Going back to Dragon's Dogma 1 has made me appreciate this more.

[Arthur Morrigan]

That game is rough, holy hell. Nearly every single change made in DD2 seems to be for the better. So many useless abilities, so many useless items clogging up my inventory, clunky menus, pawns that refuse to ever use any of their abilities (or do much in general), so many trash tier MMORPGs style filler quests.

I'm honestly shocked anyone could think DD2 is a downgrade in any way (besides story, that remains to be seen). I can only conclude that people simply don't remember what DD1 is actually like and have instead invented a game in their head.

DD2 has its issues, for sure, but DD1 seems to have all of those same issues so far, but now they're far worse, and there's more of them.

[Sham!]

Originally posted by Damian Ramirez:

Originally posted by Sham!:

the point is very simple, the game achieves -arguably mind you- the bare minimum for a second installation of an existing ip

nobody is asking for perfection but relesing an rpg without a "new game" option in 2024, just to name one of the issues, it's pretty indicative of how half baked this game was on release, and still is after 1 month

well if the DLC release on november , you gonna see the reason behind the game is '''''half-baked''' or why the game seems to be pretty vague on the plot if DLC have anything related to it

i get what you are trying to say but cutting content and reselling it as dlc is not really as cool as just getting a finished game

[Arthur Morrigan]

Originally posted by Sham!:

the point is very simple, the game achieves -arguably mind you- the bare minimum for a second installation of an existing ip

What an enchanted life you must lead if this comes across as a legitimate grievance to you.

[Soul]

Originally posted by 1CMF:

Originally posted by Lavian:

Here's a list of some issues:

• Why do the leaders of Batthal know who you are? The Sovran of Vermund has been crowned, and the Sovran is supposed to be the Arisen. You're not the Sovran.
  
• Once you've made friends with the Queen of Batthal, why are those connections not used against Phaseus? He works in a royal laboratory in Batthal.
  
• What's with the Pawn slavery in Batthal when the Queen is supposedly trying to widen Pawn acceptance?
  
• Why the hell am I handing the Dulled Godsbane over to some dude in the Forbidden Magick Research Laboratory knowing he's working under Phaseus, a man who is explicitly our enemy?
  
• Why the hell is the main story quest to bring the Empowered Godsbane, once we have it, to Phaseus even though he's explicitly our enemy?
  
• Why do none of the Arisen rapidly age when the dragon is defeated?
  
• How does the cycle even work without killing the Seneschal? They're just making you the king of Vermund in the normal ending.
  
• Why does stabbing yourself with Godsbane while resonating with the dragon stop the cycle?
  
• What does the Brine even have to do with the cycle? Why was it not a bigger deal before?
  
• Why was the False Sovran in Phaseus' party at the excavation site? What was the purpose? He's officially the king of Vermund and he's just off with some researcher of a neighboring nation that has tense relations with Vermund, deep in the territory of that nation?
  
• There was no fanfare for the fight against the False Sovran. Phaseus just tells him "go fight". We don't even get a showdown dialogue with the man. He doesn't have any lines when he dies.
  
• What was the point of the Caged Magistrate? You save him from the prison and then... nothing. He's just the source of a side quest item.
  
• What even happened with the quest to take back the throne in the first place? You were supposed to find a way to counteract Godsway (and you do, in the form of the Empowered Godsbane) and then you do nothing with that ability in relation to taking back the throne. They don't even explicitly call out the fact that it counteracts Godsway. You just may notice it in gameplay if you had run into the impacts of Godsway out in the open world before getting the blade.
  
• What was Phaseus' plan in the first place? Summon a pet Lesser Dragon? Why did he think that was going to stop the cycle?
  
• Why does anyone, other than the Seneschal throwing a fit over not being the real god, even want to end the cycle? It's literally there to stop the apocalypse!

Actually good list of issues. While the game poorly explains them, this is the best I can extrapolate.

1. Beren is supposedly working with outside contacts to prevent war between the two countries, as the Queen and Pheasus have been working in the background. That is why Ser Menella meets you at the entrance. This is still a poor connection as the queen supposedly knows what the secret magic research lab is doing, as it is connected to her palace....
   
   
2. Again to the point above, the Queen's connections are poorly communicated, but there is a faction trying to assassinate her and make the people of Bakbattahl invigorated and rise up against the opposition (Vernworth??). So there is supposed to be a power struggle in Bakbattah as well as Vernworth.
   
   
3. The pawns are in the way of the Queen keeping control of Vernworth with a new arisen. If they are controlled by a true arisen, her plot is exposed. Phaesus is researching how to save the world from the dragon by controling it, thus he is aligned with the Queen who does not want the Arisen to exist at all. One wants power, the other does not want to rely on another's power and believes anyone should have the power. Pawns are just an extension of the Arisen and the cycle that Phaesus wants to break and be free of a god.
   
   
4. This one I didn't want to do either, but the Ghost guy (pathfinder? worldforged? seneschal? watcher?) is working with you and tells you to help the magic research lab, which he then controls them to give you the godsbane...still does not make sense, since that is the key to defeating the ghost guy and the cycle as well, so why would he help you do that. Ultimately the ghost guy wants you to fight the dragon and be the strongest and then start a new story with a new hero for his entertainment.
   
   
5. Again, this is the worst part of the story with a lot of plot holes. Who exactly is the Worldforged, Pathfinder, Seneschal, Watcher is a point of contention. You bring the Empowered Godsbane to Phaseus so that the dragon can be summoned in essence. Only so that you are forced to fight the dragon.
   
   
6. The other Arisen aging is a plot hole/retcon from the first one, as you said nothing happens to them, but supposedly they all had different dragons, what ever that means.
   
   
7. The idea of the seneschal has changed in this one. Apparently no one ever kills "the watcher" and he just keeps tricking people into being heroes. Even at the end, do you actually win? The cycle starts over and new adventures/heroes are made. But this time the ghost guy can't watch? The normal ending he is there to watch and he will reboot the cycle as he sees fit. The cycle being a new dragon and a new arisen, not necessarily a new world.
   
   
8. The dragon has "your heart" so "you are the dragon". So killing yourself also kills the dragon.
   
   
9. The brine apparently is the world forged/ghostguy/seneschal or at least an extension of his power. There is a theory that the unmaking arrow has white tentacles, while the brine is red...so maybe there are two "gods" controlling the world?
   
   
10. The false sovereign was at the excavation site for political deception. If he kills the dragon, no one can say he isn't the true thing. Phaesus thinks he can control the dragon, to make it an easy kill for the false sovereign.
    
    
11. Yah, the story of the False Sovereign is anticlimactic, can't argue there.
    
    
12. The Caged Magistrate is a source of knowledge for maybe 2 quests, that's about it. They could have leaned on him more in the story.
    
    
13. Taking back the throne and proving the false sovereign is a fake gets rolled into fighting the dragon and then it becomes a back burner thing, because well. ther eis a dragon destroying the world. You were going to prove it during the coronation, but they had a godsway, so controlling pawns isn't unique to the arisen. Which forces you to find out more about the godsway/godsbane/etc. Both story lines quickly converge and then conclude.
    
    
14. Phaesus' plan was to negate the need of an arisen ruleing humanity and that humanity should rule itself. He hates gods and destiny and believes in "science" (magic) and self empowerment. He summoned the dragon to dethrone the true arisen and put one of his own choosing in there to control with the queen.
    
    
15. The cycle is supposedly just a closed world that keeps spawning dragons and arisen and people are forced to exist on that island/continent and can never go out into the ocean and see the rest of the world because they are trapped by the brine (is there even more to the world if that is all that existence is supposed to be made by the god???). There are supposedly many realities/universes that the watcher/pathfinder what ever is entertained with beyond the rift.
    
    So this world not being "fun" anymore because we went off script is the worldforged/watcher/pathfinder saying, screw this show, I'm getting rid of it. We apparently stop the destruction and happilly ever after...or is that part of the entertainment and we are playing back into the hands of "the cycle"?

Not perfect at all, and a lot of plot holes, but the game tries to explain them a little if you dig. It's trying to be like dark souls elusive, but just not quite there.

lot of points.... to cover but I can add a bit to some...

I believe the point of the false Arisen was pretty much just a test subject.... not just a political tool....

they wanted to give him the godsway powers to mimic an Arisen... and had him there to "defeat" the dragon easy like.... if they could do it successfully.... then their main goal could be achieved...

which is to do away with having an Arisen take the throne.... you find a letter that explains Disa's motivations to why she did the things she did.... not all Arisen have made good rulers in the past.... one was reffered as the "mad one" or something like that even.... think it might have been the one at the bottom of the seafloor shrine who founded the nation of vernworth....

but historically.... you have a nation that essentially had its king chosen by the Dragon when he would choose the Arisen... they wanted more say over who should actually run the kingdom themselves and not have the Dragon determine their leader pretty much...

also the village elder in harve mentions a few pieces of info....

like the former Arisen at the bottom of the seafloor.... was actually a god... that went down from his throne... meaning pretty much he was seneschal or god at one point...

and the brine is pretty much an agent of the watchers.... that is living and uses the giant as its pawn to keep the dragon in check... meaning if it does too much damage its supposed to awaken and I guess stop it.... which when your given the godsbane at first it "wakes" up..... and when you empower it... it starts to go after the point where they wanna summon the dragon to control it... because its a threat to breaking the cycle... they dont want you to use it on the dragon...

also... the unmoored world.... is the real world.... the elder mentions how the world we're living in is an illusion and all.... when you use the godsbane you dispel the illusion and see the world on the brink of destruction.... which also shows buildings that are around that were in the first game.... like as in the exact same locations if you put the maps overlapping each other.... ancient battlegrounds and bluemoon tower for instance are in their exact spots as in first game..... the game even has a different title screen when you reach unmoored world... before unmoored world title screen says "dragons dogma".... when your in unmoored world it says "dragons dogma 2".... like a hint that the unmoored world is just a future version of the first game making it "2"...

[Sham!]

Originally posted by Screams of an Absolution:

Originally posted by Sham!:

the point is very simple, the game achieves -arguably mind you- the bare minimum for a second installation of an existing ip

What an enchanted life you must lead if this comes across as a legitimate grievance to you.

uh? it's not a grievance at all to me, i like rpg, checked a new one and it's in an unfinished state for 70$, i'll probably get it at half price and actually finished in 6 months

why are you even upset?

[1CMF]

The idea the unmooored world being the "real world" is interesting (mooring meaning docked or attached, so a world detached from the whole or...the system a'la matrix style). That actually makes a lot of sense.

A bunch of realities being simulated, and this one disconnects from the simulation....but then at the end when the world is perfect again. Is that the system taking over, or is that the simulation working away from the system and operating independently but not in apocalypse mode?

[Damian Ramirez]

Originally posted by Sham!:

Originally posted by Damian Ramirez:

well if the DLC release on november , you gonna see the reason behind the game is '''''half-baked''' or why the game seems to be pretty vague on the plot if DLC have anything related to it

i get what you are trying to say but cutting content and reselling it as dlc is not really as cool as just getting a finished game

maybe. But anything that is maybe 50% out of the context of the base game has to be an expansion. Even if it sounds greedy asf , it is what it is.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Screams of an Absolution:

Originally posted by Soul:

the cycle refers to the Dragon and the Arisen cycle....

where the dragon shows up and causes destruction.... and finds someone worthy to become an Arisen... and the Arisen has to defeat the dragon.... there are break periods in between when the next dragon shows up....

like in the first game the ruler of the kingdom then was a former Arisen that made a deal with the dragon instead of killing it.... and he was still on the throne when the next Arisen showed up... but a few decades past I believe at least.... since the former Arisen was still immortal cause the dragon had his heart still.... when dragon died though he got his heart back and aged super fast to how old he should have been....

See, this would've been helpful to actually have explained at any point in the game, rather than hinging the climax of your mostly unrelated story on knowledge from a game from 12 years ago.

it actually is explained in this game.... about the cycle and all.... notes and other characters talk about it.... like talking to the pawn lady in the borderwatch area.... and talking to other former Arisen in this game who failed to kill the dragon... also notes scattered about...

[Lavian]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by 1CMF:

Actually good list of issues. While the game poorly explains them, this is the best I can extrapolate.

1. Beren is supposedly working with outside contacts to prevent war between the two countries, as the Queen and Pheasus have been working in the background. That is why Ser Menella meets you at the entrance. This is still a poor connection as the queen supposedly knows what the secret magic research lab is doing, as it is connected to her palace....
   
   
2. Again to the point above, the Queen's connections are poorly communicated, but there is a faction trying to assassinate her and make the people of Bakbattahl invigorated and rise up against the opposition (Vernworth??). So there is supposed to be a power struggle in Bakbattah as well as Vernworth.
   
   
3. The pawns are in the way of the Queen keeping control of Vernworth with a new arisen. If they are controlled by a true arisen, her plot is exposed. Phaesus is researching how to save the world from the dragon by controling it, thus he is aligned with the Queen who does not want the Arisen to exist at all. One wants power, the other does not want to rely on another's power and believes anyone should have the power. Pawns are just an extension of the Arisen and the cycle that Phaesus wants to break and be free of a god.
   
   
4. This one I didn't want to do either, but the Ghost guy (pathfinder? worldforged? seneschal? watcher?) is working with you and tells you to help the magic research lab, which he then controls them to give you the godsbane...still does not make sense, since that is the key to defeating the ghost guy and the cycle as well, so why would he help you do that. Ultimately the ghost guy wants you to fight the dragon and be the strongest and then start a new story with a new hero for his entertainment.
   
   
5. Again, this is the worst part of the story with a lot of plot holes. Who exactly is the Worldforged, Pathfinder, Seneschal, Watcher is a point of contention. You bring the Empowered Godsbane to Phaseus so that the dragon can be summoned in essence. Only so that you are forced to fight the dragon.
   
   
6. The other Arisen aging is a plot hole/retcon from the first one, as you said nothing happens to them, but supposedly they all had different dragons, what ever that means.
   
   
7. The idea of the seneschal has changed in this one. Apparently no one ever kills "the watcher" and he just keeps tricking people into being heroes. Even at the end, do you actually win? The cycle starts over and new adventures/heroes are made. But this time the ghost guy can't watch? The normal ending he is there to watch and he will reboot the cycle as he sees fit. The cycle being a new dragon and a new arisen, not necessarily a new world.
   
   
8. The dragon has "your heart" so "you are the dragon". So killing yourself also kills the dragon.
   
   
9. The brine apparently is the world forged/ghostguy/seneschal or at least an extension of his power. There is a theory that the unmaking arrow has white tentacles, while the brine is red...so maybe there are two "gods" controlling the world?
   
   
10. The false sovereign was at the excavation site for political deception. If he kills the dragon, no one can say he isn't the true thing. Phaesus thinks he can control the dragon, to make it an easy kill for the false sovereign.
    
    
11. Yah, the story of the False Sovereign is anticlimactic, can't argue there.
    
    
12. The Caged Magistrate is a source of knowledge for maybe 2 quests, that's about it. They could have leaned on him more in the story.
    
    
13. Taking back the throne and proving the false sovereign is a fake gets rolled into fighting the dragon and then it becomes a back burner thing, because well. ther eis a dragon destroying the world. You were going to prove it during the coronation, but they had a godsway, so controlling pawns isn't unique to the arisen. Which forces you to find out more about the godsway/godsbane/etc. Both story lines quickly converge and then conclude.
    
    
14. Phaesus' plan was to negate the need of an arisen ruleing humanity and that humanity should rule itself. He hates gods and destiny and believes in "science" (magic) and self empowerment. He summoned the dragon to dethrone the true arisen and put one of his own choosing in there to control with the queen.
    
    
15. The cycle is supposedly just a closed world that keeps spawning dragons and arisen and people are forced to exist on that island/continent and can never go out into the ocean and see the rest of the world because they are trapped by the brine (is there even more to the world if that is all that existence is supposed to be made by the god???). There are supposedly many realities/universes that the watcher/pathfinder what ever is entertained with beyond the rift.
    
    So this world not being "fun" anymore because we went off script is the worldforged/watcher/pathfinder saying, screw this show, I'm getting rid of it. We apparently stop the destruction and happilly ever after...or is that part of the entertainment and we are playing back into the hands of "the cycle"?

Not perfect at all, and a lot of plot holes, but the game tries to explain them a little if you dig. It's trying to be like dark souls elusive, but just not quite there.

lot of points.... to cover but I can add a bit to some...

I believe the point of the false Arisen was pretty much just a test subject.... not just a political tool....

they wanted to give him the godsway powers to mimic an Arisen... and had him there to "defeat" the dragon easy like.... if they could do it successfully.... then their main goal could be achieved...

which is to do away with having an Arisen take the throne.... you find a letter that explains Disa's motivations to why she did the things she did.... not all Arisen have made good rulers in the past.... one was reffered as the "mad one" or something like that even.... think it might have been the one at the bottom of the seafloor shrine who founded the nation of vernworth....

but historically.... you have a nation that essentially had its king chosen by the Dragon when he would choose the Arisen... they wanted more say over who should actually run the kingdom themselves and not have the Dragon determine their leader pretty much...

also the village elder in harve mentions a few pieces of info....

like the former Arisen at the bottom of the seafloor.... was actually a god... that went down from his throne... meaning pretty much he was seneschal or god at one point...

and the brine is pretty much an agent of the watchers.... that is living and uses the giant as its pawn to keep the dragon in check... meaning if it does too much damage its supposed to awaken and I guess stop it.... which when your given the godsbane at first it "wakes" up..... and when you empower it... it starts to go after the point where they wanna summon the dragon to control it... because its a threat to breaking the cycle... they dont want you to use it on the dragon...

also... the unmoored world.... is the real world.... the elder mentions how the world we're living in is an illusion and all.... when you use the godsbane you dispel the illusion and see the world on the brink of destruction.... which also shows buildings that are around that were in the first game.... like as in the exact same locations if you put the maps overlapping each other.... ancient battlegrounds and bluemoon tower for instance are in their exact spots as in first game..... the game even has a different title screen when you reach unmoored world... before unmoored world title screen says "dragons dogma".... when your in unmoored world it says "dragons dogma 2".... like a hint that the unmoored world is just a future version of the first game making it "2"...

Disa's motivations make sense. Phaseus isn't even a citizen of Vermund, however. The Sovran doesn't even rule the world, they just rule Vermund.

Furthermore, the Mad Sovran is the founder of Vermund. He's not a product of Vermund's political structure revolving around the Arisen. Either he, or someone proceeding after him, put that structure in place. Disa may have believed he was a product of the political structure, but she's pretty bluntly wrong.

If Talos was supposed to be some anti-dragon measure, it's a horrible one. It pretty bluntly fails to do anything of value before your pawn uses it to take down a couple Brine Dragon things. That said, we don't really see anything other than the fact that it's trying to pursue Phaseus for some reason (rather than you).

[Soul]

Originally posted by 1CMF:

The idea the unmooored world being the "real world" is interesting (mooring meaning docked or attached, so a world detached from the whole or...the system a'la matrix style). That actually makes a lot of sense.

A bunch of realities being simulated, and this one disconnects from the simulation....but then at the end when the world is perfect again. Is that the system taking over, or is that the simulation working away from the system and operating independently but not in apocalypse mode?

it kinda reminds me of the plot of "cabin in the woods".... the horror movie where they do ritual sacrifice with monsters against certain people.... and turns out their cruelty is just to give appeasement to an elder god from going crazy and destroying the world....

seems like a similar concept....

[Arthur Morrigan]

It sure sounds like there was potential for a pretty cool story in DD2, I wish they told it.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by Lavian:

Originally posted by Soul:

lot of points.... to cover but I can add a bit to some...

I believe the point of the false Arisen was pretty much just a test subject.... not just a political tool....

they wanted to give him the godsway powers to mimic an Arisen... and had him there to "defeat" the dragon easy like.... if they could do it successfully.... then their main goal could be achieved...

which is to do away with having an Arisen take the throne.... you find a letter that explains Disa's motivations to why she did the things she did.... not all Arisen have made good rulers in the past.... one was reffered as the "mad one" or something like that even.... think it might have been the one at the bottom of the seafloor shrine who founded the nation of vernworth....

but historically.... you have a nation that essentially had its king chosen by the Dragon when he would choose the Arisen... they wanted more say over who should actually run the kingdom themselves and not have the Dragon determine their leader pretty much...

also the village elder in harve mentions a few pieces of info....

like the former Arisen at the bottom of the seafloor.... was actually a god... that went down from his throne... meaning pretty much he was seneschal or god at one point...

and the brine is pretty much an agent of the watchers.... that is living and uses the giant as its pawn to keep the dragon in check... meaning if it does too much damage its supposed to awaken and I guess stop it.... which when your given the godsbane at first it "wakes" up..... and when you empower it... it starts to go after the point where they wanna summon the dragon to control it... because its a threat to breaking the cycle... they dont want you to use it on the dragon...

also... the unmoored world.... is the real world.... the elder mentions how the world we're living in is an illusion and all.... when you use the godsbane you dispel the illusion and see the world on the brink of destruction.... which also shows buildings that are around that were in the first game.... like as in the exact same locations if you put the maps overlapping each other.... ancient battlegrounds and bluemoon tower for instance are in their exact spots as in first game..... the game even has a different title screen when you reach unmoored world... before unmoored world title screen says "dragons dogma".... when your in unmoored world it says "dragons dogma 2".... like a hint that the unmoored world is just a future version of the first game making it "2"...

Disa's motivations make sense. Phaseus isn't even a citizen of Vermund, however. The Sovran doesn't even rule the world, they just rule Vermund.

Furthermore, the Mad Sovran is the founder of Vermund. He's not a product of Vermund's political structure revolving around the Arisen. Either he, or someone proceeding after him, put that structure in place. Disa may have believed he was a product of the political structure, but she's pretty bluntly wrong.

If Talos was supposed to be some anti-dragon measure, it's a horrible one. It pretty bluntly fails to do anything of value before your pawn uses it to take down a couple Brine Dragon things. That said, we don't really see anything other than the fact that it's trying to pursue Phaseus for some reason (rather than you).

There are lots of Taloses underground if you look down from dungeon in ruined castle. It must be the only remaining functional Talos at this point though.

[1CMF]

The expansive Talos robots were the Mad King's efforts to fight a god, So he constructed a bunch of them to have his own army.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Lavian:

Originally posted by Soul:

lot of points.... to cover but I can add a bit to some...

I believe the point of the false Arisen was pretty much just a test subject.... not just a political tool....

they wanted to give him the godsway powers to mimic an Arisen... and had him there to "defeat" the dragon easy like.... if they could do it successfully.... then their main goal could be achieved...

which is to do away with having an Arisen take the throne.... you find a letter that explains Disa's motivations to why she did the things she did.... not all Arisen have made good rulers in the past.... one was reffered as the "mad one" or something like that even.... think it might have been the one at the bottom of the seafloor shrine who founded the nation of vernworth....

but historically.... you have a nation that essentially had its king chosen by the Dragon when he would choose the Arisen... they wanted more say over who should actually run the kingdom themselves and not have the Dragon determine their leader pretty much...

also the village elder in harve mentions a few pieces of info....

like the former Arisen at the bottom of the seafloor.... was actually a god... that went down from his throne... meaning pretty much he was seneschal or god at one point...

and the brine is pretty much an agent of the watchers.... that is living and uses the giant as its pawn to keep the dragon in check... meaning if it does too much damage its supposed to awaken and I guess stop it.... which when your given the godsbane at first it "wakes" up..... and when you empower it... it starts to go after the point where they wanna summon the dragon to control it... because its a threat to breaking the cycle... they dont want you to use it on the dragon...

also... the unmoored world.... is the real world.... the elder mentions how the world we're living in is an illusion and all.... when you use the godsbane you dispel the illusion and see the world on the brink of destruction.... which also shows buildings that are around that were in the first game.... like as in the exact same locations if you put the maps overlapping each other.... ancient battlegrounds and bluemoon tower for instance are in their exact spots as in first game..... the game even has a different title screen when you reach unmoored world... before unmoored world title screen says "dragons dogma".... when your in unmoored world it says "dragons dogma 2".... like a hint that the unmoored world is just a future version of the first game making it "2"...

Disa's motivations make sense. Phaseus isn't even a citizen of Vermund, however. The Sovran doesn't even rule the world, they just rule Vermund.

Furthermore, the Mad Sovran is the founder of Vermund. He's not a product of Vermund's political structure revolving around the Arisen. Either he, or someone proceeding after him, put that structure in place. Disa may have believed he was a product of the political structure, but she's pretty bluntly wrong.

If Talos was supposed to be some anti-dragon measure, it's a horrible one. It pretty bluntly fails to do anything of value before your pawn uses it to take down a couple Brine Dragon things. That said, we don't really see anything other than the fact that it's trying to pursue Phaseus for some reason (rather than you).

I saw notes in the lab that explain their relationship a bit more... plus side quest from Sven shows they were in communications with each other.... basically Phaseus needed funding and such... and the stuff he was researching is well... forbidden.... so having backers in another country helps him with furthering research... but the queen doesnt even know all that he's doing behind the scenes... she just want her goals achieved.... which ultimately is the assassination of both you and the false Arisen she propped up... so that her son can become ruler instead....

the mad sovran who founded vermund is at the bottom of the seafloor that you meet that gives you the godsbane..... the hermit mentions that he was once a god that descended to the earth.... meaning he was the Seneschal before abandoning his role to live among mortals...

as for Talos.... it seems like the key thing here is it was meant as an "anti-dragon" measure.... not anti there's a whole army already there with ballistas and such conveniently placed around the path....

I think the reason it went after him is because he was trying to break the cycle... which in the case if he succeeded would control the dragon.... at that point his goals were a lot closer than yours carrying the empowered godsbane... I mean they were gonna try to summon the dragon to control him.... what were you gonna do with the godsbane?.... you had no idea where the dragon was or is.... only that one day your gonna face him....

and the rivage elder even mentions how the brine is sentient.... he said that he talked to it and how it prevents ships from sailing... keeping everyone land locked....

[Migromul]

Originally posted by Damian Ramirez:

Originally posted by Migromul:

"Fornival" is the quest I meant with the gold idol as important item. (BTW, he can provide you with two additional good items: the cloak which transferes healing to your party and the one-shot-arrow (forget the name.) )
But there is no rng at all with the quest of the gold-idol. All things on that quest are scripted, including the fall over at the start.
But Quina is also important, and much more interesting. She will give you a realy good buff item, which you can forge. The first one is a quest-iitem and only given one-time. But it's extremly good. Better as the ne'er-do-parts, you'll get later.
The wich wood is also important: Only there will you be able to get the arisens bond. And you will only get there, if you start the quina-questline.
If you don't react to Alinor, after meeting the duke, you will miss a whole dungeon.
And btw. the gold idol isn't that important. All things sold by Caxton or Madeleine can be found... And the silver-idol will also provide a lot of additional things. (And for that you need only to kill a cyclops, by accepting a blackboard-quest at the pawns guild.)
You won't get Madeleins shop in the first place, btw. If you don't do the quest for Mason after getting to Gran Soren. But loot (regardless if found or bought) tisn't all, you know...

You get nothing like that, for completing side-quests in DD II... Except access to the brothel, maybe, but that's not even a side-quest...
Although, you still can miss it, if you don't do the regarding quests like it is suppost to be, or even at all, which is possible, I think.
For example. I missed meeting Wilhelmina the first time in my second start, because I got catched by guards. But instead of letting them put me into jail, I outright just killed all that opposed me... Playing a thief at that moment. And I believe it's not even nessecary to do the quest, where you will meet Wilhelmina the second time... But both are main story-quests, not side-quests.

So my statement stands: side-quests in DDDA are not more interesting than those in DD II, but much more important.

what about the dwarf selling you OP equipment and a new form of Upgrade to weapon and armors?
The sphinx??
the maister skills???
the medusa hint on the griffind side mission?
The unique equipment around the unmoored world?
the list can go on and on since almost every sidemission have something important

The dwarf with "OP-Equipment" isn't dadicated. It sells exact the same EQ as the vendor on Vuilcan island.. even less, because I believe to rememeber he sells only weapons...
The master skills. Ok. You can miss those. (I even didn't find the master for warrior, I must admit.)
Master-quests can be considered side-quests of course. But I somehow didn't count them. (And they weren't availbale in DDDA, so not comparable in the first place.) Of course, some also have a story. But some are also just handed over... (fighter, trickster, magic archer, warfarer) as soon as you unlock the vocation or have the master at an according affinity. Although trickster has a seond task to fulfill for the masters-skill it's neither a quest nore a real chore to get it. And trickster itself isn't a quest, too, btw.
The sphinx.. I didn't meet her, yet. Same is true for the Medusa.
I also didn't reach the unmoored world, yet. And btw. You also got a lot of dedicated EQ in the post-game in DDDA, which isn't availbale sooner. (at least without BBI.) And we're talking about quests, not loot. or other things you can get without quests. (but just by finding out.)
Finding the Medusa isn't a quest. (you need to find out, instead)
Finding the sphinx isn't a quest (you need to find out, instead.)
Sure, you will get Quests from the Sphinx, once you found out. Sure you can easily miss some of the master-skills (bow, warrior, mage, Archmage) if you don't bother to search.
But those are all Quests where I consider, that you search activly for them, especially if you watched reviews.
As in DDDA, they're extremly easy missed imho. If you straight go to Gran Soren after the fight with the Hydra, you will miss the entire Quina/Selene-Questline and therefore special items.
If you ignore the camera-change to Alinore after meeting the Duke, you will miss a whole dungeon.
Both things seem unimportant first. (in comparison to additional skills,..)
You more or less can't miss Fornival, on the other hand. He will have a big exclemation-mark over his head. Sure, you also can miss that, if you ignore it, but this isn't a stealthy hint like the camera-change to Alinore or a definitly missable Chracter, because you choose another way than backtracking.

So I still think - at least most - side-quests in DDDA are more important than in DD II. But I also said, the stories of the side-quests are more interesting in DD II. The only exeption is the Quina/Selene-Questline. (and maybe the story about Alinore. But this is significantly shorter.)

Edit: and btw. You literally walk over that dwarf... And I must admit, that I was surprised of the rewards he will provide eventually. But it's only missable if you don't bother.

[Lavian]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Lavian:

Disa's motivations make sense. Phaseus isn't even a citizen of Vermund, however. The Sovran doesn't even rule the world, they just rule Vermund.

Furthermore, the Mad Sovran is the founder of Vermund. He's not a product of Vermund's political structure revolving around the Arisen. Either he, or someone proceeding after him, put that structure in place. Disa may have believed he was a product of the political structure, but she's pretty bluntly wrong.

If Talos was supposed to be some anti-dragon measure, it's a horrible one. It pretty bluntly fails to do anything of value before your pawn uses it to take down a couple Brine Dragon things. That said, we don't really see anything other than the fact that it's trying to pursue Phaseus for some reason (rather than you).

I saw notes in the lab that explain their relationship a bit more... plus side quest from Sven shows they were in communications with each other.... basically Phaseus needed funding and such... and the stuff he was researching is well... forbidden.... so having backers in another country helps him with furthering research... but the queen doesnt even know all that he's doing behind the scenes... she just want her goals achieved.... which ultimately is the assassination of both you and the false Arisen she propped up... so that her son can become ruler instead....

the mad sovran who founded vermund is at the bottom of the seafloor that you meet that gives you the godsbane..... the hermit mentions that he was once a god that descended to the earth.... meaning he was the Seneschal before abandoning his role to live among mortals...

as for Talos.... it seems like the key thing here is it was meant as an "anti-dragon" measure.... not anti there's a whole army already there with ballistas and such conveniently placed around the path....

I think the reason it went after him is because he was trying to break the cycle... which in the case if he succeeded would control the dragon.... at that point his goals were a lot closer than yours carrying the empowered godsbane... I mean they were gonna try to summon the dragon to control him.... what were you gonna do with the godsbane?.... you had no idea where the dragon was or is.... only that one day your gonna face him....

and the rivage elder even mentions how the brine is sentient.... he said that he talked to it and how it prevents ships from sailing... keeping everyone land locked....

Everyone wants to break the cycle though. The Mad Sovran wants to break the cycle, the Dragon says it wants to end the cycle. The Pathfinder says you shouldn't end the cycle, but then goes out of his way to give you every opportunity to end the cycle, including rewinding time to the moment where you can do so.

Furthermore, what makes you (or at least Talos) think Phaseus was an actual threat to the cycle? He summons a Lesser Dragon and starts celebrating (even after you just killed the False Sovran), as if he's ended the cycle right then and there. Shouldn't he be worried about that you just stabbed (or whatever) the False Sovran to death if the False Sovran was necessary for his plan? Then his pet Lesser Dragon literally gets immediately stomped by that actual Dragon, which is somehow your fault (according to Phaseus), showing just how pathetic of an attempt it was in the first place.

And yes, the Mad Sovran is both the Seneschal and founder of Vermund. This is part of the issue with the story. How do you continue the cycle without killing him? Every time an Arisen has tried to do so, he's instead defeated them in combat and shattered their souls using Godsbane (which I assume stops them from reincarnating as the Dragon, which would normally happen when defeated by the Seneschal after killing the Dragon, but that's not explicitly stated). Shouldn't you have to go challenge him to retake the duties of Seneschal and properly take the mantle as steward of the cycle going forward? Instead you're just king of Vermund in the normal ending, which seems pretty meaningless in regards to the cycle.

And the actual dragon would probably ♥♥♥♥ all over Talos. Talos works fine against smaller stuff, like the Brine dragons it faces off against, where it can literally grasp them in a single hand, but the actual Dragon is much larger and much more formidable.