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There are many of us here who have had this game since Gamecube or at least PS2 release and are very happy with this version. It honestly doesn't surprise me that those two creeps do what you describe here.
Devil's Advocate take: I would argue that "real fans of RE4" would love to see that the remake remains faithful to the original content, for the most part.
Side-Question: Do you suddenly have a monopoly on what qualifies someone as a "real fan"? That sounds pretty elitist and exclusionary, imho.
I would also discourage labeling anyone you disagree with as "zealots" or "creeps."
Re: Ashley:
Previously, I would have said I preferred the Remake version as an improvement over the original, due to her being more competent, etc. And I think that's the surface explanation a lot of people would give.
However, once I actually thought about it more, I would have to change my mind to the original, and here's why:
To start, is it really fair to expect a young, 20-year old woman with basically no combat experience to be level-headed and calm in what's essentially a nightmarish hell? Previously (don't recall if it was this discussion or another), I had made the argument of, "Rebecca was only 18 in Zero and Claire was also a 20-something college student."
Those statements still hold true, but we can also assume that Rebecca had had some level of combat and firearms experience before joining S.T.A.R.S., and Claire of course had been trained by Chris (another S.T.A.R.S. member).
It's also not exactly Ashley's fault that she hasn't trained in combat or firearms experience; she's an innocent civilian who gets swept up in something no civilian should ever be swept up in. Even a lot of her reactions in the OG are understandable, given that--it's almost more jarring to see Remake Ashley taking the concept of being implanted with a mind-controlling parasite in stride.
Meanwhile, back in the original game, Ashley is very clearly terrified as she protests, not bravely, but desperately:
"I'm never turning into one of them! Never!"
But there were a couple times I just let them carry her away because she annoyed me
See above
I read some of their reviews and some of it was just pure misinformation or just going off by labeling things that they don't agree with, 'woke'. Although I did mention them being 'Zealots', I never mentioned that they were creeps, I am sure they are great human beings outside of this forum. You're putting words in my mouth.
She also has more dialogue options, helps out more, has more personality, and actually expresses emotion throughout the story while still maintaining that damsel in distress role.
You're not an invalid at 20 years old. People fight in wars at 18 my guy, both men and women. She is not a child and should understand that she is getting escorted to safety by Leon. Sure she can be a little scared as depicted in both games, and she could screw up like in both games. The devs wanted to make her errors and mess ups feel more 'real' and understandable.
Ex: Lots of people found it ridiculous and quite silly when Ashley gave Leon a bunch of attitude and pushed him away to run into an obvious trap in the castle. She should be close to Leon since a castle like that will obviously be covered with traps. I mean, she just stood there in the trap itself and got captured upon the wall like a complete idiot. Leon just tried to check up on Ashley after coughing up blood in the original and she acted like a complete brat ignoring all of Leon's commands. Her apologizing later doesn't make this scenario any less stupid.
Ex2: In the remake, Ashley constantly showed signs of the parasite developing within her body and you could see bloodshot eyes and black veins within the character model. It wasn't until the Castle where she reacted more violently and past out, making the parasite take complete control when she woke up. Remember in the OG when Leon was possessed for a moment and tried to strangle the ♥♥♥♥ out of Ada? This scenario is kinda similar. She grabbed Leon's knife and stabbed him in the hand with it while under the control of the parasite and Leon had to restrain her until it wore off. After gaining control, she was shocked at what she did to Leon and ran away upset and confused. She, like the original apologized while in complete tears and said that she wasn't herself after the parasite took over and was in complete disarray.
I personally think that the remake version is far more believable and understandable, but to each their own.
Rebecca still has her moments of 'damsel in distress', especially in RE1R. She cries when she finds out that one of her comrades died from a shark (forgot the dude's name). Claire I'm not surprised can hold her own.
I find it hard to believe that she hasn't had maybe some form of firearms training since she is the U.S. president's daughter after all. She is still just as innocent as the original, she just helps out more throughout the story and this doesn't give her a 'strong waman' makeover. She even mentions about a carnival experience while in the shooting range with Leon. It doesn't take a STARS member to pull a damn trigger or put a mag into a gun my guy. Your average cracker off the street can operate a handgun with ease. Also why does the OG Ashley supplex things twice her size then if she has no combat experience? (I know it was a bug for the GC version only, but it is kept in the RE4 tweaks mod so I consider it now to be a part of the game). Ashley was implanted in both games, but the remake portrays the effects and symptoms of the parasite better than the OG imo.
Both Ashley's are terrified, but my opinion is that the remake Ashley does a much better job in expressing her fears and emotion both by her tone voice, and actions throughout the remake. I just couldn't take the OG Ashley seriously since she is the voice actress of Sandy Cheeks from Spongebob XD. The only thing that OG Ashley protests in is calling out Luis for mentioning her 'ballistics' at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0meEJd6V6A8
old ada voice better even resident evil 2 remake voice better this one she mystery
leon voice fine
I like how good old Ashley sticks close to you in OG and doesn't move all over the place like Remake Ashley when she is trying to get attacked or picked up. I also like how old Ashley has more hiding places (despite them being a dumpster) so I don't have to worry about her and worry more about the situation at hand.
Remake Ashley doesn't need to be caught from a ledge all the time which was redundant in the OG. Remake Ashley feels like she contributes a lot more to the game and Leon such as stunning the Plagas Knights.
As far as story and personality:
Hands down, Remake Ashley takes it. Which makes sense since Capcom had more time to develop all the characters in the game.
Remake Ashley is better overall but Remake Ashley can get annoying with her quips when I get hit (same as Luis) and when she moves all over the place like she drank 10 Red Bulls.
Labels like "true/fake fan" come from people's inability to entertain others' opinion on the Internet. If being a true fan implies accepting any product of corporate decisionmaking without voicing criticism - then I'm probably not a true fan. It is also wrong to describe fans as "people who want the game to succeed" - that would be Capcom's accountants.
You can be a passionate fan and give the game the most harsh of criticisms - just because you care enough.
We are throwing terms around but we never actually established them. Crying is not a sign of a damsel in distress, it's a sign of a human being. Military training and experience and yadda yadda does not turn a character into a robot.
When I talked about the original Ashley being a damsel in distress throughout the game - what I mean by that is she's consistently reliant on Leon to save her - or to rephrase, she won't save herself. OG Ashley is self-aware of her role in this relationship and is infected with Plaga, not feminism.
Remake Ashley is damsel in distress 1/3 into the game, Skyrim follower 2/3 into the game, and secondary protagonist the last third into the game.
Her island segment her reliance on Leon's basically not there anymore. If we are not there to catch her at wrecking ball - she jumps herself. This transformation from "I just wanna go home" to "I wanna be an agent" takes place over a few hours. Whether it's Capcom pulling a "strong female character" a-la RE2make's Claire on her or it's merely a clumsy attempt at character development it feels jarring and out of place.
In the original, Leon is Ashley's savior. In the remake, he's her Uber driver taking her home after nightclub.
I agree. I've dealt with this many times for liking the OG Re4.
I also agree. I was just going off on how I can critique a game and still like it at the same time.
I forgot to mention that she does cower in a corner from a hunter in Chris' campaign. What I meant to say is that she goes through a lot of hardship in the RE1R and is kinda useless in that game compared to her being ruthless in RE0.
Remake Ashley is just as dependent on Leon as the original one, she is just more supportive throughout. I don't think she is getting out of that whole fiasco in Spain anymore than the original could. Idk why you pulled 'feminism' from this trying to insert politics into this.
It's called she is developing as a character, learning to trust Leon more and more as time goes by and is less of a drone like in the original. Idek what you are implying by 'Skyrim follower', but please elaborate.
Maybe catch her so she doesn't have to do it herself? She doesn't need Leon to jump 10 feet off a platform anyway, proving she's less useless than in the original. Again with the 'strong female character' crap XD. I guess when a woman helps out more in one game than in a previous game it is now 'woke' or they're trying to pull off a 'strong female character' mindset. I agree that Claire was always a strong female character, and do agree that Claire was better in earlier installments like CV or RE2 original. I was not a fan of the constant cursing from Claire either in the remake having a shallow attempt in making her tough. For Ashley being an 'agent', have you ever heard of the phrase facetious? The "I wanna be an agent" line doesn't imply that she wants to be an actual agent right off the bat, but more like joking around with Leon as they slowly go up the shaft, engaging in small-talk.
Leon is Ashley's savior in both games obviously, again, Idk where you pulled that analogy from.
To each their own though.
If there is misinformation, then call it out and make your case.
Re: "creeps," I apologize for the lack of clarity--I wasn't putting words in your mouth (at least not deliberately), but was also including ToveriJuri in that particular response.
Neither is OG Ashley.
This is an ageist argument, as is anything that targets a character's age specifically, versus their individual experiences and personalities.
I'd also be willing to bet that 18-year old soldiers are hardly immune to trauma from war--soldiers twice or even thrice their age certainly aren't.
That's actually the scene I was referring to primarily, which I don't think is stupid at all.
I think it's a very understandably-human reaction to not just coughing up blood, but having that symptom and knowing exactly what it means (she's already been told by both Luis and Saddler that she's got a mind-controlling parasite getting ready to hatch inside her). It's literally an instant, snap-reaction in a moment of fear and panic.
I would have find it more jarring if she suddenly put on a show of bravado like, "Yup. Coughed up blood. Got a parasite in me ready to eat my brain, everything's good here."
I would say the big criticism of that scene comes from an unrealistic expectation for someone like Ashley in her situation--as previously stated, she's not Claire Redfield. She hasn't been schooled in combat and handling trauma.
Going back to your nice little "Even 18-year olds get sent off to war" (again, ageist) argument: Ashley isn't a soldier. She's a civilian.
Proving once again that the only real "improvement" over the original is graphically.
Leon trying to strangle Ada while under the influence of the parasite is shown to take place very late in the game. This is a hugely important point that shows how far along the Plaga's growth is that Leon can now be controlled to this extent--another great scene is where Saddler outright mind-controls Ashley and her eyes glow red while Leon is forced to his knees.
Which leads me again to believe that the Remake scene with Ashley was really just done to still have Saddler maintain a presence, albeit behind the scenes, because another great disappointment (for me personally, anyway) is how they removed a lot of the cat-and-mouse near-escape encounters in the Remake.
That's a bit of a stretch to assume that because your father is in politics, you somehow must have had firearms training.
No, but it probably does for them to be competent at it.
Pulling a trigger is easy.
Actually hitting something takes experience.
You have to be trolling here, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure why you would consider something to be canon when you're fully aware that it was a bug in the game and still only exists as a mod.
Type-casting the VA, got it.
By that logic, people who hated Lily Gao's performance in this game are even more qualified to do so, given that she portrayed the exact same character in another piece of media.
Most of the other things (not really misinformation but just dumb takes) are just whining about change, feminism, politics, and more crappy takes about the game being downgraded from the OG because it's overall harder than the OG.
This part is not really misinformation, but the review also mentions 'self-plagiarizing'. How do you self-plagiarize? The definition of plagiarism is when material from another source is presented as one's own. This is a remake, of course it is going to be similar.
You're good
Believe me, she is an invalid in the OG.
This was used to illustrate that people younger than her can hold their own. People younger than her can go through more crap than Ashley.
She knew she was in hostile territory. She got told about the parasites taking control over their minds before by Saddler in the church which was way before that point in the castle, why didn't she freak out then? Was it the blood that made her freak out? She coughed up blood before. Luis asked both Leon and Ashley if they coughed up blood before that incident occurred and they both said, 'yes', indicating this happened before. She should be more aware of her surroundings, knowing she is in hostile territory and not act like a brat in those kinds of situations and just listen to Leon. That whole situation could've been avoided. She acts like a damn child.
First of all, the parasite is not in the brain as depicted at the very end of the game when they remove the parasites, second of all, noone is saying she shouldn't be scared, but the way it was portrayed was just poorly done and unbelievable imho. Also why you gotta be so cocky? Shinji Mikami himself even said that he wanted a better story for RE4.
The stupidest thing about that part was when she just stood there on the wall directly in the trap and then gets snatched by said trap and then we had to go find her for the next 3 levels until 3-4.
No sh!t, this was just a demonstration of how people younger than her can hold their own and be more mature than her. Probably not the best analogy in the world, but it's something. Never said she should be a soldier (She'll never qualify anyway).
They could've put something resembling growth of the parasite, I mean it was in the cutscenes, the game ain't that old so don't use age as an excuse, they could've put something there that resembles growth of the parasite in both Leon and Ashley just like the remake. Remember later on in the game when the Merchant had glowing red eyes. He may have been infected as well.
Ashley had this happen as well, but it was earlier on. Since Leon has a bigger build to him, the parasite can take longer to fully catch on to Leon then of Ashley, who is much smaller physically. Also, when she got controlled by Saddler in the OG, she didn't even try to put up a fight, she just took it which was kinda sad.
She was already showing signs of coughing up blood and feeling dreary before that happened so it didn't occur just for Saddler to maintain a presence in the game.
That was kinda just a stereotype I put out there for us Americans, my bad.
I agree it takes practice to get good at shooting things, but you gotta look at the situation. When sh!t hits the fan, anyone will be willing to use a gun no matter their experience level to defend themselves.
OG Ashley fans always applaud her for doing this and even try to use this as a valid argument when comparing the two Ashleys together, even though it is not a part of the game. So yeah I put that out there.
When someone sounds and looks like a damn mouse, it is kinda hard to take them seriously. Oh and don't even get me started on Ada.