***Spoiler*** Could someone explain something to me?

[TheBlueCrow]

Could someone explain the rationale behind why Dr. Watts would think Dr. Rosalene would delete River? If the star gazing moment between Jonh and River had never occured then John would not have the desire to go to the moon at all, right? That would be counterproductive to their goal. I don't understand why that scenario was given to the player as a red herring when it doesn't make logistical sense. When I got to that part I didn't think Rosalene's seemingly abrupt behavior added drama and excitement, I just thought 'This rings false. Couldn't you two fight over something that makes more sense?'

What did I miss?

My only gripe with the story is the decision to have Rosalene keep her plan of moving River from Watts. Wouldn't it be simpler for Rosalene to tell Watts what she was going to do instead of going rogue and setting up obstacles for him? I understand that the player was intentionally kept in the dark to add drama and tension, but Rosalene's illogical behavior just removed me from the moment instead. Rosalene did allude that she wasn't just going to delete River but that she was going to move her as well, but it wasn't an earnest and legitimate presentation on Rosalene's part. Her dialogue was intentionally nebulous so to not tip off too much to the player. Her insistence of 'just have faith in me' was not justified, and thus rang like a blatant, inorganic excuse to withhold information from the player for later gratification. I understand the choice of misdirecting the audience for that part of the game, but I found the the tradeoff of having weak logical foundation of the character's motivation to be particularly glaring since it's such a climatic moment.

Other than that, I enjoyed the story and atmosphere very much.

[Nerevars Goat Univeron]

Because she has reason to. She needs to do her job, and shes dead set on doing so. Even if that means deleting river. The Mission was to LITTERALLY get him to the Moon, and anything they find inside doesnt change that job.

[Frankenstein's Raven]

She didn't 'delete' River, that's what Neil thought she did. She merely moved her during the secondary school period in time. As well as moving River, Eva also stopped Joey from dying. After that there is a heap of wibbly, wobbly stuff that happens, quite a lot of discussion on wether or not he could remember their first meeting.

Because he didn't have River in his life (She was moved), he trained to work at NASA, because he had the goal in his mind to go to the Moon, because they didn't meet eachother, Johnny had a desire to go to the Moon.

I hope that made sense and was what you were asking, if it wasn't, I'm sorry I couldn't be of help.

[Nerevars Goat Univeron]

Originally posted by Egotistical Raven:

She didn't 'delete' River, that's what Neil thought she did. She merely moved her during the secondary school period in time. As well as moving River, Eva also stopped Joey from dying. After that there is a heap of wibbly, wobbly stuff that happens, quite a lot of discussion on wether or not he could remember their first meeting.

Because he didn't have River in his life (She was moved), he trained to work at NASA, because he had the goal in his mind to go to the Moon, because they didn't meet eachother, Johnny had a desire to go to the Moon.

I hope that made sense and was what you were asking, if it wasn't, I'm sorry I couldn't be of help.

He was asking why neil THOUGHT she did, as the OP didnt think it made sense.

[Frankenstein's Raven]

Originally posted by Ciaphas Cain:

Originally posted by Egotistical Raven:

She didn't 'delete' River, that's what Neil thought she did. She merely moved her during the secondary school period in time. As well as moving River, Eva also stopped Joey from dying. After that there is a heap of wibbly, wobbly stuff that happens, quite a lot of discussion on wether or not he could remember their first meeting.

Because he didn't have River in his life (She was moved), he trained to work at NASA, because he had the goal in his mind to go to the Moon, because they didn't meet eachother, Johnny had a desire to go to the Moon.

I hope that made sense and was what you were asking, if it wasn't, I'm sorry I couldn't be of help.

He was asking why neil THOUGHT she did, as the OP didnt think it made sense.

Thanks for clarifying.

[TheBlueCrow]

Originally posted by Ciaphas Cain:

Because she has reason to. She needs to do her job, and shes dead set on doing so. Even if that means deleting river. The Mission was to LITTERALLY get him to the Moon, and anything they find inside doesnt change that job.

After a night's sleep, I think I'm starting to come around to it. I just found it odd that after Watts and Rosalene put in the laborious effort of traveling back and forth through various periods of John's life all the while taking wild guesses of THE moment that triggered his desire to go to the moon with no luck until they got to his stargazing moment with River only to not want to use that piece as pertinent material in fabricating John's trip to the moon. I think I was wrongly equating strong desire to go to the moon = John going to the moon.

Thanks. I don't think I'm quite sold on how Rosaline's resolution for the situation was the most natural, intuitive, or simplest but I'm coming around to it.

[TheBlueCrow]

Originally posted by Egotistical Raven:

Originally posted by Ciaphas Cain:

He was asking why neil THOUGHT she did, as the OP didnt think it made sense.

Thanks for clarifying.

That is correct. Sorry for the confusion.

[Frankenstein's Raven]

Originally posted by TheBlueCrow:

Originally posted by Egotistical Raven:

Thanks for clarifying.

That is correct. Sorry for the confusion.

It's fine, maybe I didn't read it properly. Anyway, I was only trying to help you understand the situation, or whatever caused you confusion, at least Ciaphas Cain could explain it to you, if I failed to.

[Lethe]

TheBlueCrow, I think the source of your confusion is the fact that you've gone too far back regarding Rosalene's assumed manipulation of events. Rosalene never erased John's memory of their first meeting, nor did Watts ever assume that she would, precisely because it is the crucial element to fulfilling John's wish as you've correctly stated. Before Rosalene and Watts took the job, John's memory of the meeting was suppressed due to the trauma he had gone through after his brother's death and the medication that he took to deal with it, which is also why he couldn't explain where the desire to go to the moon stemmed from (because all that was left was the faint memory of the promise itself, but not the context in which it was made).

From Watts' point of view, since River and John eventually did end up together even though he never returned to their promised place, Watts did not deem it necessary to carry out the job, considering that they only promised each other to go to the moon in the event that they'd lose sight of each other. Rosalene, however, took the content of the job literally, favouring the goal of going to the moon no matter the cost over what had really transpired (John and River's reality of living together without the need to carry out the promise).

In order to fulfill that wish, two things were necessary after the stargazing event: 1) John's brother had to survive, because if he didn't, John's memories would fade away again. 2) River had to disappear after their first meeting, because it is only without River in the picture that John would want to go to the moon (i.e. only when they're separated does their promise take shape); that was the crucial part of his motivation that Rosalene and Watts needed and couldn't find in their many blind tries prior to learning of John and River's first meeting. All the jumping was necessary to find that piece of his memory.

The stargazing is not a red herring, but did in fact occur in both scenarios, whether or not John remembers and whether or not River was present in his life later on.

Watts is upset for the same reason that the player may feel upset by the end of the game: Is removing River from most of John's life for the sake of carrying out the client's wish and their promise truly the more desirable path compared to the reality that John and River lived after having found each other at school, especially after you've witnessed everything they've gone through together? In the last stages of John's life, their happiness may have been clouded by the fact that they couldn't bridge the gap that John's missing memories created (with neither of them having been aware of the reason behind it); John was unable to comprehend River's distance and obsession with both the paper rabbits as well as the lighthouse, whereas River was unable to get John to remember their first meeting that was so very important to her no matter how hard she tried. But in the end, it's still the reality they managed to build together, and the River that you, the player, know, is the River from all the real memories, the River who grew up with John - and doesn't the fact that they were able to find each other again in spite of the missing memories have some merit?

Removing River from John's early life comes close to deleting her and is, as explained above, sufficient reason for Watts to react the way he did. Additionally, there was no guarantee that River, in the simulated version of John's life, would actually return even if John achieves his dream of going to the moon, because reintroducing River is not within Rosalene and Watts' capacity. That's why Rosalene asked him to trust her intuition while being unsure of her decision throughout the ordeal, and why the two of them were stunned and touched when "River" did reappear.

(Ugh I'm sorry this got so long; I initially misunderstood what you labeled as a red herring, so I edited my reply with what will hopefully clear up the confusion.)

[TheBlueCrow]

Originally posted by Lethe:

TheBlueCrow, I think the source of your confusion is the fact that you've gone too far back regarding Rosalene's assumed manipulation of events. Rosalene never erased John's memory of their first meeting, nor did Watts ever assume that she would, precisely because it is the crucial element to fulfilling John's wish as you've correctly stated. Before Rosalene and Watts took the job, John's memory of the meeting was suppressed due to the trauma he had gone through after his brother's death and the medication that he took to deal with it, which is also why he couldn't explain where the desire to go to the moon stemmed from (because all that was left was the faint memory of the promise itself, but not the context in which it was made).

From Watts' point of view, since River and John eventually did end up together even though he never returned to their promised place, Watts did not deem it necessary to carry out the job, considering that they only promised each other to go to the moon in the event that they'd lose sight of each other. Rosalene, however, took the content of the job literally, favouring the goal of going to the moon no matter the cost over what had really transpired (John and River's reality of living together without the need to carry out the promise).

In order to fulfill that wish, two things were necessary after the stargazing event: 1) John's brother had to survive, because if he didn't, John's memories would fade away again. 2) River had to disappear after their first meeting, because it is only without River in the picture that John would want to go to the moon (i.e. only when they're separated does their promise take shape); that was the crucial part of his motivation that Rosalene and Watts needed and couldn't find in their many blind tries prior to learning of John and River's first meeting. All the jumping was necessary to find that piece of his memory.

The stargazing is not a red herring, but did in fact occur in both scenarios, whether or not John remembers and whether or not River was present in his life later on.

Watts is upset for the same reason that the player may feel upset by the end of the game: Is removing River from most of John's life for the sake of carrying out the client's wish and their promise truly the more desirable path compared to the reality that John and River lived after having found each other at school, especially after you've witnessed everything they've gone through together? In the last stages of John's life, their happiness may have been clouded by the fact that they couldn't bridge the gap that John's missing memories created (with neither of them having been aware of the reason behind it); John was unable to comprehend River's distance and obsession with both the paper rabbits as well as the lighthouse, whereas River was unable to get John to remember their first meeting that was so very important to her no matter how hard she tried. But in the end, it's still the reality they managed to build together, and the River that you, the player, know, is the River from all the real memories, the River who grew up with John - and doesn't the fact that they were able to find each other again in spite of the missing memories have some merit?

Removing River from John's early life comes close to deleting her and is, as explained above, sufficient reason for Watts to react the way he did. Additionally, there was no guarantee that River, in the simulated version of John's life, would actually return even if John achieves his dream of going to the moon, because reintroducing River is not within Rosalene and Watts' capacity. That's why Rosalene asked him to trust her intuition while being unsure of her decision throughout the ordeal, and why the two of them were stunned and touched when "River" did reappear.

(Ugh I'm sorry this got so long; I initially misunderstood what you labeled as a red herring, so I edited my reply with what will hopefully clear up the confusion.)

Nice. That was a very thorough rundown of the plot. I appreciate it, and I enjoyed reading all of it. Although, I did not mean to say the stargazing event was the red herring. I was saying Rosalene's seemingly cold and calculating course of action that looked as if she was going to remove River from a significant portion of John's life solely to transplant the passion of going to the moon in John was the red herring. In actuality, Rosalene had more noble intentions of hoping to reunite John and River (albeit, it's all a fabrication) as well as accomplishing their job of getting John to the moon. Watts' surprise at the end wasn't that Rosalene's plan of reintroducing River had worked; he was surprised that River showed up. Period. He did not know Rosalene wanted to reunite John and River at the end. It's a sticky situation to be in for the writer. On one hand, you don't want to reveal Rosalene's full intention because you want John and River's reunion to be more impactful for the player, but on the other hand, making Rosalene looked as if she intended to do one thing and not the other requires a strong reason. From Rosalene's cagey behavior towards Watts at the end, I felt the typical person would catch a hint of suspicion of there being something more to Rosalene's action and that the withholding of information was transparent. That is why I thought the red herring did not succeed or felt natural.

[40_Onyx???]

Well Lethe nailed it in my opinion)
I want to add one thing. The River's death became the trigger for the old moon wish, John thought subconsciously about it like a opportunity to "regroup" with his first and only love. It wasn't unrealizable dream of his life, as doctors thougth