Wonder what happened to Torchlight 2 Devs? Look at whats coming!!!!

[Bludbonez]

All of us ARPG fans. Look at whats on the horizon! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W47-SDQtX0 Very excited!

[steffire3]

Originally posted by Bludbonez:

Wonder what happened to Torchlight 2 Devs?
Look at whats coming!!!!

All of us ARPG fans. Look at whats on the horizon! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W47-SDQtX0 Very excited!

I'm glad for these veteran developers that they get another opportunity.

If I take the notes of this video at face value then it's not new ideas that MoonBeast will champion - rather it's a combination of ideas from proven past games including Grim Dawn and features from other games in the genre. A fair decision and it keeps up with the competition and all the player feedback the combined industry has learned from.

Destructive Environments (a more recent idea in other genres) may make this feel more like a Voxel game unless there's a limit to how much mass can be deleted from the map.

MoonBeast is not Torchlight, it's not Grim Dawn, It is it's own franchise and will have to stand on it's own in a competitive time with many sequels in genre ready to satisfy the market including past games upheld by mods or expansions long past their initial life-span.

Let's say in theory (and idea from the video): No Mana Potions and No Cool-Downs.
Will that require players to leech targets and use skills to maintain resources?
It could work although will take plenty of Player feedback to make good.

One aspect the video notes didn't mention is planned End Game Content because Torchlight does lack that without mods and Grim Dawn solved that topic with Expansions.

When Torchlight initially arrived; it had external advantages: having developers fresh from Mythos ready to explore a new theme, D3 Auction House intrigue, and offering another choice besides Path of Exile. Now the demand of quality is higher than ever for a new franchise to fulfill like MoonBeast - with 20+ years of past proven rival game designs and expectations from players towards other competitors; we'll just have to play the time game and await to see who comes out on top for this generation of designs.

It appears that the early plan for modded games with MoonBeast will be inside Servers however what level of control or maintenance will that require for the community or mod-authors? This is very different from past games that can be modded and is more akin to modded Minecraft servers - an idea that was also considered during TL3's development.

= = = =

Yet all of that is also up for grabs in terms of business -

because until we know what the Publisher and Monetary model looks like -
it's all just promises until they prove what their long term business plan is.

And that goes for every rival game mentioned in that video.

We have many kinds of players including veteran players of the genre who know the patterns of these business ventures. We know what to expect. We support the creativity however are also wary of external factors that have nothing to do with game design.

Blizzard North
Flagship Studios
Runic Games
Echtra Games

Every one of those names should still be with us today... let's not make the same business mistakes as those times. It's a long history.

Protect the business - protect the future;
game design and player support will parallel.

MoonBeast has an opportunity to avoid those mistakes - let's hope they do.

[Nakos]

Originally posted by steffire3:

Blizzard North
Flagship Studios
Runic Games
Echtra Games

Every one of those names should still be with us today... let's not make the same business mistakes as those times. It's a long history.

I certainly agree that each of those enterprises represented a lot of talent, and we the players are poorer for their dissolution (Although I believe that as of this writing Echtra Games does still exist, but now they work for Zynga and are probably working on mobile games).

But that said ... you do have to understand that the realities of game creation require more than creativity, artwork and coding.

It takes finance, marketing, publishing, administration.

Blizzard North, Runic Games (and technically Echtra Games as well) all chose to sell themselves to a corporate parent. They did that for good reasons: Because they were the creative people, but were NOT good at the administration-finance-marketing-publishing piece of the job. They got the freedom to create, and they got years of it. That's why Diablo, and Diablo 2 (and really the entire hack-and-slash ARPG genre) exist.

But yes, that also can mean giving up final financial control (and did in the case of Blizzard North and Runic). If you're not making money, then ... eventually, a corporate parent is going to pull the plug.

My point is, that it's a trade off. Having a big corporate parent isn't an unmitigated evil.


That's not to say that smaller studios can't make a completely independent go of it either. (Crate Entertainment, Red Hook and Weather Factory (and Failbetter) are all examples of fairly successful, small indie studios that don't have a big corporate parent). But that too is a trade off, most of those companies do it with the understanding that they're never likely to be as big or have as wide a reach as the studios that do work with the bigger publishers.

[HiFive]

Originally posted by Bludbonez:

All of us ARPG fans. Look at whats on the horizon! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W47-SDQtX0 Very excited!

Well, I hope they are going to stick to what they are good at, and not try to make some different type of game (as in Hob, as in TL3 mobile game attempt). I will be very interested to see what they come up with!!!

[oldrocker99]

And look at BG3, which is the full game with no season passes or microtransactions. And is selling like there's no tomorrow.

[steffire3]

Originally posted by Nakos:

... ... ...

It takes finance, marketing, publishing, administration.

... ... ...

But yes, that also can mean giving up final financial control (and did in the case of Blizzard North and Runic). If you're not making money, then ... eventually, a corporate parent is going to pull the plug.

My point is, that it's a trade off. Having a big corporate parent isn't an unmitigated evil.


That's not to say that smaller studios can't make a completely independent go of it either. (Crate Entertainment, Red Hook and Weather Factory (and Failbetter) are all examples of fairly successful, small indie studios that don't have a big corporate parent). But that too is a trade off, most of those companies do it with the understanding that they're never likely to be as big or have as wide a reach as the studios that do work with the bigger publishers.

Agreed.

The big corporate parental Publishers have ensured that these past franchises have survived and continue to remain viable for business via sequels albeit different from their original product forms that some players prefer.

However the video focuses on Erich's resume of D1, D2, TL1, and TL2 near the beginning of it's exposition hence building an expectation that MoonBeast has a combined direct experience that is available to it's development through Erich's entry that seems to include the ideas from Blizzard North and Runic Games rather than the Publishers who continued with D3 and TL3.

While D3, D4, TL3, (and even TL:Infinite as it carries the Torchlight name) have been able to exist because of Publisher involvement or contracts; it doesn't necessarily define an overall positive rating from players altogether (and Erich as a developer himself was not present for those games).

And while this view could be attributed to player opinion and preference - it does provide another option for developers to consider if seeking to develop games that are very different yet may result in Publisher shutdown (Runic Games - HoB), or try to mix many different genres together only to receive mixed response from Mmo players and Arpg players (Echtra Games - TL3). This could also be attributed to developer burnout seeking to develop outside the genre (HoB), creativity outside the genre (TL3), or hindsight that we know the results of these business decisions and such data was not available to the developers at those times (although combined player feedback was never lacking).

The video also briefly mentions one of the rival games in this current upcoming generation of development "Titan Quest 2" and if I'm not mistaken is technically under the Embracer Group umbrella (ironically part of the same business alliance that currently includes the Torchlight Trilogy). While Embracer Group doesn't appear to have any relation towards actual development - it nevertheless does represent a funding rival to Blizzard among others.

All that to say that developers can build any design they desire (in theory) and with balance towards their intuition on what the market of players may also desire.

Nevertheless - while I do celebrate what MoonBeast and it's rivals can accomplish in this generation of the Arpg genre... the previous experiences I've read with HoB, TL3, D3, and even Path of Exile's changes over the years - do form some idea of what could be avoided and learned for all developers in today's market.

This overall data could be largely ignored as well by current developers.
Only time shall reveal whose design the players will favor for this generation of games.
The Publishers ready to salvage franchises should market responses turn sour again.

[Neon Triangle]

It's great that the old devs are still making products, but I wonder how they plan to set themselves apart from the others. Honestly, as much as I like TL2 I will admit that Titan Quest spoiled me with it's approach to skill trees and class building, and I still feel that a new ARPG would need something to raise that bar even higher. There's nothing wrong with being traditional of course, as TL2 showed, but I am still curious on what they're planning to do as time goes on.