I did the granary math so you don't have to - Spoilers - They're not very good

[David]

So first off before we get into this, what is the formula for a farm?
It's very complicated, like, kinda needlessly so, but this is it, how I got this I will show at the end, but for now just trust me on it:
5 + (5 x (Number of farms -1) x Region tier) + (City production x Region tier) + (5 x Region tier) + City production
So in a 2 food region with a single farm and 15 city production it would be:
5 + 5 x 0 x 2 + 15 x 2 + 5 x 2 + 15 = 5 + 0 + 30 + 10 + 15 = 60 total
With two farms it also adds an extra 5 from the passive that all farms have, where they give +5 to all farms in the region, so it is the same formula but add an extra 5 at the end:
5 + 5 x 1 x 2 + 15 x 2 + 5 x 2 + 15 + 5 = 5 + 10 + 30 + 10 + 15 + 5 = 75

1 food costs 25 production so you gotta divide the production by 25 to arrive at how much food it means.

It becomes very complicated with more farms and more bonuses so let's stick with a simple early game test:

4 farms, no granary, 2 food region, 14 city production, no other bonuses of any kind
102 production/turn
4.1 food/turn

408 total production
16.4 total food

5 farms, no granary, 2 food region, 14 city production, no bonuses of any kind
117 production/turn
4.7 food/turn

585 total production
23.5 total food

Difference 15 production per farm / 0.6 food per farm

4 farms, one granary, 2 food region, 14 city production, no bonuses of any kind
136 production/turn
5.4 food/turn

544 total production
21.6 total food

Difference 34 production per farm / 1.3 food per farm

Granary gives a much higher buff to the other farms, but it has no innate food production so in the end an extra farm gives more food than a granary does.

Meaning in a 2 food region it's not worth to build the granary. But what's the formula of the granary here exactly because it seems a bit odd to give 34 production, no?


So how does that work exactly?

Well the formula is this:
City production + 5 x 0.5 x Region tier x number of farms

What does this mean?
Well with 15 city production 2 food region, 1 farm this would be:
15 + 5 x 0.5 x 2 x 1 = 15 + 5 x 1 x 1 = 20
Two farms:
25
Three farms:
30
And so on and so on. Of course this is a bonus PER farm, so 30 to three farms would be 90 bonus production.
In the above case it was 4 farms in a two food region so with 14 production so:
14 + 5 x 0.5 x 2 x 4 = 14 + 5 x 1 x 4 = 34 food per farm, which is 136

The granary is not better in 4 food regions either unfortunately for it. We can substitute in the region tier, but let's go with 15 city production bc 14 is hard to multiply with:

15 + 5 x 0.5 x 4 x 4 = 15 + 5 x 2 x 4 = 55 per farm, which is 220 net gain from the granary.

And extra farm on the other hand means you gain the production that farm has + the bonuses it gives to the other 4 farms.

What does that mean? Well first off 4 farms would produce:
5 + 5 x 3 x 4 + 15 x 4 + 5 x 4 + 15 = 5 + 60 + 60 +20 + 15 = 160 + 3 x 5 passive bonus, 175 total.

When you go from 4 to 5, the 3 in the second part changes to a 4:
5 + 5 x 4 x 4 + 15 x 4 + 5 x 4 + 15 = 5 + 80 + 60 + 20 + 15 = 180 + 4 x 5 passive bonus, 200 total

That means you gain 200 production + an extra 25 per farm, which is 300 total. Much better than with a granary.

Extra farms also scale WAY better with the city's production so generally speaking, an extra farm should be better in basically every circumstance. The only reason to build them is to produce grain stores OR to gain extra production on resource nodes that you need badly. Do not build granaries if you are lacking food, build them if you want extra tobacco money or livestock animals.

[bmrigs]

I will take your word for it. I'm too dumb to follow it.

[marlo_vidt]

David eredeti hozzászólása:

4 farms, no granary, 2 food region, 14 city production, no bonuses of any kind
136 production/turn
5.4 food/turn

544 total production
21.6 total food

Difference 34 production per farm / 1.3 food per farm

Granary gives a much higher buff to the other farms, but it has no innate food production so in the end an extra farm gives more food than a granary does.

Meaning in a 2 food region it's not worth to build the granary. But what's the formula of the granary here exactly because it seems a bit odd to give 34 production, no?

Was this ment to say one granary? I can't make any sense of it as it is

[David]

marlo_vidt eredeti hozzászólása:

David eredeti hozzászólása:

4 farms, no granary, 2 food region, 14 city production, no bonuses of any kind
136 production/turn
5.4 food/turn

544 total production
21.6 total food

Difference 34 production per farm / 1.3 food per farm

Granary gives a much higher buff to the other farms, but it has no innate food production so in the end an extra farm gives more food than a granary does.

Meaning in a 2 food region it's not worth to build the granary. But what's the formula of the granary here exactly because it seems a bit odd to give 34 production, no?

Was this ment to say one granary? I can't make any sense of it as it is

Yes! Thank you it was a copy paste error. My bad.
I show 4 farm, 5 farm, 4 farm+granary in succession so you can compare them.

[David]

bmrigs eredeti hozzászólása:

I will take your word for it. I'm too dumb to follow it.

Basically - have 1 or at most 2 granaries in your empire, you never need more than that, and certainly don't need one in every city. You want them mainly for the grain stores item that they can produce, but the building itself can be replaced fairly quickly.

[Arctuhris]

I understood the main advantage of Granaries (aside from crafting the food item) to improve resource harvesting. Farms aren't resource harvesting, AFAIK, only things like wheat, barley, grain, sheep, etc. A granary can help push a resource harvest from 1.* up to 2.*, or 3.*, allowing it be used as a resource in another crafting location, which can make a huge difference.

For straight farm boosting, the well has double the farm bonus and, I think, is meant to go on the largest (5 or 6 node), farming region in a city to double their regional bonus.

Thank you for the math, though! Very interesting to see worked out, that they are not in fact worth it in a region with only farms. However, I don't think that's what they're designed for anyway; they're meant to go in a region with 2 or 3 farming resources, like wheat, rice, sheep, etc.

[David]

Arctuhris eredeti hozzászólása:

I understood the main advantage of Granaries (aside from crafting the food item) to improve resource harvesting. Farms aren't resource harvesting, AFAIK, only things like wheat, barley, grain, sheep, etc. A granary can help push a resource harvest from 1.* up to 2.*, or 3.*, allowing it be used as a resource in another crafting location, which can make a huge difference.

For straight farm boosting, the well has double the farm bonus and, I think, is meant to go on the largest (5 or 6 node), farming region in a city to double their regional bonus.

Thank you for the math, though! Very interesting to see worked out, that they are not in fact worth it in a region with only farms. However, I don't think that's what they're designed for anyway; they're meant to go in a region with 2 or 3 farming resources, like wheat, rice, sheep, etc.

Yes, it's mainly to harvest rare resources, not food. That is the point, same goes for wells actually. Wells give a flat 100% bonus to production, same as an extra heavy plow, so they're also not ideal for food yield either, but if you have a resource you desperately need more of then you can use a well or a granary. Personally I recommend wells over granaries because they give better health benefits.

[StrayCat]

@David....wow....I don't even own the game yet.....but this is some serious digging and a spectacular effort to help others understand the game.

[The Former]

Some exceptional factoring.

But the thing about granaries is that the farm output boost is secondary to their main purpose, which is producing amenities. They give grain an even greater food boost and the whole city a growth boost in the early game, and these boosts can be shipped out to other cities as well.

That's what I love about this game. There's no singular "viable way" to play. There's benefit to building another farm instead of a granary, but a different benefit entirely to building a granary instead of another farm.

[David]

The Former eredeti hozzászólása:

Some exceptional factoring.

But the thing about granaries is that the farm output boost is secondary to their main purpose, which is producing amenities. They give grain an even greater food boost and the whole city a growth boost in the early game, and these boosts can be shipped out to other cities as well.

That's what I love about this game. There's no singular "viable way" to play. There's benefit to building another farm instead of a granary, but a different benefit entirely to building a granary instead of another farm.

Yes so basically the point of this isn't that granaries are garbage and you shouldn't build them, the point is that you build them smarter.
First off - Place them next to a resource node. A bigger boost to important resources like dyes, tobacco, horses, etc is valuable.
Secondly - Don't just make one in every city blindly. You don't need one in every city. Grain stores are used once every 10 turns, you can supply your entire nation with one or at most two granaries, depending on how many cities you have. If there's no resources you need more of, just make another farm instead of a third granary.

[The Former]

David eredeti hozzászólása:

The Former eredeti hozzászólása:

Some exceptional factoring.

But the thing about granaries is that the farm output boost is secondary to their main purpose, which is producing amenities. They give grain an even greater food boost and the whole city a growth boost in the early game, and these boosts can be shipped out to other cities as well.

That's what I love about this game. There's no singular "viable way" to play. There's benefit to building another farm instead of a granary, but a different benefit entirely to building a granary instead of another farm.

Yes so basically the point of this isn't that granaries are garbage and you shouldn't build them, the point is that you build them smarter.
First off - Place them next to a resource node. A bigger boost to important resources like dyes, tobacco, horses, etc is valuable.
Secondly - Don't just make one in every city blindly. You don't need one in every city. Grain stores are used once every 10 turns, you can supply your entire nation with one or at most two granaries, depending on how many cities you have. If there's no resources you need more of, just make another farm instead of a third granary.

Agreed. It's definitely not like Civ where every city needs a granary.

[Ara: History Untold]

This is such an awesome post. Thanks for sharing this robust guide! I'm sure many will find it useful.

[SomeOldGuyinHawaii]

Awesome post - I can stop what I was doing now. Just to be clear, what you refer to as region tier is what the game calls Regional Food Yield (0-4 apples per region baseline)? Also, where in the basic farm formula does the "+100% Region Food Yield applied towards Harvest Production" show up?

[SomeOldGuyinHawaii]

Oh wait lemme guess - it's just saying use 100% of the listed yield in the math. So 2 food stays two food. Then double that for irrigation farm, and triple it for industrial farms. If that's the case, though, they should not have put the + sign in front.

[David]

Ara: History Untold eredeti hozzászólása:

This is such an awesome post. Thanks for sharing this robust guide! I'm sure many will find it useful.

Thanks! Took me a lot of time, glad people are appreciating it :)

[David]

SomeOldGuyinHawaii eredeti hozzászólása:

Awesome post - I can stop what I was doing now. Just to be clear, what you refer to as region tier is what the game calls Regional Food Yield (0-4 apples per region baseline)? Also, where in the basic farm formula does the "+100% Region Food Yield applied towards Harvest Production" show up?

Yes thati s what I meant by region tier. I find this a bit clearer than yield because well, that can be mistaken for how much food the place actually produces.

I didn't really test irrigation farms, but I think it just adds 2x modifier into the formula next to one or all of the parts with the region tier in them.

The thing with farms is, it kinda just shows one number and doesn't really break down what that number comes from so it's quite a bit of work to find everything out. Still, I'll probably do a part 2 about upgraded farms vs regular farms when I have time.