Lore issue

[Usagi-chan]

We already kinda knew that from the first game but now it's pretty clear.

It seems, if I understand well, that even if an Arisen fail to defeat the dragon, the dragon will disapear anyway ? So there is no difference about winning or losing against it ?

+ how can there be so much former arisens in this game ? I count at least 6 of them. Are arisen still immortals even if their dragons disappear ?

How can an Arisen fail to defeat his dragon AND still be alive ?

[gotaa]

Originally posted by SadPlatty©:

Originally posted by Laan:

But how can the cycle continue in DD1 when there are no Seneschal anymore ? No Seneschal = no dragon = no arisen

Because your original Arisen is the Seneschal - if you play online through the game 2x, your first character is the boss of your second run, and they have your pawn with them.

The first time you fight the Seneschal in NG (don't think the cut-scene plays in NG+ runs, like how the intro with you as the king is a one-time deal), he even removes the Godsbane from his torso, so you finish the game by putting it in yours, hence the cycle never ends.

This was always so awkward in my runs because I never changed the appearance of my character or my pawn, so I always fought myself at the end.

[Devitancotia]

Originally posted by GetUrAssToMars:

well if he took the throne why would arisen go to challenge him? That's the one dead giveaway (atleast to me) since he seems to be responsible for the shards of arisen souls that wash up on the coast that are used to create the gods way.


I think he is a seneschal gone wrong and the Pathfinder is the next level up in management called in the keep things in control.

That did explained. But yee only in brief dialog. He is gone mad, aka 'the mad arisen', from knowing the meaning of existence of pathfinder. probably like we the player at the throne ending And start to cutting random people down. So in a sense become a dragon I guess?

And then 'the watching one' sends an arisen, and sealed him at there.

[White Rider]

Originally posted by GetUrAssToMars:

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

I think there is some new plot elements in DD2. So Pathfinder is clearly the brine
but also acting like the role of senechal? The mad king is the arisen took the throne but being laugh at by Pathfinder like we would've being.

well if he took the throne why would arisen go to challenge him? That's the one dead giveaway (atleast to me) since he seems to be responsible for the shards of arisen souls that wash up on the coast that are used to create the gods way.


I think he is a seneschal gone wrong and the Pathfinder is the next level up in management called in the keep things in control.

That's exactly what he is.
It's implicitely stated that he was the seneschal.

The Rivage Elder in Harve tells you his story.
Rathais was tasked with watching over the world (Senseschal's job) but got bored and wanted more so he essentially broke the natural order of the cycle and more or less quit.
Came down, made the kingdom of Vermund, eventually went into seclusion.

The Pathfinder seems to be something else entirely, though Rathais calls him the watcher. It's possible the Pathfinder is simply holding the role of Seneschal until either A Rathais comes to his senses, or B, the Pathfinder can get a strong enough Arisen to defeat Rathais.

[Devitancotia]

Originally posted by White Rider:

That's exactly what he is.
It's implicitely stated that he was the seneschal.

The Rivage Elder in Harve tells you his story.
Rathais was tasked with watching over the world (Senseschal's job) but got bored and wanted more so he essentially broke the natural order of the cycle and more or less quit.
Came down, made the kingdom of Vermund, eventually went into seclusion.

The Pathfinder seems to be something else entirely, though Rathais calls him the watcher. It's possible the Pathfinder is simply holding the role of Seneschal until either A Rathais comes to his senses, or B, the Pathfinder can get a strong enough Arisen to defeat Rathais.

That is true the Rivage Elder said that, which is a point I found conflicting. Because then, Rathais himself explains in dialog, says he ruled over the world, then realized that 'all my glorious are but nothing for someone watching'. And the statue shows he did, only in Vermund the face or head is being destroyed from recognizing.

And he said he was sealed by an arisen. I find this conflicting to what the elder said. Because if he is that, knows the cycle, how come he started cutting people down? He was sealed for that. And the saying of came down is weird too.

[White Rider]

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

Originally posted by White Rider:

That's exactly what he is.
It's implicitely stated that he was the seneschal.

The Rivage Elder in Harve tells you his story.
Rathais was tasked with watching over the world (Senseschal's job) but got bored and wanted more so he essentially broke the natural order of the cycle and more or less quit.
Came down, made the kingdom of Vermund, eventually went into seclusion.

The Pathfinder seems to be something else entirely, though Rathais calls him the watcher. It's possible the Pathfinder is simply holding the role of Seneschal until either A Rathais comes to his senses, or B, the Pathfinder can get a strong enough Arisen to defeat Rathais.

That is true, which is a point I found conflicting. Because then, Rathais himself explains in dialog, says he ruled over the world, then realized that 'all my glorious are but nothing for someone watching'. And the statue shows he did, only in Vermund the face or head is being destroyed from recognizing.

But then he said he was sealed by an arisen tho. I find this conflicting to what the elder said. Because if he is that, knows the cycle, how come he started cutting people down? And the saying of came down is weird too.

What does the Sensechal do?

They watch the world, test Arisen, turn Arisen into dragons if they fail to beat them, and their soul forms the godsbane that is used to relinquish them of their duty.

Rathais basically fulfills all of that criteria except for turning arisen into dragons.

He watched the world, but then got bored.

Pathfinder does keep sending Arisen to him to try and kill him, but he's destroyed them all so far.

He uses what's left of his soul to form the godsbane for us.

[Devitancotia]

Originally posted by White Rider:

Rathais basically fulfills all of that criteria except for turning arisen into dragons.

He watched the world, but then got bored.

Pathfinder does keep sending Arisen to him to try and kill him, but he's destroyed them all so far.

Tho the reason he 'has' to watch the world is because he 'gone mad' by cutting normal people down. The point I found not connect is about the founding of his kingdom. He only found out the thing after he ruled over the world, this line 'all my glorious are but noting for the one watching' like that.

And then he said he is sealed by an arisen there. As to why other arisen still try to kill him is not clear.

I think more DD2 doesn't have an actual one, but Pathfinder pass on some of it.

[Anulbag]

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

Originally posted by White Rider:

Rathais basically fulfills all of that criteria except for turning arisen into dragons.

He watched the world, but then got bored.

Pathfinder does keep sending Arisen to him to try and kill him, but he's destroyed them all so far.

Tho the reason he 'has' to watch the world is because he 'gone mad' by cutting normal people down. The point I found not connect is about the founding of his kingdom. He only found out the thing after he ruled over the world, this line 'all my glorious are but noting for the one watching' like that.

And then he said he is sealed by an arisen there. As to why other arisen still try to kill him is not clear.

iam not really a lore junkie but heres my take:
Rathias was/is the Senechal but decided to go down and take over the world, and as the Senechal, Arisens will come to fight him to take his place. he started to cut random normal people down becuse he got paranoid about who the Arisen is.

The Pathfinder could be the one responsible for making sure the cycle continues, and the line 'all my glorious are but nothing for the one watching' could be that all that he has done was for nothing because it will be taken away as the cycle begins anew.

[White Rider]

Originally posted by Anulbag:

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

Tho the reason he 'has' to watch the world is because he 'gone mad' by cutting normal people down. The point I found not connect is about the founding of his kingdom. He only found out the thing after he ruled over the world, this line 'all my glorious are but noting for the one watching' like that.

And then he said he is sealed by an arisen there. As to why other arisen still try to kill him is not clear.

iam not really a lore junkie but heres my take:
Rathias was/is the Senechal but decided to go down and take over the world, and as the Senechal, Arisens will come to fight him to take his place. he started to cut random normal people down becuse he got paranoid about who the Arisen is.

The Pathfinder could be the one responsible for making sure the cycle continues, and the line 'all my glorious are but nothing for the one watching' could be that all that he has done was for nothing because it will be taken away as the cycle begins anew.

That's pretty much my take too.

The pathfinder seems to be something higher than the seneschal, and is trying to set things back in order while Rathais is just being stubborn and paranoid.

PF has to either be some sort of higher being, or something else acting as a substitute seneschal while Rathais is being a wank

[Devitancotia]

Originally posted by Anulbag:

iam not really a lore junkie but heres my take:
Rathias was/is the Senechal but decided to go down and take over the world, and as the Senechal, Arisens will come to fight him to take his place. he started to cut random normal people down becuse he got paranoid about who the Arisen is.

The Pathfinder could be the one responsible for making sure the cycle continues, and the line 'all my glorious are but nothing for the one watching' could be that all that he has done was for nothing because it will be taken away as the cycle begins anew.

This is kind of hard to define for Sensechal. But I think we can say that Sensechal is worldforged and watch over the world, effectively the god, the will that sustain the world.
What I found conflicting is that, the Rivage Elder said "he came down to found the kingdom." But he himself said "ruled over the world to find all my glorious are for naught for someone watching."

He is sitting in a similar chair as in DD1/DDDA, but he is sealed there by an arisen, for he found out the truth and starting killing everyone around him.

I don't know, he is only aware after he ruled over the world, and then end up there.

We do know Pathfinder is the brine, and mentioned as worldforged, while acting as a god. So my theory is he is effectively Sensechal, while Rathais is the ancient arisen that took the throne and ruled over the world, then find out the Pathfinder, like we player did in throne ending. So he starting cutting people down, being called 'mad arisen', and then sealed there by another arisen.

[Anulbag]

Originally posted by White Rider:

Originally posted by Anulbag:

iam not really a lore junkie but heres my take:
Rathias was/is the Senechal but decided to go down and take over the world, and as the Senechal, Arisens will come to fight him to take his place. he started to cut random normal people down becuse he got paranoid about who the Arisen is.

The Pathfinder could be the one responsible for making sure the cycle continues, and the line 'all my glorious are but nothing for the one watching' could be that all that he has done was for nothing because it will be taken away as the cycle begins anew.

That's pretty much my take too.

The pathfinder seems to be something higher than the seneschal, and is trying to set things back in order while Rathais is just being stubborn and paranoid.

PF has to either be some sort of higher being, or something else acting as a substitute seneschal while Rathais is being a wank

my guess would be that either PF is the Arisen that sealed away Rathias and therefore is now the Senechal or PF is Rathias pawn. Kind of a long shot since i have no idea what happens to the pawn when an Arisen becomes Senechal.

All i remember is the pawn being with the senechal but no mention of them having any special role or anything.

[Devitancotia]

Originally posted by Anulbag:

my guess would be that either PF is the Arisen that sealed away Rathias and therefore is now the Senechal or PF is Rathias pawn. Kind of a long shot since i have no idea what happens to the pawn when an Arisen becomes Senechal.

All i remember is the pawn being with the senechal but no mention of them having any special role or anything.

Since you mentioned it, I just realized there are no mention about any pawn of previous arisens.

Like, in DD1/DDDA, dragonforged has his pawn by his side.

[Usagi-chan]

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

Originally posted by Anulbag:

my guess would be that either PF is the Arisen that sealed away Rathias and therefore is now the Senechal or PF is Rathias pawn. Kind of a long shot since i have no idea what happens to the pawn when an Arisen becomes Senechal.

All i remember is the pawn being with the senechal but no mention of them having any special role or anything.

Since you mentioned it, I just realized there are no mention about any pawn of previous arisens.

Like, in DD1/DDDA, dragonforged has his pawn by his side.

Indeed ! But the duke didnt, tho !

[Toltage]

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

Originally posted by Anulbag:

my guess would be that either PF is the Arisen that sealed away Rathias and therefore is now the Senechal or PF is Rathias pawn. Kind of a long shot since i have no idea what happens to the pawn when an Arisen becomes Senechal.

All i remember is the pawn being with the senechal but no mention of them having any special role or anything.

Since you mentioned it, I just realized there are no mention about any pawn of previous arisens.

I would imagine they return straight to the rift. I doubt the Pathfinder would be his pawn since Rothias acts like it's been the same "Watcher" ever since his time ruling, sending multiple Arisen to try and end him even after the sealing.

[Dinkleberg]

Originally posted by Dareth:

Originally posted by gotaa:

Been wondering that too, where is the Senechal? Is it the Pathfinder?

for Pathfinder question check out True Ending.
DD2 is a reboot, so there is no point in using knowledge from DD/DDA, because in DD2 we have Dragons Dogma -> Dragon Dogma2.

Dragons Dogma 2 is not a reboot, i don't know who told you this but it's not true. The directior himself said that Dragons Dogma 2 plays in a parallel world.

[Carmah]

Originally posted by Devitancotia:

For DD2, it was mentioned in brief dialog. The oracle old lady, Luz said they all giveup/runaway, for each their reasons.

What is known is only they didn't defeat the dragon.

But why would you simply run away and go into hiding when you can become ruler? If you run away, you're giving up your beloved anyway so why not take the deal?

That said, I've never understood the lore about this anyways. Haven't played the second game and won't anytime soon due to current cost, etc. But played the crap out of the first game (on gog in case anyone goes to my profile to look at time played) and the lore bugs me everytime.

In the first game, the witch ran away with her pawn. The dragonforged ran away with his. Barroch ran away by himself to BBI. The Duke was the only one to run away by taking the deal to become ruler until our Arisen came along.
I imagine all but the "witch" faced Grigori since she was the only one dead (the people of her time must not have known her to be arisen since she's feared and lives in seclusion. But then why isn't the dragonforged feared in the same way?). And maybe Barroch is in a place where the dragon's power can't reach so he lives forever no matter what happens to his dragon. I never figured out if Olra was a pawn, arisen or normie whose body was hijacked by the ghost of an arisen/pawn.

But with the dragonforged and Duke having their hearts taken by Grigori, DF can be seen only by other arisens yet everyone knows he is there hiding with his creepy pawn. The Duke on the other hand is seen by everybody and loved by almost everybody. Nobody questions why he doesn't age despite centuries of arisen/dragon stories that have been passed down in that world and no one ever mentioning the arisen doesn't age after "killing" the dragon to become ruler.

I've tried to look at via Grigori's timeline and it's even more confusing...

Savan killed the previous dragon, faced and killed the previous Seneschal and became one himself.
There was no dragon or arisen or Duke in the world now so he created a dragon from thin air, who in turn wrecked havoc on a town(s) to find an arisen. Multiple times perhaps. Eventually an arisen was strong enough to kill that dragon but not Savan so that arisen was reborn as Greg.
During all this time there was a random unknown ruler in Gransys.

Greg wrecked havoc on a town, turned the dragonforged into arisen but once they faced each other on the mountain, DF was offered a deal, couldn't decide, got scared and just ran away with his pawn, leaving his beloved with Greg to do whatever with.
The people of his time never found out what happened to DF because Greg came around again years or decades or centuries later (who knows really) and made a new arisen out of the Duke. He went to face Greg on the mountain, got offered a deal and accepted. This immediately killed whoever the current ruler of Gransys was, put the Duke on the throne and the people rejoiced and accepted this because the dragon was "dead" and wouldn't wreck havoc on their towns anymore.
Only for Greg to come back years or decades or centuries later to find our arisen. I assume if there was any arisen between the Duke and us, they died to Greg and never became a dragon, seneschal or dragonforged. They died and simply removed from the world.
We kill the dragon, kill the seneschal, Duke practically is dead and DF dies. Then we die.
No dragon. No seneschal. No Duke. No arisen. Except our pawn gets the bestowal of spirit and now becomes one of those and the cycle continues somehow thru that.

Convoluted af if I may say so. (Sorry for how long this ended up and also this being primarily about the lore from the first game).