Misasa the ultimate Sword Master?

[Wenju]

*Spoiler Alert* (don't wanna tag the whole post)

So i've been struggling with whom i wanna upgrade to Sword Master. The stats gains are not that great (compared to monk), too much focus on Dex. Dont wanna turn my paladins into it, nor my Knights and to be honest i dont use Guardian (stats gains are just too low)
So the natural selection was monk.... but like i mention, losing the "A" STR upgrade to "B", just feels like a waste.
But what if i had a character with a passive that turns DEX into PAB... Now the DEX gain feels like is adding value.

I am crazy? is she that much better with a bow or daggers in her hands? Besides accuracy, hit and dodge, does Dex actually helps the damage of any class?
Feels like i want a archer with 20 STR 30 DEX over one with 10 STR and 40DEX.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by Wenju:

But what if i had a character with a passive that turns DEX into PAB... Now the DEX gain feels like is adding value.

I am crazy? is she that much better with a bow or daggers in her hands?
Feels like i want a archer with 20 STR 30 DEX over one with 10 STR and 40DEX.

Yeah, Misasa makes a great swordsmaster thanks to her unique skill.

Though note that it would work even if she was a Dragon Knight using a Greatsword. She'd still get bonus damage from DEX.

Besides accuracy, hit and dodge, does Dex actually helps the damage of any class?

It does not. I mean, accuracy, dodge and let's not forget initiative is already quite a lot of things, making DEX the third most important stat for most classes.

However, there IS an artifact in the late game that lets you substitute DEX for STR for ANY character.

And yes, it stacks with Misasa's special skill. So going all-in on DEX for her is a very good idea.

Bottom line: She's just that good.

but like i mention, losing the "A" STR upgrade to "B", just feels like a waste.

One note: Confusing Japanese/American letter grades aside (Why the hell is "S" better than "A?") the difference in actual values between A and B isn't that big. 75 vs. 90, only 15% growth.

The difference between B and C is bigger (25%) and between C and D biggest of all. (30%.) A to S meanwhile gains 20%.

So if we assume average or static stat growth, spending 20 levels (i.e. the entire game after the class unlocks) as a Monk instead of an Assassin gets you... 3 extra points of strength. Which is not nothing, but hardly the end of the world either. And in return the Assassin gains 3 extra DEX and WP, which is not be be sniffed at either. (And loses 4 EN, but who cares.)

In comparison, getting the armwrestling random event for her would give you 8 points of STR extra.

[Wenju]

20% is not just 3 points at the end of the game. If you go by statistics alone should be more. (of course, depends on how soon you can upgrade the class)
But even so, having a 180% grow and having a 200% and 220% is very different.
One you have that feeling that you might "lose" a point. So you might wanna reroll to try to guarantee that important attribute.
The 200% is like, is a start I will not worry at all about in the reroll choice, since it's guaranteed.
As for 220% you can get "lucky", you might not reroll if you get that extra point, even if you fail to get a different point somewhere.

Guess what I'm trying to say, you have to account the reroll try on your math on start grow.


But that's for the tip and info about her and that late item. Appreciate

[Letterit]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Besides accuracy, hit and dodge, does Dex actually helps the damage of any class?

It does not. I mean, accuracy, dodge and let's not forget initiative is already quite a lot of things, making DEX the third most important stat for most classes.

Typical problem of attributes systems, and some system did gives abilities of damage from DEX additionally to many other similar elements than in OAG, they only ended in a half broken system, and some vaguely balanced it somehow through restrictive equipment for characters using DEX for damages.

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

the difference in actual values between A and B isn't that big. 75 vs. 90, only 15% growth.

With modified rules (no RNG) and if the no RNG rules mean a more or less exact value difference of 15% ok.

But with default rules as Wenju explained already, it's not that simple.

If we just take 90% and 75% so a character without grow bonus, there's a huge difference between both. There's 10% chance of fail versus 25% chance of fail, it's not only more than the double but with reroll 90% is an ok bet and 75% is hardly a wise bet.

And then most characters don't have the base grow for many attributes so each case is different, for example 100% and 110% won't be much different, even 120% is a struggle to get better than 100%.

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

So if we assume average or static stat growth, spending 20 levels (i.e. the entire game after the class unlocks) as a Monk instead of an Assassin gets you... 3 extra points of strength. Which is not nothing, but hardly the end of the world either. And in return the Assassin gains 3 extra DEX and WP, which is not be be sniffed at either. (And loses 4 EN, but who cares.)

Mmm something looks wrong, Monk and Assassin get same Will Points grow, Assassin is better than Monk only for DEX and INT, when Monk better for STR, WIS and END.

I think there's no match, even if all have a questionable utility in the context, WIS+END shouod be better than INT for Assassin/Ranger.

And knowing that STR is the damage source past Misasa case, Monk grow could be an excellent option for an Assassin, and even more for a Ranger.

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

In comparison, getting the armwrestling random event for her would give you 8 points of STR extra.

That event is a lot sooner than when you get Misasa. And for having Misasa succeed it, the chance is very low.

EDIT:
In case it's not clear, Misasa specific design isn't a good design or for giving an OP character option to player, give everything to DEX isn't right, OAG rules choice around DEX and STR seems making more sense and balance.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by Wenju:

20% is not just 3 points at the end of the game. If you go by statistics alone should be more. (of course, depends on how soon you can upgrade the class)

The difference is only 15%, so it is indeed 3 points. (20 * 15 = 300% = 3 points of strength.)

But even so, having a 180% grow and having a 200% and 220% is very different.
One you have that feeling that you might "lose" a point. So you might wanna reroll to try to guarantee that important attribute.

That's why I said "assuming static growth or average rolls."

It's true that break points when you re-roll can change the odds, but that depends on way too many factors. Could be that it takes you from 180% growth to 195% growth, which in practice makes almost no difference as you would re-roll whenever you only get 1 point.

But I play with static growth, so thankfully I don't need to worry about that.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by Letterit:

Mmm something looks wrong, Monk and Assassin get same Will Points grow, Assassin is better than Monk only for DEX and INT, when Monk better for STR, WIS and END.

Are you sure? In my game, Assassin and Monk both have a C in INT growth, Monk has a B in WP growth and Assassin has an A.

Edit in reply to edit:

Originally posted by Letterit:

Originally posted by Iguana:

In comparison, getting the armwrestling random event for her would give you 8 points of STR extra.

That event is a lot sooner than when you get Misasa. And for having Misasa succeed it, the chance is very low.

The event repeats, and you can re-roll, so you can easily get it on Misasa.

[Letterit]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Originally posted by Letterit:

Mmm something looks wrong, Monk and Assassin get same Will Points grow, Assassin is better than Monk only for DEX and INT, when Monk better for STR, WIS and END.

Are you sure? In my game, Assassin and Monk both have a C in INT growth, Monk has a B in WP growth and Assassin has an A.

Damit I don't use a right reference lol (never played much any Assassin so didn't bother check in game).

Ok DEX and WIL versus STR END and WIS, I agree it's not so clearly better to use Monk grow for an Assassin.

And with the with default rules (RNG and double roll for attributes grow) it's more complicate and depends of grows bonus/malus, and a Monk grow could be better for an Assassin, but it's heavy and cost is high in long term but it's possible for one character or two.

[Letterit]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Originally posted by Letterit:

That event is a lot sooner than when you get Misasa. And for having Misasa succeed it, the chance is very low.

The event repeats, and you can re-roll, so you can easily get it on Misasa.

You need fire the adventurer? I never had it again.

But it's useless for Misasa, and if really this event is best used with Assassin, there's some Assassin OP holes exploit behind. Anyway it seems that it's more Daryl the best Assassin thanks to ability to have 100% hit.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by Letterit:

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

The event repeats, and you can re-roll, so you can easily get it on Misasa.

You need fire the adventurer? I never had it again.

Nah, it just repeats after a few days. It's random of course. So you won't see it that often. But you can get the trait on all your adventurers if you want.

You can even keep repeating it afterwards, adventurers that already have the trait get +1 strength instead.

(Though you're right that it doesn't really benefit Misasa if you go for the pure DEX build. And I'd agree that Daryl works well as an assassin, or better yet Reaper. His Lone Wolf trait works really well with stealth, especially if you get the ultimate ability of the Reaper.)

[Letterit]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Originally posted by Letterit:

You need fire the adventurer? I never had it again.

Nah, it just repeats after a few days. It's random of course. So you won't see it that often. But you can get the trait on all your adventurers if you want.

You can even keep repeating it afterwards, adventurers that already have the trait get +1 strength instead.

Rare or not it's weird I didn't get it after all the grinding I did after have get it once probably during chapter 2, now at end of chapter 4.

Has it specific triggers happening more often? Cave? Number of stars?

That said I continue play with multiple parties so there's a good chance I get it again and now for a character I don't care that much.

[Rubidium]

Originally posted by Letterit:

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Nah, it just repeats after a few days. It's random of course. So you won't see it that often. But you can get the trait on all your adventurers if you want.

You can even keep repeating it afterwards, adventurers that already have the trait get +1 strength instead.

Rare or not it's weird I didn't get it after all the grinding I did after have get it once probably during chapter 2, now at end of chapter 4.

Has it specific triggers happening more often? Cave? Number of stars?

That said I continue play with multiple parties so there's a good chance I get it again and now for a character I don't care that much.

It's Forest only, but can be any star level.

[Wenju]

About that event, do you have to have a character with the trait strong in party?
Sometimes i go to the florets 4 stars or above and mostly i find 2 events. but rarely just 1, am i not looking hard enough or sometimes is just 1 event?

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by Wenju:

About that event, do you have to have a character with the trait strong in party?

No, the characters in your party do not matter for which events you can get.

However, if you do not have any adventurers with a high strength or the Strong trait, you cannot attempt to challenge the wrestler even if you do meet him.

(Note that you only need 1 character with sufficient strength to start the challenge. When you do, you can then switch to a character with less strength and re-roll until you win or run out of BP.)

Sometimes i go to the florets 4 stars or above and mostly i find 2 events. but rarely just 1, am i not looking hard enough or sometimes is just 1 event?

Small maps only ever have 1 event. Medium maps randomly sometimes have 1, sometimes 2. Large ones usually have 2.

[Letterit]

Still never had this event twice, I have doubts it is still repeatable after you get the special trait.

[Rubidium]

Originally posted by Letterit:

Still never had this event twice, I have doubts it is still repeatable after you get the special trait.

Which one? The sword? It doesn't give you a special trait, just a unique (and upgradable) item, and is indeed once per play-through.

The arm-wrestling? I've definitely personally gotten it multiple times in a playthrough (as noted, you can either give someone else the special trait, or if you pick someone who already has it, they get a flat +1 STR for passing the skill check; Elan got lucky twice in my most recent playthrough. giving him even more strength).

As with any generic map event, it's random but if you keep doing random quests in forests and diligently explore the entire map and check the special event markers, you will get it eventually. Besides, the forest probably has the best random events anyway, so if you don't have a reason to do something else, it's never a bad choice to do a quest there.

[Letterit]

Originally posted by Rubidium:

Originally posted by Letterit:

Still never had this event twice, I have doubts it is still repeatable after you get the special trait.

Which one? The sword? It doesn't give you a special trait, just a unique (and upgradable) item, and is indeed once per play-through.

The arm-wrestling? I've definitely personally gotten it multiple times in a playthrough (as noted, you can either give someone else the special trait, or if you pick someone who already has it, they get a flat +1 STR for passing the skill check; Elan got lucky twice in my most recent playthrough. giving him even more strength).

As with any generic map event, it's random but if you keep doing random quests in forests and diligently explore the entire map and check the special event markers, you will get it eventually. Besides, the forest probably has the best random events anyway, so if you don't have a reason to do something else, it's never a bad choice to do a quest there.

I did mostly forest events and for example got the pound event giving an extra skill point 3 times perhaps even 4. But the wrestling, never ever again, despite the first time I got it very fast, perhaps my game is broken.