Unit cap?

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

Is there a unit cap? and if yes (which sucks) then how low/high is it?

Please don't let there be a unit cap... it's one of the worst things in any RTS...

[Xelzidar]

Maximum unit cap, is 300, Vanguard and Infernal need to build Supply Depot for Vanguard and Meatfarm for Infernal and with Celestial you dont have to do any of that as you start with 300 out of 300 unit cap.

[HighLanderPony]

300 cap but the avg MP game you don't even get to 200ish before it's over.

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

Wow... that's a very low cap... I guess I'll skip this game then.

[Xelzidar]

I think 300 unit cap is pretty flexible considered most rts games got an 200 unit cap. Beside you rarely reach that cap. Unless you reach the late game maybe, but i have rarely seen late games in Stormgate thus far.

[GreatGooglyMoogly]

LoL Buggin what RTS you know considerably higher CAP in the time frame, thats in beta

Have you played a real RTS? Sandbox'in doesnt count

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

Originally posted by DaddyDerfOrNothing:

LoL Buggin what RTS you know considerably higher CAP in the time frame, thats in beta

Have you played a real RTS? Sandbox'in doesnt count

I've played planetary annihilation and supreme commander (SupCom with a mod that makes everything use 0 unit cap due to the maps being massive and building counting as units for some reason), I've also played dawn of war and a bunch of other games where the unit caps either don't exist or are moddable.

Also what in the world do you mean by "real RTS"?

[Reblochonbienchaud]

Imagine to skip a RTS game cause of a "low" unit cap
SC2 is one of the greatest game of all time and has a unit cap of 200
This is so cringe bruh

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

Originally posted by fr0zeee:

Imagine to skip a RTS game cause of a "low" unit cap
SC2 is one of the greatest game of all time and has a unit cap of 200
This is so cringe bruh

SC2 is mid IMO, the unit cap is holding it back.

[Zerachan]

SC2WoL was the greatest rts of all time for sure, boasting superior quality,unithandling and so on no matter what other game you compare to, even when comparing to later expansions. >.<

Current SC2 is nowhere near as amazing, but it's certainly one of the better titles out there.

Stormgate however feels and plays worse than even quickly slapped together stuff made by indies.

Originally posted by ☼Solaire Of Astora☼:

Originally posted by DaddyDerfOrNothing:

LoL Buggin what RTS you know considerably higher CAP in the time frame, thats in beta

Have you played a real RTS? Sandbox'in doesnt count

I've played planetary annihilation and supreme commander (SupCom with a mod that makes everything use 0 unit cap due to the maps being massive and building counting as units for some reason), I've also played dawn of war and a bunch of other games where the unit caps either don't exist or are moddable.

Also what in the world do you mean by "real RTS"?

And for you I'd just suggest a look at Zero-K considering the titles you mentioned, it's also completely free so no need to spend even if you want to try or experiment with anything there.

[Undead Leader]

Originally posted by ☼Solaire Of Astora☼:

Is there a unit cap? and if yes (which sucks) then how low/high is it?

Please don't let there be a unit cap... it's one of the worst things in any RTS...

Ya, but achieving it kinda destroys it as the input delay gets worse overtime. I think I had an input delay of around 10 seconds in a co-op game. Not sure why they set the cap that high if they can't afford it.

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

Originally posted by Undead Leader:

Originally posted by ☼Solaire Of Astora☼:

Is there a unit cap? and if yes (which sucks) then how low/high is it?

Please don't let there be a unit cap... it's one of the worst things in any RTS...

Ya, but achieving it kinda destroys it as the input delay gets worse overtime. I think I had an input delay of around 10 seconds in a co-op game. Not sure why they set the cap that high if they can't afford it.

I can have thousands of units in planetary annihilation with zero issues, I don't see how it can be so hard to just disable an arbitrary limiter that feels unnecessary 9/10 times.

Just like in Total War, where the player is held back from doing truly epic battles due to an arbitrary limit of 20 sqauds in an army (granted, multiple armies can join the same battle if they are close enough).

[Lelouch]

You're supposed to do microgestion of individuals units, thats why its pointless to have infinite cap at least in 1v1 i dont think many game reach 300 cap before they end...
I guess in custom games you'll be able to increase population cap however

[tacohunter]

Originally posted by ☼Solaire Of Astora☼:

Originally posted by Undead Leader:

Ya, but achieving it kinda destroys it as the input delay gets worse overtime. I think I had an input delay of around 10 seconds in a co-op game. Not sure why they set the cap that high if they can't afford it.

I can have thousands of units in planetary annihilation with zero issues, I don't see how it can be so hard to just disable an arbitrary limiter that feels unnecessary 9/10 times.

Just like in Total War, where the player is held back from doing truly epic battles due to an arbitrary limit of 20 sqauds in an army (granted, multiple armies can join the same battle if they are close enough).

There are very real and very technical reasons for unit caps that involve game play reasons and limitations. Personally I understand that you may want very high or no unit caps, the thing is the vast majority of rts players tend to gravitate towards games that have lower unit caps while also allowing less advance hardware to be used to game.
I don't like any of the games you've listed that use very high or no unit caps. To much is sacrificed to make it work for my enjoyment. But to each their own my brother.

[Stavrozium]

Unit caps are necessary for keeping the game playable;
having hundreds/thousands of units will slow the game down,
mostly because your PC has to render all those unit models/textures,
but also due to the amount of scripts a unit has, pathing, etc..
(scripts and such has less impact, but the more units, the bigger this impact)
This is also the main reason why many rts games are so zoomed in.
(since zooming out means your PC has to render a lot more models/textures)

The way they fixed this in f.e. supreme commander,
is by replacing the unit models with icons, if you zoom out;
this game actually slows down when you zoom in, instead of when zooming out.
In f.e. cossacks, where you could train 1000s of units,
the unit models and scripts are very basic; (they have no abilities)
whereas in this game, and SC2 and WC3, many units have abilities,
and they often have "fancy" 3D models, (HD, or high resolution models)
which greatly increases the impact on performance, with these units.

RTS Game developers really need to learn,
that "fancy" graphics in RTS games usually isnt a good idea,
as it severely limits what you can do with a game.. (like f.e. popcaps, and mods)
(WC3 reforged is a great example of this;
my old PC could handle the old WC3 just fine,
(as well as Starcraft2/supreme commander/cossacks)
while WC3 reforged simply didnt work, even with "classic" graphics..)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Popcaps are also used for balancing;
making it lower allows losing players to make comebacks,
while if the popcap would be (f.e.) 1000, then losing an army,
while an opponent doesnt, means you automatically lose,
since you can then both keep making new units. ( => snowballing)

In cossacks this does work, because units are very fragile,
they can die from 1 attacks, and cannons can turn the tide of battles,
while in this game, each unit is more like 5-10 units, HP/DPS wise, in comparison.
In supreme commander, buildings also cost pop,
which means that having more economy/production/defenses means smaller armies.
(while in this game, and WC3/SC2, it is only economy, due to workers)
---------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, in Stormgate, the popcap really is lower, compared to SC2.
Sure, the cap itself is 300, but the smallest combat units all cost 2 pop.
(while in SC2, the smallest units cost 0.5/1/2 supply)
The only exception being workers, s.c.o.u.t.s and fiends, which cost 1,
but compare these to zerglings in SC2, which cost 0.5 pop.
The biggest units cost 8, 12 and 15 pop, compared to 6 for SC2.
Luminite can have 12 workers, compared to 16+ for SC2,
however Thorium can then have much more workers, (instead of max 3)
so in practice, resource bases tend to have a little bit more workers, than in SC2.
All of this combined, results in having less combat units than in SC2; at full popcap.

TLDR: In general, the pop cost of units is x1.5-x2 compared to SC2,
so technically, the popcap in Stormgate is more like 150-200,
so slightly lower, at least when comparing it to Starcraft 2.

What i would like to see, is configurable popcaps, at least in custom games,
so that players can decide for themselves how big the popcap should be.
for competitive games, the popcap should remain low, (for balancing)
but if casual players just want to have large battles, they should be able to.