Really disappointed so far

[DaviddesJ]

RW is one of my favorite games ever, so I was really looking forward to RW2. But it seems like the game is moving backwards in almost all of the interesting ways. The pattern of the changes seems to be to greatly de-emphasize strategy and planning. For example:

- Auto health and mana refresh makes resource planning less central. A big part of RW strategy is not running out of healing potions, not running out of mana potions, using those resources efficiently. If you have spells that aren't very useful on one level, carrying them over and making them useful on the next level, that sort of thing. All much less present now.

- Circles for SP discounts were central to RW. Planning the tradeoff between paying full cost to buy or upgrade now, vs waiting for a discount. Being guided in which spells and skills to choose by the discounts. Tradeoff between what you get from a level, the discounts you want now vs. resources for later. Tradeoff between trying to use the circle early on a level, perhaps arriving on it, vs arriving in a safer spot. All of that is gone.

- Shrines were more strategic than items are now, especially since you get a choice of items typically. A level has a shrine, it might work great with one of your spells, or it might combo well to encourage you to buy a spell that you otherwise would not have. Items are spell-agnostic and so there's less strategy in the synergy.

It seems like most of these changes are deliberately intended to make the game less strategic. I'm reminded of this good article on how, overall, the audience for computer games is less interested in strategy. Is that a fair assessment of what RW2 is aiming for? There may be a market there, but I can't help but find it disappointing. Meanwhile, I'm going back to RW1.

https://quanticfoundry.com/2024/05/21/strategy-decline/#

[kotamine]

I agree that resource management was really fun in RW1. Being forced to conserve your charges and use as few as possible was far more engaging than just, throwing all your spells out because who cares, you'll just get a free refill at the end of the realm. Conjuration builds especially are more braindead than ever before.

As for circles and shrines though, I have to disagree. Circles encouraged and incentivized hoarding SP until you could unload it at a relevant circle. It slowed down the core gameplay loop for no real benefit. It feels good being able to spend SP the moment you get it, without missing out on anything. Shrines vs Items is more up to preference I feel like. Other than some items being hilariously overpowered, I think I like items more, largely due to how they can synergize together. And as amazing as some of the shrines were, I feel like they were way too limiting, especially in regards to what spells you could put them on.

That being said I'm surprised you didn't mention the lacking enemy variety (down to 260 enemies from 500 in the first game), questionable difficulty curve (the early game is the hardest due to low SP and harsh enemy scaling, lategame is hilariously easy because you snowball out of control), and overall poor balance. It all results in a very unpolished experience compared to the first game, at least for now.

Also, feel free to disregard the guy below me, he's been weirdly argumentative despite having nothing of value to say in other threads as well.

[Jamjars]

Circles felt bad because they sucked when you didn't spend SP at one, and they didn't scale to late game. Scrolls are better because they scale and don't make spending sp suck.

Shrines were moved to spell upgrades to be more interesting upgrades and less reliant on good run rng to get them.

and the potion upgrade just eliminated the chance of being potion starved.

All these changes are entirely good. just needs repolishing. RW2 is the superior game.

Originally posted by kotamine:

That being said I'm surprised you didn't mention the lacking enemy variety (down to 260 enemies from 500 in the first game),

Also, feel free to disregard the guy above me, he's been weirdly argumentative despite having nothing of value to say in other threads as well.

The lack of enemy variety is addressed by the modifier system. All the cut enemies were just "burning satyr" or whatever. with the modifiers, variety is up overall. More base types. Can you point to any base enemy types that were culled between games that you want back?

And hey, no need to be so rude to OP. Just because your only arguments last thread were "everyone who disagrees with me is either a n00b who wants easymode or a troll" doesn't mean you can import that here. Let's keep things civil, please.

[kotamine]

Originally posted by Jamjars:

Can you point to any base enemy types that were culled between games that you want back?

giant goblin, armored goblin, lanky goblin, psychic goblin, goblin void demolitionist, goblin fire demolitionist, goblin siege mechanic, giant bat, toxic bat, flappy the bat king, giant void bomber, giant fire bomber, void cluster bomber, fire cluster bomber, ash imp, firestorm imp, giant fire imp, void imp, rot imp, imp tablet, giant spark imp, xilet the spark imp king, giant ghost, ghost king, haunter, giant mind maggot, flud the mind maggot king, razor beast, giant displacer beast, spirit strider, bloodfrenzy feline, nine the cat, giant green mushboom, acrinar the green mushboom king, giant mantis, giant snake, slazephan the serpent philosopher, toxic spriggan, toxic boggart, giant boggart, boggart aether zealot, boggart void mage, boggart assassin, giant iron imp, tungsten imp, thrahn the iron imp king, giant satyr, wild satyr, dark satyr, armored satyr, pakkatok the kobold king, kobold longbowman, kobold crossbowman, kobold siege mechanic, faewitch, orc boar rider, orc boar, orc flame zealot, orc pyromancer, akabalah the orc king, orc juggernaut, orc houndlord, arachnid abomination, armored ice lizard, armored fire lizard, giant grey mushboom, palinar the grey mushboom king, toad chaos sorcerer, toad nightmare sorcerer, possessed raven, giant raven, toxic raven, wereraven, giant goatia, goatia tablet, centaur druid, armored centaur, trolltaur, thunderbone shaman, ogre juggernaut, blackblaze shaman, spore beast alpha, possessed spore beast, giant bag of bugs, bag of brain flies, yiggoroth the troll king, troubling mass, big troubler, glass troubler, vampire necromancer, armored vampire, micrognome, gnome druid, gdeit the knome king, giant gnome, copper spider, furnace spider, steel arachnid abomination, copper mantis, furnace mantis, green slime cube, slime brewer, bloodghast, giant polar bear, polar bear blizzard shaman, possessed polar bear, armored polar bear, lesser demonic altar, greater demonic altar, cultist necromancer, cultist chosen, werewolf shaman, werewolf alpha, possessed werewolf, giant chaos chimera, bone archer, bone champion, storm spirit, starfire spirit, spiked golem, giant green gorgon, possessed green gorgon, earth troll coppermancer, earth troll, magmancer, earth troll priest, aether arachnid abomination, spike beast, spike beast alpha, possessed spike beast, red slime cube, praggi the red slime king, ice slime cube, ice slime king (who i haven't encountered during my entire playtime), duergar executioner, duergar lizard lord, duergar dark priest, giant fiery tormentor, fiery tormenting mass, ghostfire tormentor, frostfire tormentor, giant dark tormentor, dark tormenting mass, deathchill tormentor, toxic spike ball, tungsten spike ball, copper spike ball, gazing spike ball, massive storm drake, armored storm drake, massive fire drake, armored fire drake, giant flame toad, armored flame toad, giant void toad, armored void toad, storm troll juggernaut, storm troll mystic, dozadoka the minotaur king, minotaur magma shaman, aelf aethermancer, aelf siege engineer, meilmanir the aelf king, aelf elite, jeweled hand, gold hand, giant deathchill chimera, starfire chimera, giant starfire chimera, fire wyrm broodmother, armored fire wyrm, mega gargoyle, void slime cube, void slime king, efreet juggernaut, giant yeti, yeti shaman, massive void drake, armored void drake, vuldakot the chaos king, massive gold drake, armored gold drake, frosty tormentor, giant frosty tormentor, elder dream hag, ice wyrm broodmother, armored ice wyrm, void king, koseidus the storm king, greater lamasu, gilded lamasu, titan, necromancer, rogath the ogre king, the dreamer, fallen angel, time keeper, medusa, bat dragon, box of woe, jack o' lantern, black rider, white rider, red rider, pale rider, minos the golden bull, chronos the titan immortal, odin the aesir immortal, gemini twin, slime drake

there you go! i specifically avoided mentioning enemies that were replaced by the variant system, such as metallic mantis, and im sure i missed a few. i fully expect you to come up with something stupid like "well, actually armored goblin didn't add much to the experience" but neither do the variants, and it's really hard to argue that enemies like nine the cat, the riders, or the kings didn't contribute massively to the enemy variety

[Jamjars]

Hmm, yeah, that is a pretty reduced list. Hopefully the dev will reintroduce at least some of those. Rock worms and pachyderms will feel like less of a problem if they show up more rarely. Though again, a lot of those are variants like toxic, king, copper, possessed, armored, and giant. The dev probably is planning on converting them into modifiers.

Originally posted by kotamine:

there you go! i specifically avoided mentioning enemies that were replaced by the variant system, such as metallic mantis, and im sure i missed a few. i fully expect you to come up with something stupid like "well, actually armored goblin didn't add much to the experience" but neither do the variants, and it's really hard to argue that enemies like nine the cat, the riders, or the kings didn't contribute massively to the enemy variety

And yeah, individually, armored goblin wasn’t that important. Just a stronger goblin. Kind of generic, but also inoffensive and easily convertible into an enemy modifier. And I’ve definitely run into spark spirits, slime drakes, riders, rot imps and other enemies in that list in 2.

Also again, there's no reason to be so rude unprovoked. Are you always like this against people who merely disagree with you? I saw that edit changing your post from harassing OP for no reason to harassing me for no reason. People are much more likely to give you respect if you don't immediately start being a jerk every time.

[kotamine]

Originally posted by Jamjars:

And I’ve definitely run into spark spirits, slime drakes, riders, rot imps and other enemies in that list in 2.

i was looking at the bestiary of both RW1 and RW2 as i went, but it's possible i missed some things. i was pretty sure the riders weren't in RW2. and spark spirits are in RW2, but storm and starfire spirits aren't; the former gets stronger when witnessing ice and lightning spells, the latter with arcane and fire spells

Originally posted by Jamjars:

Also again, there's no reason to be so rude unprovoked. Are you always like this against people who merely disagree with you? I saw that edit changing your post from harassing OP for no reason to harassing me for no reason. People are much more likely to give you respect if you don't immediately start being a jerk every time.

don't act like you didn't completely ignore what other people said in other threads so you could randomly throw out reddit buzzwords. people tend to not be rude if you're not rude to them first

[Jamjars]

Originally posted by kotamine:

i was looking at the bestiary of both RW1 and RW2 as i went, but it's possible i missed some things. i was pretty sure the riders weren't in RW2. and spark spirits are in RW2, but storm and starfire spirits aren't; the former gets stronger when witnessing ice and lightning spells, the latter with arcane and fire spells

don't act like you didn't completely ignore what other people said in other threads so you could randomly throw out reddit buzzwords. people tend to not be rude if you're not rude to them first

It doesn't change that most of those monsters can be turned into modifiers, and probably will be eventually.

I don't know what you're talking about because I don't even read reddit, dude. You're the one starting it in this thread. You keep making wild and baseless accusations against people. You should cut it out.

[kotamine]

Originally posted by Jamjars:

You keep making wild and baseless accusations

https://steamcommunity.com/app/2058570/discussions/0/4340984986768465697/#c6297799115128019566
you could just like, own up to it, yknow. instead you just come off as an even bigger prick when you try to gaslight someone like this

[Jamjars]

I try to have a civil conversation and this is what I get. I really should learn to recognize gimmick trolls sooner and stop offering them the benefit of the doubt.

[Vengyr]

Originally posted by kotamine:

Also, feel free to disregard the guy below me, he's been weirdly argumentative despite having nothing of value to say in other threads as well.

Not the first game forum I've seen him doing this btw.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by kotamine:

As for circles and shrines though, I have to disagree. Circles encouraged and incentivized hoarding SP until you could unload it at a relevant circle.

Exactly. That's what I liked about it. You're trying to delay spending your SP until you can do so more efficiently, but sometimes you do have to do so to survive.

Shrines vs Items is more up to preference I feel like. Other than some items being hilariously overpowered, I think I like items more, largely due to how they can synergize together. And as amazing as some of the shrines were, I feel like they were way too limiting, especially in regards to what spells you could put them on.

Again, I think those limits are good. Limits are what make a game fun. Sometimes I would learn a particular spell just so I could buff it at a shrine.

But, of course, different people can like different things. At this point, it just seems like RW1 was made for people who like the things I like, while RW2 isn't being made for me or people like me. So I'm sad, but I will keep playing RW1.

[Jamjars]

Originally posted by Vengyr:

Not the first game forum I've seen him doing this btw.

Not the first game forum I've seen you taking potshots at me because you lost a argument over a year ago. But you do you I guess.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ:

But, of course, different people can like different things. At this point, it just seems like RW1 was made for people who like the things I like, while RW2 isn't being made for me or people like me. So I'm sad, but I will keep playing RW1.

This is a good sign that it was smart for the dev to fork the game from there, and make rw2 a sequel instead of an update, because of these radical changes in gameplay. Wether one is superior or not is kind of a moot point when both exist and are playable on demand. I'm happy RW2 exists, and that RW1 still exists so folks like you can enjoy it.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Jamjars:

This is a good sign that it was smart for the dev to fork the game from there, and make rw2 a sequel instead of an update, because of these radical changes in gameplay. Wether one is superior or not is kind of a moot point when both exist and are playable on demand. I'm happy RW2 exists, and that RW1 still exists so folks like you can enjoy it.

Well, maybe. But also it's disappointing that RW1 isn't getting any updates. There's lots of small things that could still enhance the game. But the Steam marketplace dynamics mean that RW1 isn't going to get any attention once RW2 is out. (And even before RW2 was out, RW1 didn't get any updates in over a year. Not even small things.)

[Vengyr]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ:

Originally posted by Jamjars:

This is a good sign that it was smart for the dev to fork the game from there, and make rw2 a sequel instead of an update, because of these radical changes in gameplay. Wether one is superior or not is kind of a moot point when both exist and are playable on demand. I'm happy RW2 exists, and that RW1 still exists so folks like you can enjoy it.

Well, maybe. But also it's disappointing that RW1 isn't getting any updates. There's lots of small things that could still enhance the game. But the Steam marketplace dynamics mean that RW1 isn't going to get any attention once RW2 is out. (And even before RW2 was out, RW1 didn't get any updates in over a year. Not even small things.)

Have you tried mods? There are some pretty cool ones, like 'underused options' making some trap choices actually good.

Imo RW1 is fine as a finished game, if people want more content, there are mods, but the game is polished enough.

[kotamine]

Originally posted by Vengyr:

Imo RW1 is fine as a finished game, if people want more content, there are mods, but the game is polished enough.

i disagree. there are plenty of issues that could easily be fixed, but just aren't going to be; like floating eyeballs losing your eye spells upon reincarnating, or trying to preview upgrades of orb control causing the game to crash

[Vengyr]

Originally posted by kotamine:

Originally posted by Vengyr:

Imo RW1 is fine as a finished game, if people want more content, there are mods, but the game is polished enough.

i disagree. there are plenty of issues that could easily be fixed, but just aren't going to be; like floating eyeballs losing your eye spells upon reincarnating, or trying to preview upgrades of orb control causing the game to crash

Both of these are fixed by mods (no more scams and bugfixes, respectively).