Portal RTX optimization is a trash!

[крейзи тоад]

20fps in 3050

[Ray tracing is faster]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

That depends on what you mean by "no problem running it". If you are below 60 FPS then you definitely do have a big problem running it.

Yeah and that's generous. Since I cannot run it at a minimum of native 4k res with DLAA rather than DLSS for optimal image quality, without frame gen to avoid lag and possible artifacts, and minimum 120 FPS, I conclude that I have a problem running the game and need many upgrades since my RTX 4090 clearly doesn't reach my performance target.

[KillingArts]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Messaggio originale di digitalcoffee:

For anyone with an older, lower end card who finds this thread, don't expect any decent performance from any of these path-traced older games. Path tracing is a whole league above what most of the 30xx RTX cards and older were designed for, in terms of VRAM and overhead path tracing older games will always be a boutique flex. Don't expect a similar hit to ray-tracing on in a modern title, it's like comparing oranges to potatoes. ;-p

I have a RTX 3070 Ti and I can average 90~120 FPS @ 1080p in this game just fine. 30 series cards can run this game perfectly fine with no issues. That's a misleading statement you just wrote.

Depends on your settings. Are we talking 1080 with DLSS enabled? How many bounces? Probably not the standard 4 bounces? I agree that 30xx cards can run this game, no doubt. But I think it's important to specify the settings, and how much they differ from the standard settings (meaning how much of the intended fidelity are we getting here).

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Messaggio originale di KillingArts:

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

I have a RTX 3070 Ti and I can average 90~120 FPS @ 1080p in this game just fine. 30 series cards can run this game perfectly fine with no issues. That's a misleading statement you just wrote.

Depends on your settings. Are we talking 1080 with DLSS enabled? How many bounces? Probably not the standard 4 bounces? I agree that 30xx cards can run this game, no doubt. But I think it's important to specify the settings, and how much they differ from the standard settings (meaning how much of the intended fidelity are we getting here).

I have the light bounces maxed out, and all detail settings in the alt-X menu set to Ultra then use DLSS on performance of course. We are supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games. That's why DLSS exists: to off-set the performance hit from running in RTX mode. Everyone should be using DLSS if they intend to play this game, even at any quality setting.

[Ray tracing is faster]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

We are supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games. That's why DLSS exists: to off-set the performance hit from running in RTX mode.

People really need to stop twisting the truth like this. Game developers see this and will thus continue to use DLSS as a crutch for badly optimized games, and you're all fine with it. DLSS was simply invented to improve upscaling and anti-aliasing, universal benefits. Only DLSS 3.5 has any intrinsic ties to ray tracing via ray reconstruction.

No one is "supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games." Who needs DLSS for Control anymore? Only people with low end cards. One day this will be true of RTX Remixed games as well.

PS: some ray tracing effects like RTXDI are actually faster than any non-RT solution.

[KillingArts]

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

We are supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games. That's why DLSS exists: to off-set the performance hit from running in RTX mode.

People really need to stop twisting the truth like this. Game developers see this and will thus continue to use DLSS as a crutch for badly optimized games, and you're all fine with it. DLSS was simply invented to improve upscaling and anti-aliasing, universal benefits. Only DLSS 3.5 has any intrinsic ties to ray tracing via ray reconstruction.

No one is "supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games." Who needs DLSS for Control anymore? Only people with low end cards. One day this will be true of RTX Remixed games as well.

PS: some ray tracing effects like RTXDI are actually faster than any non-RT solution.

I honestly believe that intelligent upscaling should be the goal for every game and it should become the norm eventually. As opposed to brute-forcing more and more pixels with very little benefit compared to an upscaled image. We could already have so much higher fidelity if we'd stayed on 1080p. Instead 4k is now the new max resolution for which games still have to provide sufficient performance, which then means fidelity is lower than it could potentially be.

While I think this can be viewed independent of RT, at the same time PT is a good example for fidelity that would otherwise not be possible with acceptable performance (in modern games). I'd prefer an upscaled image with more effects, more geometry and more lighting over a native one. Of course nobody should be forced. It should all be optional and scalable. But the fidelity ceiling can be higher with proper upscaling methods than without them.

This of course demands equally good upscaling for all GPU vendors. Which is not really the case today. Let's see what FSR3 brings to the table.

And it never - NEVER! - excuses bad optimization. Upscaling is supposed to enhance the experience and improve performance, not to be a substitute for optimization. It's supposed to make performance and/or fidelity possible that would not be possible otherwise. Not just bring us to the level an optimized game would achieve in native resolution anyway (like we've seen in Gollum and others).

[Ray tracing is faster]

Messaggio originale di KillingArts:

I honestly believe that intelligent upscaling should be the goal for every game and it should become the norm eventually. As opposed to brute-forcing more and more pixels with very little benefit compared to an upscaled image. We could already have so much higher fidelity if we'd stayed on 1080p. Instead 4k is now the new max resolution for which games still have to provide sufficient performance, which then means fidelity is lower than it could potentially be.

While I think this can be viewed independent of RT, at the same time PT is a good example for fidelity that would otherwise not be possible with acceptable performance (in modern games). I'd prefer an upscaled image with more effects, more geometry and more lighting over a native one. Of course nobody should be forced. It should all be optional and scalable. But the fidelity ceiling can be higher with proper upscaling methods than without them.

This of course demands equally good upscaling for all GPU vendors. Which is not really the case today. Let's see what FSR3 brings to the table.

And it never - NEVER! - excuses bad optimization. Upscaling is supposed to enhance the experience and improve performance, not to be a substitute for optimization. It's supposed to make performance and/or fidelity possible that would not be possible otherwise. Not just bring us to the level an optimized game would achieve in native resolution anyway (like we've seen in Gollum and others).

I suppose your assumption is that with further improvements, we can get upscaling without any practical consequences? Also, actual resolution increases stop being necessary once aliasing is gone. 5k (5120 x 2880) seems to accomplish this on PC monitors.

I think the freedom of choosing upscaling or native resolution should always be there, and I believe native resolution will always have benefits. Once we hit the point where resolution increases are completely unnecessary for end users (we're nearly there), then I wish the industry would switch to focusing on refresh rate increases.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

We are supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games. That's why DLSS exists: to off-set the performance hit from running in RTX mode.

People really need to stop twisting the truth like this.

Nothing I wrote is false. I wrote true information. Your interpretation of it is what's flawed here. Nvidia released DLSS when they first released RTX with the RTX 2000 series video cards together as companion technologies. I'll have to go back and try to find it but there was even an Nvidia advertisement video when it all first came out showcasing how we could enable RTX for better lighting then also enable DLSS to have smooth, higher FPS performance with ray tracing on. They are supposed to be used together exactly like I said. It's how Nvidia advertised it.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

No one is "supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games." Who needs DLSS for Control anymore? Only people with low end cards. One day this will be true of RTX Remixed games as well.

Everyone needs to use DLSS with ray tracing games until such time that we have fast enough video cards to run 60~100+ FPS with ray tracing on without DLSS. Since we don't have it then DLSS should be used combined with ray tracing always forever on every game. If people aren't using DLSS with ray tracing then they're doing it wrong.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

I suppose your assumption is that with further improvements, we can get upscaling without any practical consequences?

We already have that right now. DLSS is as good as native resolution and in some games it's even better than native resolution. DLSS is free performance with no negative impact on anything. There's no reason to ever not use it if it's available.

[cboath11]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

People really need to stop twisting the truth like this.

Nothing I wrote is false. I wrote true information. Your interpretation of it is what's flawed here. Nvidia released DLSS when they first released RTX with the RTX 2000 series video cards together as companion technologies. I'll have to go back and try to find it but there was even an Nvidia advertisement video when it all first came out showcasing how we could enable RTX for better lighting then also enable DLSS to have smooth, higher FPS performance with ray tracing on. They are supposed to be used together exactly like I said. It's how Nvidia advertised it.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

No one is "supposed to use DLSS with all RTX games." Who needs DLSS for Control anymore? Only people with low end cards. One day this will be true of RTX Remixed games as well.

Everyone needs to use DLSS with ray tracing games until such time that we have fast enough video cards to run 60~100+ FPS with ray tracing on without DLSS. Since we don't have it then DLSS should be used combined with ray tracing always forever on every game. If people aren't using DLSS with ray tracing then they're doing it wrong.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

I suppose your assumption is that with further improvements, we can get upscaling without any practical consequences?

We already have that right now. DLSS is as good as native resolution and in some games it's even better than native resolution. DLSS is free performance with no negative impact on anything. There's no reason to ever not use it if it's available.

What you wrote, as you wrote it, is a LIE. Not everyone needs to use DLSS while using RTX to get 60+ FPS at 1080p, possibly 1440p also. I would have to check if its this very thread where i posted a couple of screenshots of Cyberpunk with RTX on and not using DLSS where i was getting a 60+ FPS average.

You complained I posted screenshots of a 2 benchmark runs of Cyberpunk as this is the Portal RTX forum but in your posts you are including ALL RTX game as requiring DLSS to be on to achieve 60+ FPS and that is just not correct.

When RTX was released what you are saying WAS, as in the past, true but that is not the case now.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Messaggio originale di cboath11:

What you wrote, as you wrote it, is a LIE.

So first you're calling me a liar right here. Then there's this:

Messaggio originale di cboath11:

When RTX was released what you are saying WAS, as in the past, true

Then right here in the exact same comment you are also saying what I wrote was true.

You are contradicting yourself in your own comments all on your own. You're circling around yourself while trying to say.. I don't even know what you're trying to say and I don't think you even know what you're saying either. I'm not sure what your agenda is but I definitely have a solution to people like you: The block list. Goodbye. You can try to bother someone else with your circle-jerk-run-around nonsense. I won't have anything to do with people like you.

[Ray tracing is faster]

NVIDIA has never said you're "supposed" to use DLSS with ray tracing. And you're completely wrong about performance: an RTX 4090 can handle Control at 4k 100+ FPS for example, and Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition at well over 60 all without DLSS.

You appear to have only a very shallow knowledge of these technologies but think yourself an expert. DLSS upscaling has plenty of consequences even in the latest versions, using Quality preset at 4k for reference (so 1440p input, 4k output). Its upscaling visibly degrades the image (usually not noticeable when playing), while the anti-aliasing (DLAA) improves the image. Even the new Ray Reconstruction has shown its own unique degradation.

The improvement is usually more perceptible than the degradation, when the game in question is using traditional TAA at best. But the degradation is still there with DLSS and is visible if you look for it. This is why DLAA exists and is desirable.

Here's an example of DOOM Eternal using DLSS >3. The first screenshot is native 4k with its TSSAA 8x, the second is using DLSS Quality. The blatant degradation is highlighted. This is not a unique example.

https://i.imgur.com/UMwoJj3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GlmKksI.jpg

So yes, everything you say about ray tracing and DLSS is wildly incorrect.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

You appear to have only a very shallow knowledge of these technologies but think yourself an expert.

I never once claimed to be an expert on anything. You made that up. I did not write that. Please do not make up things I did not write.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

Here's an example of DOOM Eternal using DLSS >3.

I'm not wasting time looking at that because it has nothing to do with this game. I think you forgot where you are posting your comments and which forum this is.

[cboath11]

@Aquafawk you seem to be being daft on purpose. Did you not write "Everyone needs to use DLSS with ray tracing games until such time that we have fast enough video cards to run 60~100+ FPS with ray tracing on without DLSS. Since we don't have it then DLSS should be used combined with ray tracing always forever on every game. If people aren't using DLSS with ray tracing then they're doing it wrong."?

Not EVERYONE needs to use DLSS as there are already GPUs fast enough RIGHT NOW to run games with RTX at 60+ fps. Granted they are expensive but they are consumer GPUs and for sale now. Like the 4070 TI+ and 7900 XT+. The 7800 XT and 4070 might be in there but i would have to glance at either a GN or HUB video to be sure.

[cboath11]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

You appear to have only a very shallow knowledge of these technologies but think yourself an expert.

I never once claimed to be an expert on anything. You made that up. I did not write that. Please do not make up things I did not write.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

Here's an example of DOOM Eternal using DLSS >3.

I'm not wasting time looking at that because it has nothing to do with this game. I think you forgot where you are posting your comments and which forum this is.

You keep saying "everyone" and "gameS". Both of those are inclusive and when you write games that is plural meaning more than 1, as a opposed to singular if you were only referring to Portal RTX.

I hate beating a dead horse and I would advise all steam users to block you for being en expert troll.

[Ray tracing is faster]

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

I never once claimed to be an expert on anything. You made that up. I did not write that. Please do not make up things I did not write.

In any case, your knowledge is far beneath where you think it is, as the examples in my previous post demonstrate by debunking your false claims about NVIDIA marketing/intent, the performance potential of current graphics cards, and DLSS being "free performance."

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

Here's an example of DOOM Eternal using DLSS >3.

I'm not wasting time looking at that because it has nothing to do with this game. I think you forgot where you are posting your comments and which forum this is.

But your original comment wasn't specific to this game, it was about DLSS in general, as was this entire argument. Let me remind you:

Messaggio originale di 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

We already have that right now. DLSS is as good as native resolution and in some games it's even better than native resolution. DLSS is free performance with no negative impact on anything. There's no reason to ever not use it if it's available.

So what you really meant to say was, you're not going to look at my previous DOOM Eternal comparison because it proves you wrong which is something you're not emotionally prepared to handle.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

and DLSS being "free performance."

I own an Nvidia video card. I use DLSS in many games that support it. I can switch it on and it looks exactly the same as (and sometimes better than) original native resolution. The FPS increases (often times quite a lot). There is nothing negative at all that I can see with my eyes. It very much is exactly like I said: DLSS is free performance. I think you that you either don't own an Nvidia video card or if you do you've never used DLSS. I think that if you did you wouldn't be trying to argue this.

Messaggio originale di Ray tracing is faster:

So what you really meant to say was

NO! I DID NOT "mean to say that" and I did not say that. For the second time: Please stop making up things I did not say. I did not "mean to say" anything else. I said exactly what I intended to say and nothing more.

Okay look: This game supports DLSS. Without it many video cards have poor performance, in this game. Therefore I think that anyone who plays THIS GAME should use DLSS in THIS GAME. As I said above: There is nothing negative about it. There is no reason at all not to use it. Anyone who complains about poor performance in this game probably isn't using DLSS in this game. With DLSS on this game runs great, looks awesome and is very smooth. I think that using DLSS in this game is the optimal way to enjoy it.