Any reason to take chances over 100%?

[King Smidgens]

Crit rate, Burn chance, etc.
Any benefit to going over 100%?

Is there a 5% chance for a "double crit" at 105% crit for instance?

Multicast can chain many more times than I would assume based on the number, so I was curious if there was a reason to take any other stat higher.

[XenoJiiva]

any of the status effects (the 20% to apply burn etc) dont stack their chances but stay at 20% it just increases how many stacks of burn you apply.
so if you have 20% to apply burn you have a 20% chance to apply 5 stacks of burn.

[Zelph]

Originally posted by XenoJiiva:

any of the status effects (the 20% to apply burn etc) dont stack their chances but stay at 20% it just increases how many stacks of burn you apply.
so if you have 20% to apply burn you have a 20% chance to apply 5 stacks of burn.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it 20% per card for a stack. So 20% * 5 chances to apply the singular burn(or 5 burns in case of everything procs?)

[Heinrich]

Crit chance though? any point to upping that past 100? I know there's a rune that converts crit chance to crit damage and that'd make there be a point to it, but I mean is there a point to it by default? can you super crit or anything?

[Zerea]

Originally posted by XenoJiiva:

any of the status effects (the 20% to apply burn etc) dont stack their chances but stay at 20% it just increases how many stacks of burn you apply.
so if you have 20% to apply burn you have a 20% chance to apply 5 stacks of burn.

Originally posted by Zelph:

Originally posted by XenoJiiva:

any of the status effects (the 20% to apply burn etc) dont stack their chances but stay at 20% it just increases how many stacks of burn you apply.
so if you have 20% to apply burn you have a 20% chance to apply 5 stacks of burn.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it 20% per card for a stack. So 20% * 5 chances to apply the singular burn(or 5 burns in case of everything procs?)

̶H̶i̶l̶a̶r̶i̶o̶u̶s̶l̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶g̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶s̶o̶e̶v̶e̶r̶.̶ ̶I̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶l̶a̶t̶ ̶2̶0̶%̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶r̶a̶n̶k̶s̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶.̶

Zelph is correct. See below comment.

Originally posted by Heinrich:

Crit chance though? any point to upping that past 100? I know there's a rune that converts crit chance to crit damage and that'd make there be a point to it, but I mean is there a point to it by default? can you super crit or anything?

Nope you've pretty much got it right. Besides the small amount of extra crit damage if you take Critical Mastery, it is completely pointless.

[Kotli]

XenoJive is correct at lest based on my testing as I always seen multiple of the number of debuff upgrades I have on a mob.

IE I have 3 burn with no other source of burn I only ever see burn stacks of 3, 6, 9 etc. I never see 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8 etc stacks.

As for how much damage it does per stack I have no idea how to test.

[Zerea]

Originally posted by Kotli:

XenoJive is correct at lest based on my testing as I always seen multiple of the number of debuff upgrades I have on a mob.

IE I have 3 burn with no other source of burn I only ever see burn stacks of 3, 6, 9 etc. I never see 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8 etc stacks.

As for how much damage it does per stack I have no idea how to test.

I actually think on further testing that Zelph is correct here. Each upgrade has X% chance to inflict a burn stack up to the maximum per hit based on how many you have. 3 Burn cards means each attack hit has a 25% chance to inflict a burn and it's rolled three times, giving you anywhere between 0-3 burn stacks at once. I cannot replicate your findings of them only going up in 2s,3s, etc... I was receiving anywhere from 1:Number of Burn Upgrades, based on exactly one attack hitting the monster with 3 Burn upgrades.

So getting more Burn Upgrades does in fact speed up Burn application as well as total burn damage... but it's still a very weak effect overall since it has no exponential scaling like Doom does.

[Zelph]

Originally posted by Zerea:

Originally posted by Kotli:

XenoJive is correct at lest based on my testing as I always seen multiple of the number of debuff upgrades I have on a mob.

IE I have 3 burn with no other source of burn I only ever see burn stacks of 3, 6, 9 etc. I never see 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8 etc stacks.

As for how much damage it does per stack I have no idea how to test.

I actually think on further testing that Zelph is correct here. Each upgrade has X% chance to inflict a burn stack up to the maximum per hit based on how many you have. 3 Burn cards means each attack hit has a 25% chance to inflict a burn and it's rolled three times, giving you anywhere between 0-3 burn stacks at once. I cannot replicate your findings of them only going up in 2s,3s, etc... I was receiving anywhere from 1:Number of Burn Upgrades, based on exactly one attack hitting the monster with 3 Burn upgrades.

So getting more Burn Upgrades does in fact speed up Burn application as well as total burn damage... but it's still a very weak effect overall since it has no exponential scaling like Doom does.

I tried a heavy burn build the other day. I was indeed very disappointed. Need a lot of multi hits to make most ailments worth more then a little. But if you have the multi hits, they aren't terrible.

[Zerea]

Originally posted by Zelph:

I tried a heavy burn build the other day. I was indeed very disappointed. Need a lot of multi hits to make most ailments worth more then a little. But if you have the multi hits, they aren't terrible.

Yeah getting more multihits/cast freq for faster application is the only way to make it do *anything* measurable. Problem is... that's the exact same way the good debuffs scale as well. Just go Doom and Fragile instead and kill the boss at half HP with 10k Doom stacks...
<.<

[Mr. Dandy]

getting crit chance over 100 is worthless
getting multicast chance over 100 gives a chance to multicast 3 times

[deathblack]

Originally posted by Zelph:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it 20% per card for a stack. So 20% * 5 chances to apply the singular burn(or 5 burns in case of everything procs?)

If you have 1 "spontaneous combustion" it says that you have a 20% chance to apply X damage over 8 seconds, if you have three, it says that you have a 20% chance to apply X3 damage. While I can't guarantee that the wording is correct and you just apply XY damage in 20% of the cases, I want to mention that having them applied separately would make them a bit OP. Now imagine that you have a Flurry and 5 stacks of spontaneous combustion, every instance of flurry is then rolled 5 times to apply a x5 damage burn 20% of the times.

Sure, until we get a clarification that "this is how it actually works", we can only speculate, but to me 20 instances to apply 20x damage with 10/25% chance each sound way more powerful than applying the same 20x damage 10/25% per every instance of damage dealt.

Crit - no reason to go over 100%.
Multistrike - stacks at least up to 8 instances in a row (with diminishing returns), go crazy!

[King Smidgens]

The other traits will display the proper value: Crit, for instance, If you have 2 +5%, it'll be updated to read +10%.

That's something I never noticed and while it really feels like the % chances to apply burns etc stack to 100% it gets very hard to tell.

[Zerea]

Originally posted by deathblack:

Originally posted by Zelph:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it 20% per card for a stack. So 20% * 5 chances to apply the singular burn(or 5 burns in case of everything procs?)

If you have 1 "spontaneous combustion" it says that you have a 20% chance to apply X damage over 8 seconds, if you have three, it says that you have a 20% chance to apply X3 damage. While I can't guarantee that the wording is correct and you just apply XY damage in 20% of the cases, I want to mention that having them applied separately would make them a bit OP. Now imagine that you have a Flurry and 5 stacks of spontaneous combustion, every instance of flurry is then rolled 5 times to apply a x5 damage burn 20% of the times.

Sure, until we get a clarification that "this is how it actually works", we can only speculate, but to me 20 instances to apply 20x damage with 10/25% chance each sound way more powerful than applying the same 20x damage 10/25% per every instance of damage dealt.

Crit - no reason to go over 100%.
Multistrike - stacks at least up to 8 instances in a row (with diminishing returns), go crazy!

I thoroughly tested this in-game with an ability that hit semi-frequently exactly one time each time.

First off, the upgrade does not update its text to say "20% chance to apply 1/2/3/4 etc.." debuffs. The only thing that changes is the damage value. This leads people to believe it's a flat 20% chance at all levels to inflict 1 debuff of growing power.

After testing it thanks to Zelph's suggestion, I realized this was not the case. Every subsequent upgrade give you an additional 20% chance to inflict a burn off the same hit.

If you hit once you roll two 20% rolls. None of them can succeed and you apply no stacks, 1 may succeed and you apply 1 stack, or both may succeed and you stack twice. Keep in mind this is off exactly ONE hit of damage. In no amount of testing did the burn stacks ever increment in exact values. They NEVER went up in exactly 2, or 3, or 4, or 5. It was always between 0 and the number of upgrades I had.

I realized that it's not "5 chances to stack 5 times each", it's also not "1 chance to stack 5 times". It's "5 separate chances of applying 1 stack per chance". In addition, the damage of each stack does increase as well. So not only does application rate increase, damage increases as well with the same upgrade.

This sounds amazing on paper, until you realize it still doesn't make a difference and Burn builds scale terribly even with this 'double scaling'. Doom, for instance. has this exact same property, except Doom by design scales exponentially with itself, whereas Burns only scale linearly (and it's a rather low linear scaling at that).

Therefore you are correct that skills like Flurry with Multicast apply debuffs very quickly, which is why it's a top pick for debuff spam builds. It's strong, but it's not "20% for 25 stacks per tick" levels of broken

[deathblack]

Originally posted by Zerea:

First off, the upgrade does not update its text to say "20% chance to apply 1/2/3/4 etc.." debuffs. The only thing that changes is the damage value. This leads people to believe it's a flat 20% chance at all levels to inflict 1 debuff of growing power.

It sure doesn't upgrade the text but I'm not entirely sure the last statement is correct.

Originally posted by Zerea:

I thoroughly tested this in-game with an ability that hit semi-frequently exactly one time each time.

I did not test it thoroughly but just some rather short testing shows that any time I applied Doom it was always multiples of 2 when I had 2 points in doom or multiples of 3 when I had 3, so I either didn't apply anything or applied 3 stacks at a time, only seeing 3/6/9/12/15/18 stacks on a target. After that the synergies from applying other effects ended my testing.
So what I assume the text is saying is that it applies X stacks that deals (damage of one stack)*X damage.

I know this is being argued over and over whether 10 spontaneous combustions just have 25% chance to apply 10 stacks at once or 10 separate chances to apply 1 stack (which would be much better) but so far I'm convinced that it's the former.

[Zerea]

Originally posted by deathblack:

Originally posted by Zerea:

First off, the upgrade does not update its text to say "20% chance to apply 1/2/3/4 etc.." debuffs. The only thing that changes is the damage value. This leads people to believe it's a flat 20% chance at all levels to inflict 1 debuff of growing power.

It sure doesn't upgrade the text but I'm not entirely sure the last statement is correct.

Originally posted by Zerea:

I thoroughly tested this in-game with an ability that hit semi-frequently exactly one time each time.

I did not test it thoroughly but just some rather short testing shows that any time I applied Doom it was always multiples of 2 when I had 2 points in doom or multiples of 3 when I had 3, so I either didn't apply anything or applied 3 stacks at a time, only seeing 3/6/9/12/15/18 stacks on a target. After that the synergies from applying other effects ended my testing.
So what I assume the text is saying is that it applies X stacks that deals (damage of one stack)*X damage.

I know this is being argued over and over whether 10 spontaneous combustions just have 25% chance to apply 10 stacks at once or 10 separate chances to apply 1 stack (which would be much better) but so far I'm convinced that it's the former.

I stand corrected for the second time. I realize now I had a variable in my initial experiment I thought didn't affect the outcome but in fact did.

Debuffs (At least Burn, Poison, Doom, Dazed for sure) increment in exactly the number of upgrades you have. However, what isn't clear is if the updated text means each individual burn stack gets its damage increased or if it's simply summing the total number of stacks you apply per hit. I can't think of a decent way to test this, but if it's the latter it would actually help explain why those debuffs scale horrifically bad. Even the former doesn't help the scaling *that* much.

Each upgrade of burn gives you a whopping 87 extra damage dealt over 8 seconds...... Wow. An upgrade for 11 damage a second, where DPS of a skill is measured in the multiple thousands if not tens of thousands at the end of a run, where upgrades are limited to ~55-60 per stage........

Holy crap they need help.

[King Smidgens]

One thing to keep in mind is that a Critical hit will apply double the amount of debuffs. So At a baseline, generally, you're going to see 1 become a 2 5% of the time due to a crit.

It could be that the game applies TWO stacks 20% of the time (if you have two upgrades) which would explain the tooltip updating to reflect the increase in damage. Since it's two stacks, it's twice the damage.

More stacks = more scaling on things that scale based on stacks.