LGBT Elements?

[GlockLesnar]

Hiya, I am a part of the LGBT community, and I'm glad to see more great Indie titles adding representation. Though as someone that values harmony, I'm also not one for modern day politics being inserted into escapist mediums. Two of the Best Games and worst offenders I played last year were Timespinner and Small Saga. Both masterpieces is game design and story that were let down by the insertion very heavy handed modern politics that were out of place and jarring.

By contrast, I also played quite a few LGBT games last year that avoided this issue like: The Cosmic Wheel Sisterhood, Chained Echoes, Arcadian Atlas and Romanicelvania, that managed to have LGBT characters and romance stories without coming off as propaganda.

In short, Is this going to be the writers self insert wish fulfillment or a relatable tale with LGBT characters?

[ArcheKnight]

Początkowo opublikowane przez iliketostayhome:

Thoughtful post.

I, personally, have become completely allergic to the slightest mention of "modern themes" or LGBT anything.

I was an ally long before Tumblr was around. My beliefs have not changed.

But the activism has become aggressive and pervasive.

I hope the game does well, but I badly need some escapism. I will not touch anything that advertises current politics / culture war topics.

Best of luck.

I think, maybe, you aren't the ally that you think you are. I mean this with as much respect as I can muster, which is incredibly little for people who equate my life, liberty, and pursuits of happiness as political. My life is only political because some people needed to make it that way to win a war. Maybe we should stop including people of color or people who don't speak English. Why wouldn't we based on your logic? If I'm a bigot then how could I escape when games are so political as to include people I don't like as if they are equal to myself... And if you don't like the fact that we are screaming about political issues and representation then maybe take a moment and think about why. Maybe we have to bring it up all of the time because the other "side" (there shouldn't be another side) brings it up all of the time but are coordinated in changing and removing our rights. Maybe I don't like that my existence is being erased from media for children as if I, and people like me, are despicable and X rated. And, frankly, this is all without even touching trans rights which I am less of an expert on but still stand behind with all that I have.

Take some time. Think about why some things are "political". Then, think about why you are immediately taking the side that queer representation is too "pushy" as if heterosexuality isn't still the default.

[barunaru]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Retro:

this game is visually gorgeous, looks like it has fun gameplay elements, but I'm not into any form of relationship type of thing in games lately it's overdue and I think i can agree there is to much activist agendas in gaming, i would prefer a well crafted story. I do think there is a perfect genre for it though (relationship/romance) type of games fit Visual Novel games better.

good luck!

Why should it not have a well crafted story? This is what I am actually hoping for in most JRPGs I play.

[GalanOfTruth]

So there are people out there who would disagree with my thoughts on this, but as someone who DOES love seeing LGBT elements in games I don't really like seeing them portrayed as a taboo and a struggle even though that very well is the case in the real world in many places. Not saying it's bad, i just don't think it has to be that way every time. I like seeing stories where it's somewhat normalized because my feelings are that representing it as a normal and organic thing and not as a taboo/social problem can make people more comfortable with it. Like you'd notice that people didn't have issues with the very clear gay relationship in FFXVI because it just existed as naturally as the relationships between other heterosexual characters and neither was shown as superior or inferior in the minds of people in the game.

[CloudKira]

Is the protagonist gay or bi?

Like its possible to hook up with a male or female companion/npc depending on our choices?

I do not mind gay stuff but regarding romance I would prefer if there was also some straight romance as well.

[Marcus Butthurticus]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Speedstersonic:

God this reads like you are saying LGBTQ people even existing is political, maybe you didn't mean it that way, but this rhetoric is really insidious. Sorry some of us had to go through hell to get where we are and it gets shown and portrayed in media because some of us are still fighting for our rights to exist. What is political or what does that mean to you being in the community as you say that you even have to ask about LGBTQ elements?

How exactly? Its a reasonable post with a person asking how its represented without being in your face and shoe horned in.

[LupisVolk]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Marcus Butthurticus:

without being in your face and shoe horned in.

And pray tell who get's to define what's "in your face" and "shoe horned in"?

[NewMoonShadow]

Początkowo opublikowane przez LupisVolk:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Marcus Butthurticus:

without being in your face and shoe horned in.

And pray tell who get's to define what's "in your face" and "shoe horned in"?

Basically, people tend to find any excuse to justify why whatever it is that they dislike "doesn't belong" in the thing without just admitting that they don't like said thing.

A few years back it was commonplace to hear YouTube pundits address minorities in fiction by saying some variant of "I like minority representation, I just want GOOD minority representation that feels organic", and then proceeding to make every single video they make about aggressively nitpicky reasons why every piece of media they see with a minority character in it "has the bad kind actually". It's a completely bad faith argument that tries to gatekeep minorities from appearing in media without taking on the backlash of just saying that they don't want those minorities in media because they don't like them.

The bulk have moved past that at this point and just use the term "woke" as a derogatory to describe/malign anything with a minority character in it, but there are a couple of hangers-on who are dedicated to keeping up the facade of NOT being racists or bigots. Phrases like "in your face" and "shoehorned in" are probably among the top excuses used by such people. Phrases that are so vague as to be meaningless while still sounding like rational criticism if you don't put too much thought into it.

[Veg]

Początkowo opublikowane przez NewMoonShadow:

Początkowo opublikowane przez LupisVolk:

And pray tell who get's to define what's "in your face" and "shoe horned in"?

Basically, people tend to find any excuse to justify why whatever it is that they dislike "doesn't belong" in the thing without just admitting that they don't like said thing.

A few years back it was commonplace to hear YouTube pundits address minorities in fiction by saying some variant of "I like minority representation, I just want GOOD minority representation that feels organic", and then proceeding to make every single video they make about aggressively nitpicky reasons why every piece of media they see with a minority character in it "has the bad kind actually". It's a completely bad faith argument that tries to gatekeep minorities from appearing in media without taking on the backlash of just saying that they don't want those minorities in media because they don't like them.

The bulk have moved past that at this point and just use the term "woke" as a derogatory to describe/malign anything with a minority character in it, but there are a couple of hangers-on who are dedicated to keeping up the facade of NOT being racists or bigots. Phrases like "in your face" and "shoehorned in" are probably among the top excuses used by such people. Phrases that are so vague as to be meaningless while still sounding like rational criticism if you don't put too much thought into it.

Not to be confused with the guys who call everyone who disagrees with them racist.

[MinocFox]

So basically you don't mind a little gay, but if it's too gay it's suddenly propaganda lol.

[2 Left Thumbs]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Bearzyrker:

Początkowo opublikowane przez MinocFox:

So basically you don't mind a little gay, but if it's too gay it's suddenly propaganda lol.

It's about the way it's implemented, really.
Hell if I know if its done well or not here, but it's odd they go out of their way to mention it in their frontpage, then claim they didn't prioritize it here.

It's a classic JRPG, starring a collection of straight and queer characters.
So yes, the game includes LGBTQ+ themes and elements. It's just not what the game is about.

It's mentioned on the store page once and was included as a Steam tag, because it's a truth about the game's content. But we're not leading with that, because it's still an RPG adventure first and foremost.

Nobody is hiding anything, or being a "coward".

[Keoni]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Challak:

I believe the worry for some here is that OP's messages seem to have several layers that suggest a mix of what may be genuine concern and potential bad faith motives. Here's how it breaks down:

Genuine Concerns: The writer expresses a desire for inclusivity without feeling that modern-day politics are being forced into the narrative. They mention enjoying games with LGBT elements that feel "organic" and not like "propaganda," which could be interpreted as a genuine preference for subtlety in storytelling.

Problematic Elements:
- "Innocent" Language, Troubling Implications: The writer's use of phrases like "modern day politics" and "propaganda" suggests they may equate visible LGBT representation with a forced agenda, which can be a red flag. The implication is that LGBT themes should be subtle or else they're unwelcome, which can be a way to marginalize overt representation.
- False Equivalency: Comparing a potential LGBT-positive narrative to an extreme, fictional scenario where a protagonist secretly wants to harm LGBT people (the "MAGA chud" comment) is an exaggerated and potentially harmful false equivalency. This comparison could indicate a deeper bias against overt LGBT themes.
- Disguised Criticism: Phrases like "just a story" and suggesting that the story would be fine if the characters' genders were interchangeable can subtly undermine the importance of LGBT representation by implying that gender and sexual orientation are incidental and should be invisible unless necessary for the plot.

Many Have Unfortunately Learned To Recognize Red Flags for Bad Faith:
- Shifting the Goalposts: While claiming to be part of the LGBT community and stating they're not an activist, the person also expresses strong opinions about what constitutes acceptable representation. This could be a tactic to appear neutral or even supportive while subtly pushing a narrative that LGBT representation should be minimal or unobtrusive.
- Conflating Inclusivity with Propaganda: By framing certain games as "propaganda" and others as appropriately inclusive, they are setting a subjective standard that can be easily manipulated to dismiss any representation they find too overt.
- Potential Concern Trolling: The overall tone, particularly in the latter messages, can come off as concern trolling—where someone feigns concern to push a more critical or harmful viewpoint.

In summary, I think the worry for some seeing this exchange is that while OP (and others later) claims to be supportive of LGBT representation, their messages contain several red flags that suggest they may be using seemingly "innocent" language to express underlying prejudices. Their focus on avoiding "forced" representation and the insistence on stories being relatable without overt LGBT themes might be a way to gatekeep what they consider acceptable inclusivity.

This, I believe quite reasonably, raises concern and invites rational challenge, especially legitimizing inquiry for clarification to uncover more and therefore have more data and reasonable insight to uncover what is more likely happening.

That's the best summary I've seen in a while, great job!

[micahdraws]

Man, some of y'all are so blatantly against literally any LGBTQ inclusion (including some of you calling yourselves allies or even people like OP) that you should just not play this game to be on the safe side :) I'd hate to see your delicate sensibilities offended because there's "too much" gay or it's "forced" or whatever other moving targets you wanna set up.

Never mind that there's no such thing as "too much gay" or "forced representation," not really. It's just buzzwords that people throw around because they're scared to accept that sometimes a game just isn't made for them and that's okay. You're allowed to just not like a game because of reasons you haven't taken time to examine yet -- or even just because you don't like it.

If you don't wanna play a game with LGBTQ characters, don't. It's not hard. You're not required to play this or any other game. This game's not gonna make you gay just because there's two guys in a romantic relationship that may or may not kiss or hold hands or something. If you are worried a game has "too much," just move on. Let the people who enjoy it continue to enjoy it and head off to whatever game DOES offer what you want. Plenty of games offer a similar experience to this one, to the point that you won't even miss it. This whole "too much" and "forced" stuff is such a weird, junior high school kind of "argument."

This game's existence doesn't hurt you. People enjoying this game or games with "too much" gay or "forced representation" doesn't hurt you and doesn't have anything to do with you. You can just... not play. There's SO MANY games out there that there's no good reason to make a whole thing because this one MIGHT be "too gay" or "forced." It's really, really not that deep.

[Rapturous Games]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Bearzyrker:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Rapturous Games:

Thanks for the thoughtful question! Although perhaps some of it might answer itself if you have time to try out the demo. I prefer to let the game speak for itself rather than try to summarize.

I will say...as a writer, we can't help but put some of ourselves into the characters - but I decided to intentionally avoid making the story overly "political" (at least in the traditional modern sense). I wanted the story to have some room to breathe...to possibly be appreciated by nearly anyone open to it, whether LGBT+ or not. The characters are complex human beings first and foremost.

That's why I chose not to prioritize LGBTQ+ elements in the marketing, even though that actually might hurt total sales. I want the characters and themes to stand on their own, regardless of the character's sexuality, etc.

You literally market the game with LGBT stuff in the description.

Either support it, or don't, but please don't be a coward.

I am LGBT myself. Not sure what you mean by this comment, honestly.

I was trying to explain that this isn't "woke / political / pandering" in its intentions. It's merely a dark fantasy story that happens to have some LGBT characters. If that bothers people, maybe it's not for them. There are 1000 other RPGs out there.

[[SIN7] jacojarek56]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Challak:

I believe the worry for some here is that OP's messages seem to have several layers that suggest a mix of what may be genuine concern and potential bad faith motives. Here's how it breaks down:

Genuine Concerns: The writer expresses a desire for inclusivity without feeling that modern-day politics are being forced into the narrative. They mention enjoying games with LGBT elements that feel "organic" and not like "propaganda," which could be interpreted as a genuine preference for subtlety in storytelling.

Problematic Elements:
- "Innocent" Language, Troubling Implications: The writer's use of phrases like "modern day politics" and "propaganda" suggests they may equate visible LGBT representation with a forced agenda, which can be a red flag. The implication is that LGBT themes should be subtle or else they're unwelcome, which can be a way to marginalize overt representation.
- False Equivalency: Comparing a potential LGBT-positive narrative to an extreme, fictional scenario where a protagonist secretly wants to harm LGBT people (the "MAGA chud" comment) is an exaggerated and potentially harmful false equivalency. This comparison could indicate a deeper bias against overt LGBT themes.
- Disguised Criticism: Phrases like "just a story" and suggesting that the story would be fine if the characters' genders were interchangeable can subtly undermine the importance of LGBT representation by implying that gender and sexual orientation are incidental and should be invisible unless necessary for the plot.

Many Have Unfortunately Learned To Recognize Red Flags for Bad Faith:
- Shifting the Goalposts: While claiming to be part of the LGBT community and stating they're not an activist, the person also expresses strong opinions about what constitutes acceptable representation. This could be a tactic to appear neutral or even supportive while subtly pushing a narrative that LGBT representation should be minimal or unobtrusive.
- Conflating Inclusivity with Propaganda: By framing certain games as "propaganda" and others as appropriately inclusive, they are setting a subjective standard that can be easily manipulated to dismiss any representation they find too overt.
- Potential Concern Trolling: The overall tone, particularly in the latter messages, can come off as concern trolling—where someone feigns concern to push a more critical or harmful viewpoint.

In summary, I think the worry for some seeing this exchange is that while OP (and others later) claims to be supportive of LGBT representation, their messages contain several red flags that suggest they may be using seemingly "innocent" language to express underlying prejudices. Their focus on avoiding "forced" representation and the insistence on stories being relatable without overt LGBT themes might be a way to gatekeep what they consider acceptable inclusivity.

This, I believe quite reasonably, raises concern and invites rational challenge, especially legitimizing inquiry for clarification to uncover more and therefore have more data and reasonable insight to uncover what is more likely happening.

Wowzers, that's a lot to say you think they're a secret bigot. Just come straight out and call them a bigot.

You'd be wrong, and you'd be launching a dissertation on 'culture war ops' as far as I can tell because a different member of the LGBT community considers inclusion in a way that's just as subjective as yours, but hey! At least you're trying to write a thesis with your spare time.

Good luck, developers, and bless you for trying to make a welcoming game to others while showing a story the way you want to without trying to ward off others.

[Andrew R]

Straight guy here.

Don't really pay attention to labels; just looking for a good rpg adventure.

I've enjoyed titles such as Jimmy and The Pulsating Mass & Omori.