Why there is no White Sea–Baltic Canal?

[xlq0625]

Soviet Union built it in 1933! Why it have no use in this game?
Since Denmark is integrated into Germany, when Russia went to war with Germany the only way to move new ship outside Baltic is to end the war.This makes the Russian unable to reinforce their north fleet or pacific fleet.Which would be a problem especially when fighting both Germany and Japan.
There is certainly some shipbuilding capability in Russian far east. Yet in this game, all ship must be created in shipbuilding area.As if there is the only place that such a nation have shipyard.
Yes, this is the geopolitical reality faced by Russia, but the Soviet put a lot of effort to overcome this difficulty! Beside the White Sea–Baltic Canal, the also connect the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea by building the Volga-Don Canal. Why Panama Canal and Suez Canal have no limitation on the size of ship that can be allow to pass through, while the White Sea–Baltic Canal is completely non-exist?

[Andrew Cree]

It's too shallow.

There's a depth restriction of 3.5m, which isn't enough to support anything bigger than about 3,000t.

You certainly couldn't send a heavy warship along the route.


Note that both the Panama and Suez canals have been upgraded throughout their existence to support larger warships and cargo vessels.

[xlq0625]

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

It's too shallow.

There's a depth restriction of 3.5m, which isn't enough to support anything bigger than about 3,000t.

Well,currently not even 600t KE can be transport between Baltic and White Sea without the permission of Germany.Why can't my SS,which less than 2000t be transport across the canal?

And since the Panama and Suez canal could be upgrade, why can't there be an option to upgrade the White Sea–Baltic Canal as well?

Why can't we deploy new ship in other sea which can and do have shipyard?

Why make Denmark an inseparable part of Germany?

Why open the water way require to take the whole German mainland?

[Andrew Cree]

Because in 2008 the White Sea-Baltic Canal was still incapable of transporting large ships - 75 years after being built.

Subs are even worse for shallows than regular ships, they'd run aground for sure.

Note that Panama and Suez don't get an upgrade option - they were upgraded regularly throughout their existence in the Real World thereby allowing them to transport any ship in game.

Single deployment zones is for simplicity - I believe there were AI issues when multiple build zones were implemented. This is compensated in part by allowing r multiple 'home zones' instead.

Denmark isn't part of Germany - but it's not a colony either.

Not sure about what you mean 'open up the waterway required to take the whole German mainland' - nations cannot be conquered or invaded.

[xlq0625]

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Because in 2008 the White Sea-Baltic Canal was still incapable of transporting large ships - 75 years after being built.

Subs are even worse for shallows than regular ships, they'd run aground for sure.

Note that Panama and Suez don't get an upgrade option - they were upgraded regularly throughout their existence in the Real World thereby allowing them to transport any ship in game.

If the Panama and Suez can be upgrade in real life, there should be an hypothetical upgrade for the White Sea–Baltic Canal,that can happen for some price.
Even if such hypothetical upgrade won't take place in the game due to some reason.There should at least have a passage for 600t KE and other small ship.
And even if the canal can't allow submarine to travel across, they should be able to sneak pass the Oresund Strait or some other strait in that area.Germany has successfully sneak some of their SS through Gibraltar in WWII right?

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Denmark isn't part of Germany - but it's not a colony either.

It is treated as part of Germany.
Since in the game, Germany. a nation that does not have those strait connect the Baltic and the North Sea as their territorial waters and does not have the land on either side of those strait as territorial land, would automatically block it during war. Denmark have no say on their own land.
Sure, Denmark stay in neutral that in favor for Germany in WWI,get conquered easily in WWII,that doesn't mean Denmark is automatically sided with one who controlled Germany.And an invasion against Denmark to enforce your control or pre-war diplomacy/coup should be required. So there should be an independent region named "Denmark"same as Norway.

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Not sure about what you mean 'open up the waterway required to take the whole German mainland' - nations cannot be conquered or invaded.

I know that "homeland" area can't be select as naval invasion target.Do you mean that they also can't be ceded in peace deal? I haven't got any peace deal that can allow me to take any land so I don't know how it work.
If that is the case, there is literally nothing to do when you fight Germany as Russia.AI just stop engage you in Baltic and blockade you in north sea and you can't do any thing about it. It also does not reflect the fate of Germany after WWII.

[Stele]

Why would AI have issues with multiple build zones? Other zones could have limited shipbuilding capacity with lowered tonage and extended construction time and AI would choose them only if they don't have superiority in primary area for example.
As for transporting subs, Germans got several to Black Sea by road and rivers. Danube is better connected than Dwina, but I'm sure they could do so if they really wanted. If we'll get Turkey and Black sea region some day, they could have even another possible build area.

[Mr Tarno]

Originally posted by Stele:

Why would AI have issues with multiple build zones? Other zones could have limited shipbuilding capacity with lowered tonage and extended construction time and AI would choose them only if they don't have superiority in primary area for example.
As for transporting subs, Germans got several to Black Sea by road and rivers. Danube is better connected than Dwina, but I'm sure they could do so if they really wanted. If we'll get Turkey and Black sea region some day, they could have even another possible build area.

This you should ask the dev as for why the AI have issues with multiple build zone

Originally posted by xlq0625:

It is treated as part of Germany.
Since in the game, Germany. a nation that does not have those strait connect the Baltic and the North Sea as their territorial waters and does not have the land on either side of those strait as territorial land, would automatically block it during war. Denmark have no say on their own land.

Maybe rather than thinking everything should work out in real-world logic, why not think of it as german invade Denmark in a case of war because they need to control all the strait around Denmark. Even if you want to think realistically, remember this game is set in the early 20th century, and territorial sea law didn't really take effect until the UN was established, in this era nation control sea as far as their ship allows them to project their power so even if all the various straits are controlled by Denmark what will stop Germany, a superpower at the time from blasting their way out of Denmark and to exert control over them

[Andrew Cree]

Originally posted by xlq0625:

If the Panama and Suez can be upgrade in real life, there should be an hypothetical upgrade for the White Sea–Baltic Canal,that can happen for some price.
Even if such hypothetical upgrade won't take place in the game due to some reason.There should at least have a passage for 600t KE and other small ship.
And even if the canal can't allow submarine to travel across, they should be able to sneak pass the Oresund Strait or some other strait in that area.Germany has successfully sneak some of their SS through Gibraltar in WWII right?

Passage is all or nothing.

Have you actually examined the Oresund Strait and compared it to the Strait of Gibraltar?

Oresund is much shallower, with a max depth of 40m vs Gibraltar's 900m.

Oresund is narrower, minimum of 4km vs 13km

Oresund is significantly longer at 118km, the Strait of Gibraltar barely merits a length.

Despite that, of 62 submarines the Germans sent into the Mediterranean during WW2, 9 were sunk and 10 damaged as they tried to pass the Straits of Gibraltar - 19 out of 62 were detected and successfully attacked.

It's not impossible to sneak through, but the odds are stacked against you.

Take a Type VIIC U-boot for example. It's 9.6m high, whilst some battleships had a draught of over 10m, which means that to be sure of passing undetected you need to be submerged at in excess of 20m - and don't forget to allow a few metres for debris on the ship floor. Submerged, it has a range of 150km at 7.4km/h (4 knots) - meaning you need to charge the batteries, make the run and hope like heck you don't have to make any excess manoeuvres before exiting and hopefully recharging again.

Looking at it another way, it costs you a day's operations just to pass through the Oresund Strait.

It is treated as part of Germany.
Since in the game, Germany. a nation that does not have those strait connect the Baltic and the North Sea as their territorial waters and does not have the land on either side of those strait as territorial land, would automatically block it during war. Denmark have no say on their own land.
Sure, Denmark stay in neutral that in favor for Germany in WWI,get conquered easily in WWII,that doesn't mean Denmark is automatically sided with one who controlled Germany.And an invasion against Denmark to enforce your control or pre-war diplomacy/coup should be required. So there should be an independent region named "Denmark"same as Norway.

Nope. Most countries aren't included in the game.

If Germany controlled Denmark, key ports would show up in battles against Germany and you would encounter shore batteries (and air bases) in that area.

I know that "homeland" area can't be select as naval invasion target.Do you mean that they also can't be ceded in peace deal? I haven't got any peace deal that can allow me to take any land so I don't know how it work.
If that is the case, there is literally nothing to do when you fight Germany as Russia.AI just stop engage you in Baltic and blockade you in north sea and you can't do any thing about it. It also does not reflect the fate of Germany after WWII.

Click on the flags on the Map tab, and it will bring up information about that territory. A value of 'home' means that you cannot invade that territory, nor can it be ceded in a peace deal.

You'll also find some colonies (e.g. South Africa and India) have values higher than the best you can score in a war (capped at 20 points when the enemies economy collapses if memory serves).

I rather suspect that the post-WW2 fate of Germany is part of the reason why there is no option for a Cold War start at present.

[xlq0625]

Originally posted by gatau lagi dah:

Maybe rather than thinking everything should work out in real-world logic, why not think of it as german invade Denmark in a case of war because they need to control all the strait around Denmark.

The problem is that Germany and Germany alone can invade Denmark. There should be a separate region of Denmark that you as the player can do something about! Not just waiting what the opponent throw at you as it was now. Nation in real life don't just give up when they found themself in a strategic disadvantage position.

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

Passage is all or nothing.

If it was the limitation of the engine, I'm OK with it. But in that case, bring Denmark into the game and make it something you can fight for. If Germany can always bully Denmark at their will, why would they spent money on building Kiel Canal?

Originally posted by Andrew Cree:

I rather suspect that the post-WW2 fate of Germany is part of the reason why there is no option for a Cold War start at present.

Theoretically you can delete Germany as a playable nation in the cold war scenario like A-H in post WWI scenario.And then make the west Germany part of US and east Germany part of Soviet Union. Since having a flag over region in this game does not always mean it is under occupation of that nation, it can also mean it have a government that is allied with that nation.