The basic game design has a problem

[Arvid]

After playing for over 130 hours, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the basic game design has a problem!
I can imagine that new cities should be built evenly, just as competitors disappear over the ages.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that! You can build the maximum number of cities (Republic, Empire) early on and that is also used. Because you want to have as many resources and types of resources as possible. Settlers are also very cheap!

The result of all this is that the map will always be empty!
The AI ​​no longer builds in the new gaps that have arisen.
It can't be due to the availability of settlers!

The possible number of cities should increase with the ages.
That may not be entirely historical, but the game (apart from the expansions) doesn't place any value on that anyway.
A second possibility would be that you can't destroy a city and that nations that disappear after the ages are replaced by barbarian states.
That makes it more difficult to conquer them!

[VDmitry]

Originally posted by Arvid:

The possible number of cities should increase with the ages.

It does. Since Industrial you may get +2 or so.

Also, you can build more cities than the limit allows. Can't you? I didn't try myself, but I know that cities over limit give you penalties.

nations that disappear after the ages are replaced by barbarian states.

They do. These free territories have wandering armies.

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I'd add also that you may not need new cities to start using closest territories previously working for your neighbour. New cities are typically required to settle on remote territories.

There is also no guarantie you reach the limit. It depends. Try Earth map in particular.

There are also new governments you hesistated using previously because of not enough reasons to switch to them.

[VDmitry]

Originally posted by VDmitry:

Can't you? I didn't try myself, but I know that cities over limit give you penalties.

Yep, the game doesn't allow.

Still, in the early game you only has the limit 3, then it goes to 6. By the game end the limit is around 12.

[Arvid]

Fine, those are theoretical values.
But is that how it is handled? For me, the maps are emptier later in the game than in the middle!

It's about what the AI ​​does, not so much what I can do as a player!

I have to admit that if you play as world ruler, and many do, this discussion doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, even as a relatively small nation, I want to be in the top ranks by using good tactics.

An exciting game is more important to me than a won one!
I'm too old to suck my own balls ;)

[VDmitry]

Originally posted by Arvid:

For me, the maps are emptier later in the game than in the middle!

May be it's because of the weak AI. As an example when I finished my game (on Prince) the remaining AI nations did not advance to Industrial yet.

Otherwise it should be ok. If 12 nations each with 3 cities can fill the map (36 cities in total), then 3 nations each with 12 cities can do the same (36 cities too). And these later cities will be larger due higher population.

I'm planning to play again on Grand Duke with v1.2. Emperor might be problematic as you can simply not survive Act 1.

[Jamus]

Originally posted by VDmitry:

I'm planning to play again on Grand Duke with v1.2. Emperor might be problematic as you can simply not survive Act 1.

In my opinion, the culling at the end of Act 1 adds a level of challenge and interest to the single player early game at Grand Duke/Emperor level that other Civ games cannot match.

For v.1.1 I find that I need to adjust the tech cost to +50% on Emperor in order for the first Act to have enough Turns (typically around 180 or so) to have a decent shot at avoiding elimination. For reference at +50% tech cost, the first Emperor AI (on a small map with 8 or 9 total Civs) will reach the Early Middle Ages at around Turn 160 or so.

[Arvid]

There is now an option in the advanced game settings where you can limit the culling to AI (just for your information)!

[skielb]

I agree that improvements here would be good. On standard size/12 civs I also see the problem that spaces of land stay unoccupied later in the game.

Increasing the city caps after every culling would make sense to create the opportunity to settle the free lands. Good if that's already implemented for industrial age, but that will not solve the whole problem.

Originally posted by Arvid:

A second possibility would be that you can't destroy a city and that nations that disappear after the ages are replaced by barbarian states.
That makes it more difficult to conquer them!

I am not sure why not destroying cities. If you have to keep all bad cities you conquer, it would even get worse?

If disappeared nations could leave something else behind than ruins and some roaming barbarians, it would definitely make the culling more interesting. Tribes, city states, maybe a kind barbarian attack ...

The main problem is the bad city placing of the AI. It seems they are eager to build cities whenever they can and build them too close together or in some small free spaces between or inside other empires that cannot grow much further.
I saw in my current game the most extreme example until now (patch 1.1). I razed a city in a war. It seems another nation that is located far away had three strolling settlers nearby and founded three cities at once. Side by side with maybe in total 6 other unoccupied regions around. They will never grow and contribute much...

The AI is wasting it's settlers, then they cannot settle more when culling opens up land and existing cities cannot grow to their full potential which makes their development slowing down during the later ages. This is in my view the current key weakness of the AI.

Some rules like keep settlers for later if there is not sufficient space left, or it is not allowed to settle too close to existing cities could help.

Or some new options that smaller cities could be absorbed by larger ones later on so they can continue to grow and new cities could be founded?

[Arvid]

@VDmitry: "May be it's because of the weak AI."
That's why I'm writing this!!!
The developers should take care of finishing their product before adding more personalities!

[Filo90]

1.2 should bring a massive AI update based on devs preview....let's see

[skielb]

I really hope the settling behavior is a part of it! Are there anywhere more details on contents of the AI update?

[Arvid]

@skielb:"Or some new options that smaller cities could be absorbed by larger ones later on so they can continue to grow and new cities could be founded?"
A good idea!
Maybe not only the number of cities should be developed, but also the regions per city.
This way you can decide in the game whether to combine cities or expand them.

[Filo90]

Originally posted by skielb:

I really hope the settling behavior is a part of it! Are there anywhere more details on contents of the AI update?

look here

https://steamcommunity.com/app/2021880/discussions/0/4638239892706464792/

[Winterbaummooskönig*innen]

My wish from "The Wishlist Thrad" (12. Okt. um 22:48 ):

Cities could merge with other cities. In such a case, the city center could become a district house, which would increase the limit of special buildings in the city by +1. There could also be a limit of two district houses per city in the final era (research: territorial reform). This way, each player has the opportunity to integrate a smaller city or expand their own city with a district house. As a result, metropolises could be created, and the patchwork of numerous city spawns on a continent at the start of the game could be reduced.

[Arvid]

By the way, I'm currently playing a new game with version 1.1.1.
Now the gaps have become so large that entire continents are empty!
This is going further and further in the wrong direction!

The idea of ​​"culling" is not uninteresting!
But the way it is currently implemented is completely counterproductive!