What is the state of the Wolfenstein canon?

[Hellblazer]

I know New Order and Old Blood are definitely in the same continuity, but what about Wolf3D/Spear of Destiny, Return to Castle Wolfenstein and the 2009 Wolf? Or is the series like the Mad Max series, where each story is more or less a legend and therefore full of contradictions and inaccuracies? And given the fact that in some newer versions of Wolf3D has UAC from Doom referenced in it, does that mean the Doom games are canon as well?

[Sovereign]

Wolf 2009, Wolf OB and Wolf NO are all in the same canon. RtCW is also canon but only the Deaths Head levels, everthing else is non-canon.

[DogMeat]

Complete and utter mess. Mad Max, like you said, or James Bond would be similar to the canon of Wolfenstein.

In the 80s you had Castle Wolfenstein and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein.

id Software were fans of those games so they bought the rights to the series and remade those games in Wolfenstein 3D. Then the MAC and SNES versions of Wolfenstein 3D came out which changed the story and location of events. Then there was Spear of Destiny which was a prequel to Wolfenstein 3D and then you also had the Nocturnal Missions which were also prequels to Wolfenstein 3D.

There were also two expansions to Spear of Destiny, the so called Lost Missions. One of them had BJ travelling into the future to a UAC facility. Seriously.

That was just the 80s and 90s.

Now the series gets yet another reboot with Return to Castle Wolfenstein which is sort of a remake of Wolfenstein 3D. The new nemesis of the series, Deathshead was intended as a reboot of the Dr. Schabbs boss from Wolfenstein 3D and many of the chapters are named after episodes from Wolf 3D.

Wolfenstein 2009 rolls around and its pretty much a direct sequel to RtCW. Deathshead returns as the villain again escaping at the end.

All is fine with the reboot so far... except they go and release these videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K51aKxu82gQ
Great... so now Wolfenstein 3D, Spear of Destiny, RtCW and Wolfenstein 2009 are all part of the same canon? WTF Raven...

We're not done yet.

Wolfenstein RPG is released for cell phones. Its yet another reboot mixing the stories of RtCW (Dr. Schabbs working on super soldiers, Marianna, crypts with zombies) and Spear of Destiny together (Nazis summon the cyber demon... not kidding... and the only way to beat him is with the Spear of Destiny which cuts off his harm and leg, hence his cyber leg and rocket arm in Doom... seriously... not kidding).

So next up New Order is announced. Machine Games claim this is a reboot, yet they directly tie the series to Wolfenstein 2009 by bringing the resistance leader (Caroline) back and even explaining her survival and also tying in Deathshead's new 'happy man' mood to his survival of the Zeppelin crash in the last game. Also referenced in New Order is chapter 5 of RtCW where BJ swam through Deathshead's X-Labs in Norway. Not seeing how this is a reboot... except in style.

Next up is Old Blood... which pretty much solidifies the reboot angle. Old Blood is practically a retelling of the first two chapters of RtCW. Agent One returns (died in RtCW), Kessler returns yet they've never met before, the villain is the same overweight Helga von Schabbs, formerly Helga von Bulow and the final boss of the game bares a striking resemblance to Olaric. Old Blood even makes reference to Wolfenstein 3D with an assassination attempt on Hitler by someone who looks just like BJ Blazkowicz.

TL:DR... Wolfenstein canon is completely FUBAR. The only game that fits neatly into the New Order/Old Blood canon is Wolfenstein 2009, which ironically seems to be one of the most hated by the devs.

[Hellblazer]

Цитата допису DogMeat:

Complete and utter mess. Mad Max, like you said, or James Bond would be similar to the canon of Wolfenstein.

In the 80s you had Castle Wolfenstein and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein.

id Software were fans of those games so they bought the rights to the series and remade those games in Wolfenstein 3D. Then the MAC and SNES versions of Wolfenstein 3D came out which changed the story and location of events. Then there was Spear of Destiny which was a prequel to Wolfenstein 3D and then you also had the Nocturnal Missions which were also prequels to Wolfenstein 3D.

There were also two expansions to Spear of Destiny, the so called Lost Missions. One of them had BJ travelling into the future to a UAC facility. Seriously.

That was just the 80s and 90s.

Now the series gets yet another reboot with Return to Castle Wolfenstein which is sort of a remake of Wolfenstein 3D. The new nemesis of the series, Deathshead was intended as a reboot of the Dr. Schabbs boss from Wolfenstein 3D and many of the chapters are named after episodes from Wolf 3D.

Wolfenstein 2009 rolls around and its pretty much a direct sequel to RtCW. Deathshead returns as the villain again escaping at the end.

All is fine with the reboot so far... except they go and release these videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K51aKxu82gQ
Great... so now Wolfenstein 3D, Spear of Destiny, RtCW and Wolfenstein 2009 are all part of the same canon? WTF Raven...

We're not done yet.

Wolfenstein RPG is released for cell phones. Its yet another reboot mixing the stories of RtCW (Dr. Schabbs working on super soldiers, Marianna, crypts with zombies) and Spear of Destiny together (Nazis summon the cyber demon... not kidding... and the only way to beat him is with the Spear of Destiny which cuts off his harm and leg, hence his cyber leg and rocket arm in Doom... seriously... not kidding).

So next up New Order is announced. Machine Games claim this is a reboot, yet they directly tie the series to Wolfenstein 2009 by bringing the resistance leader (Caroline) back and even explaining her survival and also tying in Deathshead's new 'happy man' mood to his survival of the Zeppelin crash in the last game. Also referenced in New Order is chapter 5 of RtCW where BJ swam through Deathshead's X-Labs in Norway. Not seeing how this is a reboot... except in style.

Next up is Old Blood... which pretty much solidifies the reboot angle. Old Blood is practically a retelling of the first two chapters of RtCW. Agent One returns (died in RtCW), Kessler returns yet they've never met before, the villain is the same overweight Helga von Schabbs, formerly Helga von Bulow and the final boss of the game bares a striking resemblance to Olaric. Old Blood even makes reference to Wolfenstein 3D with an assassination attempt on Hitler by someone who looks just like BJ Blazkowicz.

TL:DR... Wolfenstein canon is completely FUBAR. The only game that fits neatly into the New Order/Old Blood canon is Wolfenstein 2009, which ironically seems to be one of the most hated by the devs.

So let me get this straight: Wolf3D, Spear of Destiny, RtCW and Wolf2009 are in the same universe, but Old Blood is essentislly a reimagining of RtCW, and New ORder is bascially sequel to Wolf2009 even though it is in a different continuity? And somehow is a direct prequel to Doom? Aye ye ye...

Maybe James Rolf should make a "Chronologically Confused About the Wolfenstein Series" video. Thanks for explaining it! So, does the Steam version of Wolf 3D have the Nocturnal Missions and Original Encounter? I don't know much about all the different versions of that game, so sorry if I sound like an idiot.

[DogMeat]

Цитата допису Doc-Octavia:

So let me get this straight: Wolf3D, Spear of Destiny, RtCW and Wolf2009 are in the same universe,

Only according to the videos Raven released. They even contradict themselves as Hans Grosse is killed both in Wolfenstein 2009, and in the video version of Wolfenstein 3D. The continuity makes a lot more sense if you ignore the videos.

Цитата допису Doc-Octavia:

but Old Blood is essentislly a reimagining of RtCW, and New ORder is bascially sequel to Wolf2009 even though it is in a different continuity?

More or less.

Цитата допису Doc-Octavia:

And somehow is a direct prequel to Doom? Aye ye ye...

Wolfenstein 3D was sort of tied to the Clssic Dooms. Besides the expansion to Spear of Destiny, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that Doom guy was a relative of BJ. Also, Wolfenstein RPG is a direct prequel to Doom RPG. Much like Wolfenstein, Doom has multiple canons.

Цитата допису Doc-Octavia:

Maybe James Rolf should make a "Chronologically Confused About the Wolfenstein Series" video. Thanks for explaining it!

Tell me about it. It makes as much sense as the Zelda chronology.

Цитата допису Doc-Octavia:

So, does the Steam version of Wolf 3D have the Nocturnal Missions and Original Encounter? I don't know much about all the different versions of that game, so sorry if I sound like an idiot.

Steam has Wolfenstein 3D (including the Nocturnal Missions) and Spear of Destiny (including the Lost Missions). It does NOT include Original Encounter... as that was Mac only. The SNES was also a censored version of the Mac version... or was the Mac version an uncensored version of the SNES version?

I highly recommend this...
http://www.afadoomer.com/wolf3d/default.php

Its a total conversion of ALL Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny content for the ZDoom engine. Its also missing the MAC/SNES content though.

The MAC version was ported to PC though. I've had a bit of trouble with stability but it might work fine for others. This forum post has a link right at the top.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/everything-else/48464-mac-wolfenstein-port-for-the-pc/

[Hellblazer]

[/quote] I highly recommend this...
http://www.afadoomer.com/wolf3d/default.php

Its a total conversion of ALL Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny content for the ZDoom engine. Its also missing the MAC/SNES content though.

The MAC version was ported to PC though. I've had a bit of trouble with stability but it might work fine for others. This forum post has a link right at the top.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/everything-else/48464-mac-wolfenstein-port-for-the-pc/ [/quote]

I use ECWolf. I find ZDoom too much of a hassle. Thanks though. Is he Mac port compatible with ECWolf?

[Doc]

I think the canon of Wolfenstein makes a lot more sense when you start at the point of Return to Castle Wolfenstein (RtCW), because RtCW is essentially a reboot of Wolf3D. Wolf09 would then be it's direct sequel and finally Old Blood and New Order, respectively. I think it's a good idea to just see Wolf3D, Spear of Destiny, the Nocturnal Missions and all other spinoffs or tie-ins with DooM as non-canon, or at least see it as an older series.

[DogMeat]

^ pretty much this.

Every so often after a couple of Wolfenstein games they remember the series is called Wolfenstein and should involve Castle Wolfenstein... so they reboot the escape.

There is stil the problem that chapters 1 & 2 of RtCW are near incompatible with Old Blood. By extension, chapters 6 & 7 wouldn't make sense also being part of New Order/Old Blood canon. Chapters 3 to 5 are completely compatible with Old Blood/New Order as they involve tracking down and stopping Deathshead and his Ubersoldat program which is referenced in both Old Blood & New Order. Chapter 5 in particular is directly referenced in both New Order & Old Blood.

[Mister Torgue Flexington]

since "The Old Blood" and "The New Order" take place after the events from "Wolfenstein 2009", didn't they introduce Fergus in that game?

[Doc]

Цитата допису DogMeat:

Every so often after a couple of Wolfenstein games they remember the series is called Wolfenstein and should involve Castle Wolfenstein... so they reboot the escape.

There is stil the problem that chapters 1 & 2 of RtCW are near incompatible with Old Blood. By extension, chapters 6 & 7 wouldn't make sense also being part of New Order/Old Blood canon. Chapters 3 to 5 are completely compatible with Old Blood/New Order as they involve tracking down and stopping Deathshead and his Ubersoldat program which is referenced in both Old Blood & New Order. Chapter 5 in particular is directly referenced in both New Order & Old Blood.

***MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT PLAYED WOLFENSTEIN GAMES***

Honestly, if MachineGames would get the funding and manpower to create a sequel to New Order, they should still keep the Wolfenstein name. Having the titular castle featured in every Wolfenstein game is not necessary per se. Wolfenstein is a recognizable and marketable brand name, and it sounds much cooler than "The Amazing Adventures of Cpt. William BJ. Blazkowicz, the Catatonic Nightmare of Nazis!". I don't know about the state of MachineGames though, I heard that shortly after the release of New Order, half the company got fired. What I really don't want, is yet another reboot. New Order was an amazing return to form from the... not bad, but very generic and forgettable 2009 Wolfenstein game and I would love for these guys to take it to the next level, given enough development time. I was incredibly dissapointed of not even having a glimpse of the Fuhrer in New Order.

DogMeat hits the nail on the head concerning the incredible coincidences of the same kind of events in both RTCW and OB. Being captured twice (with a colleague named Wesley, no less), being interrogated by overly cruel Nazis, and then facing off against two Helga's who both get utterly demolished by the very discovery they were searching for. I honestly can't figure out if this should be attributed as laziness on MachineGames' part, or if they just felt like having fun and creating some new levels for the fans. Which is great, obviously, I have played Wolf3D since I was six years old, but those couple of levels don't help the Wolfenstein canon as a whole.

I still feel chapters 3 to 7 make sense in the context of OB/NO games. Chapters 3 to 5 show how BJ meets Deathshead/Totenkoph for the first time. He sees the Ubersoldat program from the very beginning (the deformed soldiers who walk on both hands) but he escapes, and when the man survives, so does the Ubersoldat program. That's why you still see them after chapters 3 - 5. Now that he is dead, it's still very possible the Ubersoldat program is still alive and kicking, Deathshead had 14 years to copy all of his knowledge to pass on to others. Young Nazi scientists who will then, with a fresh outlook on technology, improve on his creations. And remember, the Nazi's are not defeated yet. They control the world, so the victory at the end of New Order is but a small one. MachineGames finally has room to create a completely new terrifying bad guy.

[whitecrow]

I think Old Blood is definitely at least partly a remake of Return. I didn't mind it, because even though Return is still fun to play, it was nice to see it with modern graphics.

[Half-dude]

I only really played the bigger games in the series and only really consider them canon in the timeline. I've played through the original Wolf3D but honestly I can't stand it, its incredibly boring, repeatitive, and I hate the maze-crawling.

So to me the first game in the series is Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Despite the name sounding like a seuel, I consider it talking more about the fact that you return to the castle again at the end of the game after breaking out at the beginning. The OSA director even says in the cutscene in a sort of 'roll the credits way' "it's settled then, Blaskovits returns to castle wolfenstein."

This game sets up a lot of the things the rest of the series keeps recalling. Most importantly, BJ's first run in with Wilhelm 'Deathshead' Strasse.

--

The second game in the series is Wolfenstein 2009, it's assumed be me to take place a year or so after the first game. RTCW took place in 1943 as seen in the dates marked on clipboard notes you find in the game. I believe it's even confirmed by being seen in the game world that 2009 takes place in 1944.

This seems to be when Deathshead starts getting a lot of pull and power. He also seems to have taken over the Paranormal Division or atl east part of it, which was previously controlled directly by Himmler. This is interesting because in RTCW Deaths head was portrayed as a very levelheaded scientist strictly against any paranormal nonsense. So to see him get involved with the blacksun stuff is and interesting change in character. Perhaps after being exposed to the work being done, he realized that the occult crap might actually be useful if it at least leads to something physical and actually helpful such as ooh.. a consentrated ball of pure energy in an altnerate universe such as the black sun.

BJ destroys Deathshead's zepplin, sending him down with it. Deathshead survives and as said in the New Order character sheet, this near death experience gave him a whole new outlook on life. It's also why the whole side of his face is all scard and melty looking in New Order because of the fire.

--

Old Blood is next in the series, taking place in 1946 and offically after the alternate diverging of the timelines with IRL. The Nazis are winning the war by a landslide thanks to Deathshead's continuous research and development. The Paranormal Divion seems to have been for the most part dispanded, probably since Deathsheads work is what's leading to much of Germany's victories while the Paranormal Division's plans have continuously been thwarted.

Castle Wolfenstein has been for the most part majorly renovated and built apon in the 3 years since RTCW. This may have been because it seemed like Castle Wolfenstein got badly destroyed by the zombie outbreak at the end of RTCW. Deathshead must have also bought the castle, since it was originaly property of Heinrick Himmler. It begs the question as to if Himmler is even still around in the universe or if so what his state is in the Nazi heirarchy as it seems like Deathshead has quite a bit of leadership over the SS himself by this point.

BJ's old contact Kessler makes a return in Old Blood looking mostly like he did in the first game. In RTCW he was actually with the German Resistance not an agent of the OSA, but he may have been offered the job later.

There is Helga Von Schabbs and Deathshead's advicer Schreiner. They're obvious references and semi-remakes of Helga Von Bulow and HER assistant Pf. Zemph. Though I'm willing to accept tha they're actually 2 totally seperate sets of characters and that their simularities are a mere coincidence. Besides Helga Von Bulow and Zemph where with Himmler's SS Paranomal Division, while Helga Von Schabbs and Schreiner work for Deathshead.

--

Then we have the New Order, and well.. history.

[Mr.SkarKasm]

honestly i think that RtCW up to NO are Canon, except for some Hiccups here and there, of course :D

[uzernaem]

Machinegames themselves said that The New Order is a continuation of the original Wolf 3D games. Wolfenstein 2009 is excluded from canon completely and The Old Blood is an alternative retelling of RTCW. So basically the canon is:
- Wolfenstein 3D
- Spear of Destiny
- RTCW / The Old Blood
- The New Order

Wolf 2009 is left out, not a big deal, the game is mediocre.

[taylor the creative]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, wolf 2009 is a great game.

[SmallTownCityMan]

Цитата допису uzernaem:

Machinegames themselves said that The New Order is a continuation of the original Wolf 3D games.

Hitler is still alive in TNO, but was killed in Episode 3 of Wolf 3D. Did MachineGames explain that?