Design advice?

[Resoula]

Hello, I am planning on buying this game soon. The management and logistical aspects of it look incredible to me. The problem is, I don't know whole lot about ships. I am learning about the armor and the weapons while researching this game. Could anyone point me towards any advice regarding building ships in 1890? Or provide any advice manually? What gun size is smart to have? Generally, how is wise to spread the armor? How many shots should I have in the guns? How important are secondary/tertiary guns? Thank you.

[MAD-3R_Marauder]

Guns:
In 1890, the big guns are absolutely _horrible_ (Quality -2) _and_ they can't be upgraded (once your nation develops better guns, normally you can refit a ship to mount those improved guns (of the same caliber). This does NOT work with Quality -2 guns.
I don't know about other nations, but Germany has Quality -1 8" guns in 1890, so I use those on my B(attleships) and CA, the more the better (you can put a twin turret fore and aft and several single-gun turrets along the sides)

Your big guns will still not hit a lot, so adding a metric f-ton of secondaries and tertiary guns is absolutely vital
Personally, I go for 6" secondary and 4" tertiary guns, but 5" and 3" can also work
Note: I'd prefer a B or CA with 6 x 8" main guns and 24 x 6" secondaries over a B/CA with 10 x 8" and 12 x 6"

Ammo:
More, I said more, don't you hear me, more!
On a more serious note, the ammo the game allocates on auto-design, is way too little.
Up to 6" I try to go with at least 200, preferably 250 shells per gun
Up to 10" guns, it's 150 shells
And anything larger (at least until guns and firecon improve significantly) around 125 to 130.

Armor:
When you design a ship, you can look at how much armor at a given range your guns can pen, armor accordingly.
Something else to mention, 2" of armor is considered "splinter-prove", meaning, splinters from exploding shells can't penetrate. Having at least 2" of Deck, Extended Belt and Upper Belt is non-negotiable for my big ships (B and CA) with 2" of Deck Extended desirable but not always possible.

Generally:
Early firecontrol is non-existent (one of the reason to go with a plethora of secondary/tertiary guns...throw enough s**t at the wall and some will stick), so fights tend to take place at knife-fight ranges...which makes submerged torps very valuable - and since damage-control is equally non-existent, extremely dangeorus.

Keep also in mind that no matter what, those early ships will be obsolescent within perhaps 8 years and obsolete by 1905, when you can build actual dreadnoughts with 12" quality -1 guns.

That's it for now, I'm sure others will chime in :)

[Resoula]

Originally posted by MAD-3R_Marauder:

Guns:
In 1890, the big guns are absolutely _horrible_ (Quality -2) _and_ they can't be upgraded (once your nation develops better guns, normally you can refit a ship to mount those improved guns (of the same caliber). This does NOT work with Quality -2 guns.
I don't know about other nations, but Germany has Quality -1 8" guns in 1890, so I use those on my B(attleships) and CA, the more the better (you can put a twin turret fore and aft and several single-gun turrets along the sides)

Your big guns will still not hit a lot, so adding a metric f-ton of secondaries and tertiary guns is absolutely vital
Personally, I go for 6" secondary and 4" tertiary guns, but 5" and 3" can also work
Note: I'd prefer a B or CA with 6 x 8" main guns and 24 x 6" secondaries over a B/CA with 10 x 8" and 12 x 6"

Ammo:
More, I said more, don't you hear me, more!
On a more serious note, the ammo the game allocates on auto-design, is way too little.
Up to 6" I try to go with at least 200, preferably 250 shells per gun
Up to 10" guns, it's 150 shells
And anything larger (at least until guns and firecon improve significantly) around 125 to 130.

Armor:
When you design a ship, you can look at how much armor at a given range your guns can pen, armor accordingly.
Something else to mention, 2" of armor is considered "splinter-prove", meaning, splinters from exploding shells can't penetrate. Having at least 2" of Deck, Extended Belt and Upper Belt is non-negotiable for my big ships (B and CA) with 2" of Deck Extended desirable but not always possible.

Generally:
Early firecontrol is non-existent (one of the reason to go with a plethora of secondary/tertiary guns...throw enough s**t at the wall and some will stick), so fights tend to take place at knife-fight ranges...which makes submerged torps very valuable - and since damage-control is equally non-existent, extremely dangeorus.

Keep also in mind that no matter what, those early ships will be obsolescent within perhaps 8 years and obsolete by 1905, when you can build actual dreadnoughts with 12" quality -1 guns.

That's it for now, I'm sure others will chime in :)

Thanks! This info combined with some other stuff I'm seeing in guides is helping me understand a lot more about the game.

[FogMan]

It depends. I use a couple of designs but yes a pile of secondaries. I don't use a huge amount of armor, big guns don't hit a very often at in 1890 with low accuracy and low fire rate, smaller guns have a hard time penetrating armor. Torpedoes are deadly. Later around 1900-1905 accuracy increases quickly as does fire rate and your battleships are obsolete. 18kt is standard for battleships. Transition to dreadnoughts is a big change.

I build a couple of large fast armored cruisers usually aiming for 23kt they are really expensive but valuable for dealing with raiders or being raiders themselves. These are also useful to be converted into your first aircraft carriers later.

[khorne8]

Originally posted by Resoula:

Could anyone point me towards any advice regarding building ships in 1890?

MAD-3R_Marauder's advice is good. I'll chip in with an alternative: don't play the 1890 start at first. Designs are really weird at the extreme low end of the tech tree. Get a couple of campaigns under your belt first.

IMHO the 1900 start is really the default. A big advantage of the 1900 start for a beginner is that you can design your starting ships, which you can use to build a really solid initial fleet that will get you started off from the right place. The core of this fleet should be two classes of large ship, a battleship and an armored cruiser. Obviously there are a lot of nuances and places where veteran players will argue, but I believe these are the basics:

Battleship
Main battery: 2x2 of the largest -1 quality guns you have, either 11" or 12"
Secondary battery: 16+ 6" guns with 200+ rounds per gun
Armor: 8-10" on belt turrets and CT, 4" upper belt, 2" secondary battery, 2" extremities
Speed: 18-19 knots
Don't use cramped or low freeboard

Armored cruiser
Main battery: Usually 2x2 10", but consider 8" or 9" if higher quality than 10"
Secondary battery: 12+ 6" guns with 200+ rounds per gun
Armor: Keep the 2" areas, halve everything else
Speed: 22-23 knots, some go for 24 but I believe it's too expensive in 1900

[Andrew Cree]

Couple of things I've not seen:

Fewer than 4 guns on target inflicts an accuracy penalty

Gun calibres are 'grouped', with guns from the same group (i.e. 6" and 4" guns) providing additional accuracy penalties due to it being difficult to identify exactly how tall a splash is at a distance.

[ulzgoroth]

I consider 2" belt, BE, deck, and DE the threshold for a truely armored ship due to wanting to as much as possible make splinter damage to the engines impossible.

[ulzgoroth]

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Couple of things I've not seen:

Fewer than 4 guns on target inflicts an accuracy penalty

Pretty sure it's fewer than 3, not fewer than 4.

Also, just 1 gun doesn't get the modifier, so really it's an 'exactly 2 guns' penalty.

[Resoula]

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Couple of things I've not seen:

Fewer than 4 guns on target inflicts an accuracy penalty

Gun calibres are 'grouped', with guns from the same group (i.e. 6" and 4" guns) providing additional accuracy penalties due to it being difficult to identify exactly how tall a splash is at a distance.

I am not sure that I understand this. Are you saying that it is unwise to bring things like secondary guns if I do not have at least 4 of them?

[Resoula]

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

I consider 2" belt, BE, deck, and DE the threshold for a truely armored ship due to wanting to as much as possible make splinter damage to the engines impossible.

Does this include the conning tower and turrets? I am not quite sure how armor on those should work.

[Resoula]

Originally posted by khorne8:

Originally posted by Resoula:

Could anyone point me towards any advice regarding building ships in 1890?

MAD-3R_Marauder's advice is good. I'll chip in with an alternative: don't play the 1890 start at first. Designs are really weird at the extreme low end of the tech tree. Get a couple of campaigns under your belt first.

IMHO the 1900 start is really the default. A big advantage of the 1900 start for a beginner is that you can design your starting ships, which you can use to build a really solid initial fleet that will get you started off from the right place. The core of this fleet should be two classes of large ship, a battleship and an armored cruiser. Obviously there are a lot of nuances and places where veteran players will argue, but I believe these are the basics:

Battleship
Main battery: 2x2 of the largest -1 quality guns you have, either 11" or 12"
Secondary battery: 16+ 6" guns with 200+ rounds per gun
Armor: 8-10" on belt turrets and CT, 4" upper belt, 2" secondary battery, 2" extremities
Speed: 18-19 knots
Don't use cramped or low freeboard

Armored cruiser
Main battery: Usually 2x2 10", but consider 8" or 9" if higher quality than 10"
Secondary battery: 12+ 6" guns with 200+ rounds per gun
Armor: Keep the 2" areas, halve everything else
Speed: 22-23 knots, some go for 24 but I believe it's too expensive in 1900

Oh good information! I did not know that ONLY 1900 could let you customize your starting fleet. I've seen videos of the crazy 1890s designs. Perhaps I will start there then, as it definitely sounds more challenging in 1890 based on what I have seen.

[ulzgoroth]

Originally posted by Resoula:

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

I consider 2" belt, BE, deck, and DE the threshold for a truely armored ship due to wanting to as much as possible make splinter damage to the engines impossible.

Does this include the conning tower and turrets? I am not quite sure how armor on those should work.

Splinter protection does apply to turrets, turret splinter damage is a very real concern. I am not sure if conning towers can take splinter damage. I'm pretty sure I've never designed a ship that was allowed to have conning tower armor and had less than 2", though.

Complication on turrets: if they have armor no more than 2" and only a single gun, they're not fully-enclosed turrets, which saves weight but means that even with 2" armor it's possible for them to be disabled by splinters (though much less likely than an unprotected turret).

I do build some light cruisers with limited gun protection. Engine damage kills. Turrets being disabled isn't good, but it's much more survivable. (Turret explosions do kill, but they're rare and a light cruiser can't really have enough armor to be safe there anyhow.)

[Andrew Cree]

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Couple of things I've not seen:

Fewer than 4 guns on target inflicts an accuracy penalty

Pretty sure it's fewer than 3, not fewer than 4.

Also, just 1 gun doesn't get the modifier, so really it's an 'exactly 2 guns' penalty.

Funny, I get the 'small battery' penalty with 1 gun, 2 guns and 3 guns.

Originally posted by Resoula:

I am not sure that I understand this. Are you saying that it is unwise to bring things like secondary guns if I do not have at least 4 of them?

Technically, 8 as both Secondary and Tertiary guns get distributed evenly along each broadside - so 8 Secondary guns would give you 4 on the Port broadside and 4 on the Starboard broadside.

Originally posted by Resoula:

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

I consider 2" belt, BE, deck, and DE the threshold for a truely armored ship due to wanting to as much as possible make splinter damage to the engines impossible.

Does this include the conning tower and turrets? I am not quite sure how armor on those should work.

For the Conning Tower, a hit here can be devastating as it can kill both the Commanding Officer and reduce your Crew Quality significantly. My personal preference is to armour this against 6" shellfire.

Turrets are trickier. I won't give a CL better than 2" splinter protection. CAs and up tend to be armoured to resist their own gunfire at around 5,000 yards.

[Resoula]

Thanks all! I do have a question about torpedoes. Do you guys see any value in torps on ships bigger than destroyers? Assuming playing rear admirals mode and being aware of the flotilla attack command.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Resoula:

Thanks all! I do have a question about torpedoes. Do you guys see any value in torps on ships bigger than destroyers? Assuming playing rear admirals mode and being aware of the flotilla attack command.

I remember all my attemtps to remove torps from my large ships and how stupid I felt each time without them.

[Resoula]

Originally posted by Lucky:

Originally posted by Resoula:

Thanks all! I do have a question about torpedoes. Do you guys see any value in torps on ships bigger than destroyers? Assuming playing rear admirals mode and being aware of the flotilla attack command.

I remember all my attemtps to remove torps from my large ships and how stupid I felt each time without them.

Does the AI utilize the torps on bigger ships in rear admiral's mode?