(spoiler) so about Sawa Sensei

[Sckarton]

this is spoiler discussion

let me say this once and for all, Sawa sensei deserves it. she let mikoshiba let go free of bullying because head teacher and lawyer begged her to not tell the truth (they didn't threatened her with anything or even gave an offer she can't refuse) and she lied about it in court despite knowing everything.
in fact, she could've easily stated "toshiro was hunted by mikoshiba. while i didn't see bullying happen, i saw toshiro had bloody nose and was hiding from mikoshiba one time on roof. i did make an anonymous questionnaire for anyone to submit which as you may have known stated it didn't show any proof. want to know why? because head teacher scrapped and he begged me to stay silent about it. i tried every attempt to help toshiro but head teacher was an obstacle that prevented everything in my power to help toshiro." but instead she hid it away.
why? i have no idea which is weird because that's her dream job and also she wants to help bully victims whenever she could. but i guess she only wants to claim she helped them instead of actually putting the leg work which is why keido was getting bullied in her own class while being oblivious about it and also trying to stop yagami from doing his job every step. funny how after her death the plot start moving at breakneck speed.

[Fear dot Com]

I mean, her going against them could've ended her career, and this sort of stuff happens in real life as well. She's testifying against powerful and crooked people, no doubt they would've made life miserable for her afterwards.

[Red]

Sanest bully victim take

[Sckarton]

Originally posted by Body #19:

I mean, her going against them could've ended her career, and this sort of stuff happens in real life as well. She's testifying against powerful and crooked people, no doubt they would've made life miserable for her afterwards.

they were begging her to not tell them the truth. the keyword is begging. if they have any power, then they wouldn't have begged her to lie in her testament. they would've used something they can hold it on her like how kuwana is holding the bullying footage to make mamiya and others to kidnapping and torture. if they have something on sawa, pretty sure she'd mention it when she was crying to yagami.
even koda was a victim of bullying of mikoshiba which if kuwana didn't kidnapped him, i'm pretty sure koda might be assaulted before committed suicide like toshiro and sawa would just pretend she didn't know about it. you know, it's good thing kuwana and yagami intervene or the school would've had another suicide victim due to bullying.

[Z2k1]

Originally posted by Sckarton:

Originally posted by Body #19:

I mean, her going against them could've ended her career, and this sort of stuff happens in real life as well. She's testifying against powerful and crooked people, no doubt they would've made life miserable for her afterwards.

they were begging her to not tell them the truth. the keyword is begging. if they have any power, then they wouldn't have begged her to lie in her testament. they would've used something they can hold it on her like how kuwana is holding the bullying footage to make mamiya and others to kidnapping and torture. if they have something on sawa, pretty sure she'd mention it when she was crying to yagami.
even koda was a victim of bullying of mikoshiba which if kuwana didn't kidnapped him, i'm pretty sure koda might be assaulted before committed suicide like toshiro and sawa would just pretend she didn't know about it. you know, it's good thing kuwana and yagami intervene or the school would've had another suicide victim due to bullying.

I don't think it was begging but subtle intimidation. And speaking from experience as someone who interned at a law firm for a while, if she went against her school's stance, she'd achieve nothing. She'd get branded a hostile witness and be eviscerated by the school's lawyer--exposed to the world as a liar. If that happens, there goes her teaching career.

She was caught between a rock and a hard place: tell the truth and lose her career, or lie and remain on the faculty from where she could at least try to protect her remaining students. Also, don't underestimate the Japanese's cultural aversion to breaking the status quo. Rebels there ignored even when they're truthful.

[Sckarton]

Originally posted by Z2k1:

Originally posted by Sckarton:

they were begging her to not tell them the truth. the keyword is begging. if they have any power, then they wouldn't have begged her to lie in her testament. they would've used something they can hold it on her like how kuwana is holding the bullying footage to make mamiya and others to kidnapping and torture. if they have something on sawa, pretty sure she'd mention it when she was crying to yagami.
even koda was a victim of bullying of mikoshiba which if kuwana didn't kidnapped him, i'm pretty sure koda might be assaulted before committed suicide like toshiro and sawa would just pretend she didn't know about it. you know, it's good thing kuwana and yagami intervene or the school would've had another suicide victim due to bullying.

I don't think it was begging but subtle intimidation. And speaking from experience as someone who interned at a law firm for a while, if she went against her school's stance, she'd achieve nothing. She'd get branded a hostile witness and be eviscerated by the school's lawyer--exposed to the world as a liar. If that happens, there goes her teaching career.

She was caught between a rock and a hard place: tell the truth and lose her career, or lie and remain on the faculty from where she could at least try to protect her remaining students. Also, don't underestimate the Japanese's cultural aversion to breaking the status quo. Rebels there ignored even when they're truthful.

that's something wasn't implied in the game. she flat out said they were begging her to not tell the truth and when you beg someone, it usually means you have nothing to offer and see if they listened to you. beside, we saw her being a bossy towards chairman of the school who has the highest authority in the school. so you want to tell me she can stands up to chairman but not head teacher on toshiro's class who admitted he tampered with evidence to her when he was begging her to not expose the truth?

[Z2k1]

Originally posted by Sckarton:

Originally posted by Z2k1:

I don't think it was begging but subtle intimidation. And speaking from experience as someone who interned at a law firm for a while, if she went against her school's stance, she'd achieve nothing. She'd get branded a hostile witness and be eviscerated by the school's lawyer--exposed to the world as a liar. If that happens, there goes her teaching career.

She was caught between a rock and a hard place: tell the truth and lose her career, or lie and remain on the faculty from where she could at least try to protect her remaining students. Also, don't underestimate the Japanese's cultural aversion to breaking the status quo. Rebels there ignored even when they're truthful.

that's something wasn't implied in the game. she flat out said they were begging her to not tell the truth and when you beg someone, it usually means you have nothing to offer and see if they listened to you. beside, we saw her being a bossy towards chairman of the school who has the highest authority in the school. so you want to tell me she can stands up to chairman but not head teacher on toshiro's class who admitted he tampered with evidence to her when he was begging her to not expose the truth?

Begging doesn't imply a power dynamic in favor of the person being begged from. It could be a side effect of trying to look formal instead of imposing, even when you actually mean to be imposing. I've worked with Japanese clients and the ones I had almost never gave direct orders but made things sound like nice requests. I am aware that my experience might not indicate the norm, but my point is that you can "beg" and actually be sending a veiled order.

And I still maintain that even if she went rogue and told the truth in court, it'd have been for naught because she'd just be declared hostile and discredited. It wouldn't have made a difference, and it's possible the school's lawyer implied this when he begged.

[Sckarton]

Originally posted by Z2k1:

Originally posted by Sckarton:

that's something wasn't implied in the game. she flat out said they were begging her to not tell the truth and when you beg someone, it usually means you have nothing to offer and see if they listened to you. beside, we saw her being a bossy towards chairman of the school who has the highest authority in the school. so you want to tell me she can stands up to chairman but not head teacher on toshiro's class who admitted he tampered with evidence to her when he was begging her to not expose the truth?

Begging doesn't imply a power dynamic in favor of the person being begged from. It could be a side effect of trying to look formal instead of imposing, even when you actually mean to be imposing. I've worked with Japanese clients and the ones I had almost never gave direct orders but made things sound like nice requests. I am aware that my experience might not indicate the norm, but my point is that you can "beg" and actually be sending a veiled order.

And I still maintain that even if she went rogue and told the truth in court, it'd have been for naught because she'd just be declared hostile and discredited. It wouldn't have made a difference, and it's possible the school's lawyer implied this when he begged.

how do you know they were forcing it on her when they were begging for her to not do it? if she really was given an ultimatum to either hide it and keep her job or tell the court everything and she loses everything, she would've said that during her breakdown. also, she's the same woman who doesn't mince words to even chairman of the school. beside, the croaked teacher who let mikoshiba get away with murder left the school shortly after court which means he didn't have enough power to even remain in school.
even if we take you words for it, remember koda the student who got bullied by mikoshiba? yeah, she was bullied to near suicide by same guy who she let him get away with murder and she was defending him when yagami was investigating the case until yagami cornered her after the bully who started to see the error of his way telling yagami "dude, she hates mikoshiba with passion. why would she say nice things to him?" and sawa is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around without telling yagami a single thing outside of "feel bad for me for letting bullying get away with murder even though my dream job is to stop bullying from getting away with murder" and yagami only started to actually solve the case after she died and stopped getting in his way.

[Z2k1]

Originally posted by Sckarton:

Originally posted by Z2k1:

Begging doesn't imply a power dynamic in favor of the person being begged from. It could be a side effect of trying to look formal instead of imposing, even when you actually mean to be imposing. I've worked with Japanese clients and the ones I had almost never gave direct orders but made things sound like nice requests. I am aware that my experience might not indicate the norm, but my point is that you can "beg" and actually be sending a veiled order.

And I still maintain that even if she went rogue and told the truth in court, it'd have been for naught because she'd just be declared hostile and discredited. It wouldn't have made a difference, and it's possible the school's lawyer implied this when he begged.

how do you know they were forcing it on her when they were begging for her to not do it? if she really was given an ultimatum to either hide it and keep her job or tell the court everything and she loses everything, she would've said that during her breakdown. also, she's the same woman who doesn't mince words to even chairman of the school. beside, the croaked teacher who let mikoshiba get away with murder left the school shortly after court which means he didn't have enough power to even remain in school.
even if we take you words for it, remember koda the student who got bullied by mikoshiba? yeah, she was bullied to near suicide by same guy who she let him get away with murder and she was defending him when yagami was investigating the case until yagami cornered her after the bully who started to see the error of his way telling yagami "dude, she hates mikoshiba with passion. why would she say nice things to him?" and sawa is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around without telling yagami a single thing outside of "feel bad for me for letting bullying get away with murder even though my dream job is to stop bullying from getting away with murder" and yagami only started to actually solve the case after she died and stopped getting in his way.

I literally just told you how indirection is a very Japanese thing. Instead of saying "don't testify or else," I can imagine it being phrased as "maybe it would be nice if you don't say anything bad? it would make the school look horrible and show the other teachers in a negative light."

What it really means is "you wouldn't want your colleagues and us to hate you, right?" The original phrasing sounds like begging but it's a veiled threat. And sure, I know this bit if dialogue isn't in the game. But neither is the power dynamic you are suggesting because it is based on an erroneous premise. If we're both going to surmise stuff, at least mine is experientially-based. Nearly all the requests we got from our Tokyo-based clients sounded like requests from Bioshock, and were couched as "would you kindly do x thing?"

And Koda wasn't suicidal yet. Don't go there because I can equally mention how no one else has died on her watch in the last four years.

I am not saying the character is perfect--if anything I hate how it exists to be a rhetorical crutch later on. I just think she wasn't quite as evil as you let on.

[Sckarton]

Originally posted by Z2k1:

Originally posted by Sckarton:

how do you know they were forcing it on her when they were begging for her to not do it? if she really was given an ultimatum to either hide it and keep her job or tell the court everything and she loses everything, she would've said that during her breakdown. also, she's the same woman who doesn't mince words to even chairman of the school. beside, the croaked teacher who let mikoshiba get away with murder left the school shortly after court which means he didn't have enough power to even remain in school.
even if we take you words for it, remember koda the student who got bullied by mikoshiba? yeah, she was bullied to near suicide by same guy who she let him get away with murder and she was defending him when yagami was investigating the case until yagami cornered her after the bully who started to see the error of his way telling yagami "dude, she hates mikoshiba with passion. why would she say nice things to him?" and sawa is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around without telling yagami a single thing outside of "feel bad for me for letting bullying get away with murder even though my dream job is to stop bullying from getting away with murder" and yagami only started to actually solve the case after she died and stopped getting in his way.

I literally just told you how indirection is a very Japanese thing. Instead of saying "don't testify or else," I can imagine it being phrased as "maybe it would be nice if you don't say anything bad? it would make the school look horrible and show the other teachers in a negative light."

What it really means is "you wouldn't want your colleagues and us to hate you, right?" The original phrasing sounds like begging but it's a veiled threat. And sure, I know this bit if dialogue isn't in the game. But neither is the power dynamic you are suggesting because it is based on an erroneous premise. If we're both going to surmise stuff, at least mine is experientially-based. Nearly all the requests we got from our Tokyo-based clients sounded like requests from Bioshock, and were couched as "would you kindly do x thing?"

And Koda wasn't suicidal yet. Don't go there because I can equally mention how no one else has died on her watch in the last four years.

I am not saying the character is perfect--if anything I hate how it exists to be a rhetorical crutch later on. I just think she wasn't quite as evil as you let on.

a kid died and teacher told her he tampered with evidence. "it's just japanese thing" excuse doesn't mean anything because guess what. toshiro is dead and she knew who did it.
if you want to make stuff up like "he's begging not because it shows how bad he screwed the investigation but because he could threaten her with her livelihood" even though the game established she doesn't take ♥♥♥♥ from anyone including the chairman of the school. so where did you get she was threatened by head teacher? point that out without BS excuse of "it's just japanese thing".
i would point out koda's bullying only lasted 3 months not 3 to 6 years like toshiro. so of course she wasn't suicidal because yagami solved the issue before it got out of hand. you know, something sawa couldn't do because action speaks louder.
also, i never said anything about her being evil. only that she's horrible and deserved her punishment from glowie.

[Z2k1]

Originally posted by Sckarton:

Originally posted by Z2k1:

I literally just told you how indirection is a very Japanese thing. Instead of saying "don't testify or else," I can imagine it being phrased as "maybe it would be nice if you don't say anything bad? it would make the school look horrible and show the other teachers in a negative light."

What it really means is "you wouldn't want your colleagues and us to hate you, right?" The original phrasing sounds like begging but it's a veiled threat. And sure, I know this bit if dialogue isn't in the game. But neither is the power dynamic you are suggesting because it is based on an erroneous premise. If we're both going to surmise stuff, at least mine is experientially-based. Nearly all the requests we got from our Tokyo-based clients sounded like requests from Bioshock, and were couched as "would you kindly do x thing?"

And Koda wasn't suicidal yet. Don't go there because I can equally mention how no one else has died on her watch in the last four years.

I am not saying the character is perfect--if anything I hate how it exists to be a rhetorical crutch later on. I just think she wasn't quite as evil as you let on.

a kid died and teacher told her he tampered with evidence. "it's just japanese thing" excuse doesn't mean anything because guess what. toshiro is dead and she knew who did it.
if you want to make stuff up like "he's begging not because it shows how bad he screwed the investigation but because he could threaten her with her livelihood" even though the game established she doesn't take ♥♥♥♥ from anyone including the chairman of the school. so where did you get she was threatened by head teacher? point that out without BS excuse of "it's just japanese thing".
i would point out koda's bullying only lasted 3 months not 3 to 6 years like toshiro. so of course she wasn't suicidal because yagami solved the issue before it got out of hand. you know, something sawa couldn't do because action speaks louder.
also, i never said anything about her being evil. only that she's horrible and deserved her punishment from glowie.

"The game establishes that she doesn't take ♥♥♥♥ from anyone" might be true when the game starts but you have no way of knowing if she was ALWAYS like that. If anything, saying her piece and then failing to follow-up has been her thing since high school. It's possible that the defiance is a future development born out of frustration and disillusionment. Neither do you know if things will be the same after the lawyers return to the picture. Those guys can be worse than mafiosi.

Anyway, all I am saying that she's done nothing that a totally normal, non-horrible person wouldn't do under sufficient stress. And that there's no basis to say she had the upper hand in the negotiating table other than conjecture from her seemingly defiant behavior that might not have even been present in the original trial.

I am very sure you still won't agree and that's perfectly fine. I'm turning off notifications and you can find someone else to play with.

[Muffin]

Kuwana haters like to pretend Sawa did not intentionally commit perjury . Kuwana honestly didn't know his student was being bullied. At least nothing in game contradicted his claim. Sawa didn't know that girl was being bullied did she? Sometimes teachers really don't know. Kuwana's probably just one of those teachers who tried to be cool and friendly with the kids. Everyone had a teacher like that in school. I'm glad Kuwana did not let Kagami guilt trip him. I'm glad the writers didn't force Kagami's view down our throats. People still don't take bullying seriously. You could tell from the discussion around this game people still don't really care about bullying victims.

[Sckarton]

Originally posted by Muffin:

Kuwana haters like to pretend Sawa did not intentionally commit perjury . Kuwana honestly didn't know his student was being bullied. At least nothing in game contradicted his claim. Sawa didn't know that girl was being bullied did she? Sometimes teachers really don't know. Kuwana's probably just one of those teachers who tried to be cool and friendly with the kids. Everyone had a teacher like that in school. I'm glad Kuwana did not let Kagami guilt trip him. I'm glad the writers didn't force Kagami's view down our throats. People still don't take bullying seriously. You could tell from the discussion around this game people still don't really care about bullying victims.

yagami's only argument was "what about sawa sensei" regarding kuwana's crusade against bullies which remember, the only reason everything got out of hand was because public security started to middle in it just in hope they might use reiko for their political gain which i thought RK was referring to her instead of generic red knife. as if both kuwana and reiko would have the far sight to know some day a glow in the dark would hire bunch of ex yakuza from tojo and omi after they disbanded 2 years and they would be working to crack down on them. no one did. not yagami, not kuwana, not reiko and not even I and i was been following the plot until they reached to that realization.