shot it, and i wouldn't be able to dodge it. But if we want new players to join the game, we have to let the hook stay as it is for now and pick up the topic when the game is more popular. That is my opinion.

[Shievo]

Actually scratch that... it feels just as buggy right now as if you changed it.... please change it.