I need some tips with Engineer on Elite with Hardcore mode

[frostyshad]

First to say I have played a lot of RPG on high difficulties, "Torchlight 1" included but before I have bought in on Steam. After "Torchlight 1" on clean Destroyer with dual-wield weapon (still cannot beat the last level and have no time to grindle much), I have said to myself that never will play in sequel with a warrior character class... :(
So, without the reading any guides, and other spoiler material (don't like spoilers), I have bought the "Torchligh 2" on Steam (a stupid marketing name actually, no connection to what actually happened in storyline of game, same as Engineer is name not suited to the class, better "Worker" or "Mechanic" or something but not the name of guy who is spending time with charts), and think to play with Mage! I am mostly playing RPG with a pure Mage-class, but don't know why, maybe I just like how looks a girl Engineer, my feminism said to me playing with this class... I thought it's a intellect class with range attack and devices, and stuff.
And I have cursed this choose soon after I have lost a few characters! But still, just for case of justice, I want to beat the game with Engineer, so I need some tips.

Actually questions

What skill is good for countering a crowd-summoners with minions that have a vast amount of damage, such as Ice Bats in the cave with Chillfoot?

What is maximum number of skillpoints at the and of Elite playtrough? I just like to make max skills what learned, so I will not to spend skillpoints in lot of different skills.

By the way, how to decrease size of Steam scrennshots making?

Some information about my char current stats

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1865330574

Level: 19

Strength: 62
Dexterity: 6
Focus: 9
Vitality: 53

Skills

Flame Hummer Current Rank: 7
Heavy Lifting Current Rank: 1
Supercharge Current Rank: 1
Coup de Grace Current Rank: 1

Healing Bot Current Rank: 1
Bulwark Current Rank: 7
Charge Domination Current Rank: 1

Aegis of Fate Current Rank: 4
Charge Reconstitution Current Rank: 1

Any good suggestions? I have tried a different tactics with Engineer, for now it's similar to my pure Destroyer in Torchlight 1 — spamming single attack skill, hit-and-run. And it's working for now but not against a super-fast and insane damage crowds, my char almost died few times already, once only Aegis saved, after that I decide to max that skill.

P. S. Less spoiler please and thanks for the future answers!

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A little, minimum spoiler guide for "Torchlight 2" elite difficulty with hardcore setting walktrough

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I have made it for those who trying to beat the game on such setting without playing in "Torchlight 2", mainly it for pure close combat classes, but the tips is general. And yes, the game have "surprises" which is on first playtrough can lead to game over.

The purpose of the guide

The guide is minimum spoiler introduction for a hardcore players who are new to the game and have played other RPG and want to play "Torchlight 2" on hardest possible difficulty setting for the first. The guide is not suited for tactics like a cheating and using the gameplay flaws to farm items and get other goods, so it's will be probably useless if players using such tactics. This guide for no-rerols play-trough.

Game basics

In short: the game hates close combat! If you want for more relaxing gameplay — do not play as pure close combat hero. Kiting in this with a pure melee hero is something that can hurt your nerve system on the HCE difficulty! :)
The loot names and the monsters is actually larger than it looks like in terms when you clicking on it, this can be an issue when you trying to avoid something to hit or to pick and just run away your char.

Stats

Strength: if your class melee damage dealer, without it no way will be.

Dexterity: for a range physical damage dealers, for close combat have some importance too because fumble attacks are annoying and some critical need, for great two-handed weapon for an example.

Focus: for mages, for heroes with magical abilities, and for dual-wielders but for the last only little a bit.

Vitality: a decent stat for shield wielders, HP is better to compensate by a gear, in late game bonus of HP from vitality is not enough.

Game controls and the other setting

As in the all game with just mouse movement and attack there is a problems.

— Your char surrounded by monsters and you clicking run away but char is continue hitting and continue to losing the red sphere... :O

The solution: keep calm and try to click multiple times but not holding down left mouse button. Clicks must be not far from the char, but as far as possible from monsters. Some monsters a large and so the game thinks that you clicking on them especially if you have resolution low video setting.

— Your char using "kiting", it's mean hit and run, but not striking and rather walking close to chasing monsters.

The solution: using shift button will force your char to stand still, but some skill nevermind will make your char few steps forward.

— Homing magical and physical projectiles hardly to avoid with such controls in tough battles.

The solution: try to make a distance between your char and the mages if you battling some other monsters. Some microcontrol will be need, and this is annoying.

— The gore in the game is annoying to you (as for myself).

The solution: the game have setting to off red blood displaying in game options menu "Details", a very useful it is.

— You in single player campaign only and you are bothered by nonstop text about damage dealing and etc...

The solution: in the setting menu "Detalis" set to "None" option "Floating Damage & Text". (Thank to "steffire3" of Steam Torchlight 2 community.)

— You think it's hard to avoid objects and monsters with just mouse-control when your char is need just run away?

The solution: the "Move" key-bind in controls. A very useful it is, you char cannot auto-attack while this button pressed down but can interrupt movement for skill use. (Thanks to "JewelryStar" of Steam Torchlight 2 community.)

Magical and elemental damage and armor

Ice

With player: a very helpful against swift crowds, and middle armored and sized monsters which have no resist to it.
Against player: ice attacks can be a very deadly if it using by bosses or a very fast minions of monster summoner, better do not try to fight against different types of ice monsters with rush tactics, this type of damage has a crucial debuff which decreasing movement and the attack speed — a highway for your char to the hardcore graveyard...

Electric

With player: can destroy a large low armored against electricity crowds in seconds!
Against player: can do to you a large amount of damage within a short time with it's debuff "Shocked".

Poison

With player: can help against middle and heavy armored monsters.
Against player: a very deadly in combination with archers, shooter monsters or something like that.

Fire

With player: helpful against low armored and low HP monsters, also can help against protected from the elements a large and heavy armored foes.
Against player: usually fire blasts have a wide area and large single blow damage and it's debuff ignoring any armor if placed...

Pets

Pet is crucial on hardcore elite so try to equip it with good items, proper element and phycal armor and spell that can help you or that can hold more time for your pet before it will flee.
Aggressive tactics — against the single and well armored foe, useful on bosses, good against mages but not summoners. Defensive tactics — a very good versus summoners, swift crowds. Passive tactics — if your pet is healer, or other support when you need constant magic from it.

You may also use the next tactics: running to hit a boss — switch pet to aggressive mode, running away — defensive. It will help your pet to survive few second more and do some more damage. In that case mimic or warbeast, or something like that will be fine.
if you are not running from the crowd of boss but battling them the vampiric spider will need.

Jackal: against slow, low damage crowds and slow heavy armored units that your char can hit normally.

Warbeast: against anything that your char cannot hit with easy for a long time.

Spider: against well armored and slow foes, weak against swift and high damage crowds.

Mimic: useful against high damage and low HP crowds, against medium armored crowds, against summoners and mages, have some use on bosses.

Molebeast: good versus foes like goblins, ratlings, zombies an anything other middle or low armored and slow enough and which can be stunned. Weak against summoners.

Half skeleton: against bosses, champions and anything armored with resist to venom. Very weak against swift crowds high damage, medium armored crowds.

Vampiric spider: useful against medium armored crowds, have some use against bosses and champions due it's large HP.

Abilities

Monster's abilities is described under it's name in the top of the screen.

Knockback

With player: a crucial moment in fighting against swift foes or else your char will be surrounded and will be the problems. Some abilities have hidden knockback such as "Ember Hammer" of engineer class.
Against you: can prevent your char from dealing damage in close combat, can prevent your char from fleeing or can push your protagonist into dead end of a dungeon. Actually a very chaotic and because of it, a dangerous ability.

Stun

With player: amazing against middle armored and small foes. Have some help in long battles against high HP champions.
Against player: a highway to the graveyard of hardcore characters...

Dash

With player: can help you to counter "Health Regeneration" with "Teleport" combo that monsters sometimes has, if your char is pure close combat.
Against player: dangerous ability of high damage foes, can lead to critical hits on your char, same as knockback also can lead to unpredictable result and in addition can apply annoying debuff "Daze" which is movement speed reducing and even more dangerous that dash itself...

Teleport

With player: can help your char in different situations.
Against player: can make a battle incredibly chaotic! You can imagine archer with such ability or swift crowds with it...

Health Regeneration

With player: can help your char to spent less amount of gold to potions and improving a survive ability in general.
Against player: can make monsters almost unbeatable by close combat char because of combination it with knockback, teleport and summoning mana burning minions for an example.

Dividing

With player: none.
Against player: extremely dengerous ability that cause monster (a champion monster for an example) to divide into less HP two clones after final blow delivered. The copies has instantly using a most deadly ability of the initial monster, for an example a stun or bucket of deadly fire bombs...

Battle zones and traps

Usually open space is far less dangerous than dungeons, so good strategy is to clear all open space and then go deep. Dungeons has a secret rooms, some times it's opened by a special plate on the wall, sometimes it's opened when you destroying some furniture near the end of walking space, and so on...
If you feel that current location is too hard you can lead back your char to some previous locations, they will be unexplored again so you farm some potions and golds there to buy good items from sellers, the bosses are respawned too despite of it's on my opinion is somehow breaking atmosphere of the story.
The more wide space — the usually better for your char, the more narrow passages — the carefully and more microcontrol must be. Usually battle zones has a dangerous traps, the technically advanced dungeon of main campaign quest in Act 2 has an instant death trap, which is hard to see, it looks like a linear holes on the ground, the activation time is something near a second.
In dungeons in general — don't rush and just run away trough the exit and then come again, hit and run away if monster have blocked the entrance.

When you see a kind of magical creature from the myths of Middle East, and this creature will give to you a challenge to survive in the Luminous Arena, one way portal it is! The easy way to survive is to have enough of Healing Potions and if if you will see a narrow passage with a death traps, just do not follow a shinning circle but wait for a bit, one row of the death traps will stop activating after a time, at least it happens to me.

Late in the game, in the swamp locations beware of the dark holes on the ground! There is a fire torrents which activating periodically and can eat a lot of red sphere for a very short time. Also there is a 'Arena of Slaughter' with dangerous fire-traps inside, you need to fight in small room, totally hazardous situation.

One way portals

One way portal to the boss is looks like a small, glowing marble thing on the ground. "The Phase Beast Portal Challenge" can be one way too, some phase beast challenge cannot be completed without AoE damage, better say range AoE damage.

The monsters

Watch for critical hits, do not left to stand your hero under the super strike of boss to check if it will hurt your char, some of them seems to ignoring armor... You need a good damage to do something with summoned minions if you are close combat class or the battle against boss will be long...

Multiple projectiles arc attacks

Some kind of in-game foes (mages usually) has an ability to create an arc of multiple projectiles which is spreading trough space and expanding, usually the hit of single projectile is not a deadly and this arc is easy to avoid, but very exception if your char is a pure melee combatant!
When your standing close to the place where arc has been created, the 'center' of arc, that is mean the danger to get hit by many projectile simultaneously which also can make critical hit by itself, it's a very large amount of damage! So if you have melee char, you need to count and attack in close combat the champion for an example only after it has used such devastating attack, usually this attack not come in a row but with some pauses on other skills. Still better to not risk too much.

Long range knockback linear attacks

This attack can make a very large amount of damage from a far. The boss for an example throwing a line of ice on the character and this line has two annoying abilities, first of course it's making some damage, second it's has little knock back on char, but knockback trowing your char little bit further than line moving with the same time so your char will be get hit again, and then again... The effect not so horrible actually, you just need to lead your char in the side not parallel to the direction of the attack line!

Mages

The most dangerous foe in the game. Can do an apocalyptic amount of elemental damage from a range, can have a various defensive and destructive abilities and fearsome disabling debuffs, can place horrific damage over time effects on target, can summon a deadly minions and so on... A danger of mages is drastically increasing in some narrow passages.

Summoners

The second of dangerous type of monsters in the game, have no many magic nor spells but can summon a crowd of deadly as hell minions which much more dangerous than the leader itself. Same as magicians can be an extremely dangerous in some landscape such as narrow passages.

Archer and shooters and bombardiers

Archers have a lot of disabling abilities, long range, and a rapid fire rate and good critical chance. Shooters can do sustain amount of damage to non-shielded characters, especially on short range. The bombardiers can be a heavy armored and can do a large amount of damage on medium range even to a heavily protected by armor characters! So watch out the bombs, it has one weakness — it's usually slow.

A heavily armored close fighters

This type of monsters usually have some deadly abilities in close combat, such as stun, knockback, and so on. Their danger is increasing when the have dash ability or something similar, watch out about critical hits.

A low armored swift close combatants

Usually attacking in groups, a very annoying in the battles against bosses because of no time to deal with them especially if you have a low AoE damage char.

Items

The player will need a lot of items. Accessories of any type of elemental protection, if your char are archer, shooter or warrior you will also need some different types of weapon elemental damage. For an example fire hummer against heavy armored foes and the ice hummer against high attack speed champions. So do not forget to check shops in towns, they often changing items to sale, this is because better no use pet to sale but check the shops by yourself through scroll of portal.

Miscellaneous

When the game on "Setting" menu the pause is shutting off so game unfreeze. Beware of that if you playing on hardcore. It almost sent my another char to the graveyard...

To be continued...

Last updated: 16/09/2021

[frostyshad]

I mean I am not using nor I will use re-rolls or something similar and cheat like tactics. My char was defeated with 100% HP because I am not thinking that such anti-gameplay things can be in game, I mean I have played some RPG-s, for an example "Torchligh 1" and there is not instant death traps as I remembered! Such nonsense along with phase beast challenge slime room and etc is a new things, and pretty stupid as for my opinion. There was instant death in "The Witcher 2" which have similar difficulties, I mean one death and the whole game from beginning on the hardest possible difficulty, but those RPG in some ways is different from "Torchlight 2".

Is that new traps in Act 3 will be instant death too?

[steffire3]

Цитата допису frostyshad:

Is that new traps in Act 3 will be instant death too?

The Fire Geyser Traps located in some open areas of Act 3 deal high damage although I've been able to survive a couple of hits from them.

There's the Fire Breath Traps located in the Act 3 Dragon Dungeons which are similar.

There's the Steam Traps in the Act 3 Dwarven Dungeons that are avoidable.

There's the Act 4 Fire Traps for the Second Last Boss Fight which are quite damaging.

In Act 3 there's some Electric Ground Bolt Archers that are annoying in close quarters like Grom's Arena.

In fact almost all Act 3 foes are just generally annoying with their Speed, Damage and Methods.

[Sol]

As others have mentioned i also think that elite hardcore is not intended for new players. If you are neither a veteran torchlight 2 player who know every single thing about the game or a genius who needs no guidance and warning but simply dodge every projectile, avoid every trap, stay away from every potentially dangerous areas out of pure instinct...then i suggest playing elite but turn off the hardcore option. That way whenever you die to something you will not lose the character and you will remember which one to avoid and how to maneuver through certain area and after enough dead you'd eventually be ready to take on elite hardcore. The way you are playing right now is kinda like trying to force the game to be something its not. Elite hardcore of torchlight 2 is unfair, it demand you to have prior knowledge about things before you venture forth just as a real life adventurer should.

[HiFive]

Цитата допису steffire3:

Цитата допису frostyshad:

No farm, no re-rolls, no low difficulty runs, or other stuff, no.

you have completed the game I think many times and you did not warn me about instant death traps! >:(

My current run is with shield and probably "Ember Hummer", because the last one was with two-handed stuff, but it seems harder, in some moments especially... :(

Completed the game with Re-rolls, Farming and Shared Stash. I admit after one year it was quite tiring for me seeing that Elite Vanilla is limited without those tactics, I agree with you.

I don't agree. It's precisely because the game cannot be completed on the hardest possible setting in the first attempt, and not without a lot of work, that this game has been a continual source of entertainment for me and others for so many years. Anything less would be too boring. Anything less would be a one-and-done experience for a lot of players, like it is on so many other games. Anything less would not inspire so many people to create so many mods. The way this game was designed is completely brilliant! It never ceases to amaze me: for the gameplay, the quality of the graphics, the variety, the details and difficulties that only a seasoned player would know about, and the amazing mods made possible with GUTS. As someone has said before on a discussion page, this game should really go in the RPG hall of fame, if there was one.

[steffire3]

Цитата допису HiFive:

Цитата допису steffire3:

Completed the game with Re-rolls, Farming and Shared Stash. I admit after one year it was quite tiring for me seeing that Elite Vanilla is limited without those tactics, I agree with you.

I don't agree. It's precisely because the game cannot be completed on the hardest possible setting in the first attempt, and not without a lot of work, that this game has been a continual source of entertainment for me and others for so many years. Anything less would be too boring. Anything less would be a one-and-done experience for a lot of players, like it is on so many other games. Anything less would not inspire so many people to create so many mods. The way this game was designed is completely brilliant! It never ceases to amaze me: for the gameplay, the quality of the graphics, the variety, the details and difficulties that only a seasoned player would know about, and the amazing mods made possible with GUTS. As someone has said before on a discussion page, this game should really go in the RPG hall of fame, if there was one.

I meant that after one year of playing with 6 characters I realized that I wanted to gather Damage Reductions without having to Farm Grell and stuff. Mods basically solved that for me.

As for a First time run through Elite Hardcore? I have yet to bother with Hardcore. I've died many times on Elite. On this I do agree, whatever Runic Games intended- we got the game they built.

Although for me it's just that I want to also wield Melee characters on Elite and I have little time to Farm. However that's an entirely different topic.

So yes, it doesn't change the fact that Elite Hardcore will destroy anyone who thinks they can waltz it without Grell, Farming and Shared Stash. Runic Games made sure that Players have to gamble Rng often to stand a chance at getting good Items and hopefully an opening to complete the game. Boris, Jurick and Re-rolling makes it loads easier than without them.

My congrats to anyone who can beat this game without using those methods.

Also my responses at this point in this Discussion have changed. Vanilla deserves respect for what it is. Since the original author of this discussion has made it clear they are not interested in vanilla systems designed to defeat Elite Hardcore then the only other topic I can mention is that I basically stopped playing Vanilla a long time ago to make the game shorter and more fun for me. I study vanilla and use it to form the basis of my balance discussions for modders. I still advice Players on vanilla tactics and that will always return to Grell, Farming and Shared Stash. If they refuse that then they are on their own whether they begin to employ Shields or simply start playing Ranged Classes.

However I'm glad you enjoy vanilla TL2 for what it is. My limited time forces me to play it in ways that are no longer within what Runic Games originally intended. Nevertheless I'm glad to assist with Vanilla Advice... hopefully to Players who actually listen.

[ADEC Inc]

Цитата допису HiFive:

It's precisely because the game cannot be completed on the hardest possible setting in the first attempt, and not without a lot of work, that this game has been a continual source of entertainment for me and others for so many years.

You keep saying this but no one has actually suggested otherwise. It is possible to appreciate a thing and still recognize its obvious flaws.

[HiFive]

It is my opinion that most of you view some of it's designs as flaws because you are comparing this game to other RPG's. This happens on the Discussions pages of almost every game out there. If the "flaws" make the game uninteresting, unplayable, clunky, or extremely awkward, then yes, I might chime in to say it's flawed. I take that back, I wouldn't chime in. I wouldn't even be on the Discussions pages. I would say to myself, "I don't like this game. I'm not going to play it anymore." Then I would move on to the next game. I wouldn't go on the Discussions pages and bash the game, because there are usually people who DO like the game, and they are entitled to like it.

I don't judge games by how other games work - by how hard or easy it is to play them, by how the game doesn't have this or that feature of my other game(s) that I like, by some mechanic that makes the game harder than my other game(s) that I like, by how easy or hard it is to complete the game. I might think those things a few times when I am first playing the game, but if I like the game overall, I just accept it the way it is. It's fun, or it's not.

If it's not an MMO, that has a huge team working on it to change player stats and environment stats and change dungeons, and change maps and add new classes, and change old classes, it's pointless to gripe about anything on the game. I'm happy to tell people how I, personally, managed to get through some tricky parts, but I'm not going to call them flaws, unless they are actual game bugs.

Torchlight 2 is very playable. It's very much a Torchlight game, but very different from the original Torchlight, and much more challenging, so it should not be compared to TL1 in a lot of respects.

Hardcore is supposed to be the biggest challenge. Hardcore Elite is supposed to be the ultimate challenge, and it is. I lost at least 6 Hardcore Elite characters in the vanilla game before I got through the storyline with one. I didn't farm Eye of Grell, or look at guides. What I did was play the game a lot on non-hardcore. When I wanted a bigger challenge, I decided to try Hardcore. I created an easy character and collected good gear and gems and spells, and then I finally tackled Elite HC. It was very hard and very slow, and I made sure to repeat dungeons enough until I knew I could handle the dps coming from the enemies. I knew how easy I could get one-shot in certain places and it did happen, but I kept trying because it was interesting to me to see if I could do it, and I finally did!

Things are much easier now that I know a lot more, but I still know that I can get cornered when I don't expect it, or I can forget something, or I can accidently move the wrong way in the wrong place and it will be all over. That's what an ultimate challenge should be like, and it is here on TL2.

f you want to play max difficulty and win every time, I would equate that with going to Disneyland and riding the Autopia ride (although I think they don't have that one any more - with the tiny cars that are on a track that cannot be diverged from). If you want the real challenge, then become a racecar driver. Hardcore Elite on TL2 is the racecar driver version of driving. It's very hard, and very risky, and that's what it's all about.

[steffire3]

Цитата допису HiFive:

It is my opinion that most of you view some of it's designs as flaws because you are comparing this game to other RPG's.

If it's not an MMO, that has a huge team working on it to change player stats and environment stats and change dungeons, and change maps and add new classes, and change old classes, it's pointless to gripe about anything on the game. I'm happy to tell people how I, personally, managed to get through some tricky parts, but I'm not going to call them flaws, unless they are actual game bugs.

Hardcore is supposed to be the biggest challenge. Hardcore Elite is supposed to be the ultimate challenge, and it is. I lost at least 6 Hardcore Elite characters in the vanilla game before I got through the storyline with one. I didn't farm Eye of Grell, or look at guides.

f you want to play max difficulty and win every time, I would equate that with going to Disneyland and riding the Autopia ride (although I think they don't have that one any more - with the tiny cars that are on a track that cannot be diverged from). If you want the real challenge, then become a racecar driver. Hardcore Elite on TL2 is the racecar driver version of driving. It's very hard, and very risky, and that's what it's all about.

This I do agree with also. It's one of the reasons I decided to not continue it myself. I admit I've read the Gakm7 Guide on Shocking Orb Embermage which is the opposite of Grelling since it relies on stacking Damage so there's various ways of tackling Elite.

Not sure I view limited supply like Grell Eyes as flaws just more that Runic Games decided that was going to be one of few early methods to gather Damage Reduction.

Although I realize this is to answer multiple people with various view points.

On the small team size it's interesting since TL2 was stated by Runic Games to be an unfinished plan so people can debate on that. I agree that I've accepted the game for what it is.

Mods seem to fill the gap for me on changing stats, classes and all that. Although I recognize this as separate from Vanilla.

TL2 is actually my first Arpg Dungeon Crawler. It's also the game I use to compare other games with (rather than compare TL2 to them). For me, mods kept me interested with TL2 and helped me understand and appreciate Vanilla more.

For me, it's just the fact that Vanilla Elite takes time and preparation. Much longer than I can give.

[HiFive]

Цитата допису steffire3:

TL2 is actually my first Arpg Dungeon Crawler. It's also the game I use to compare other games with (rather than compare TL2 to them). For me, mods kept me interested with TL2 and helped me understand and appreciate Vanilla more.

For me, it's just the fact that Elite takes time and preparation. Much longer than I can give.

I didn't know this. You sure picked a great game to start with!

I agree that a person has to be in the right mindset to spend all that time trying to do hardcore. The great thing for me is that I can have fun at every level of difficulty. The graphics are great. There are at least several different maps for every dungeon and every open area, and tons of different kinds of monsters all with different types of animations and damage. It takes a long time for me to feel a need to play something else for a while.

[frostyshad]

Цитата допису steffire3:

Цитата допису frostyshad:

Is that new traps in Act 3 will be instant death too?

In fact almost all Act 3 foes are just generally annoying with their Speed, Damage and Methods.

The all is not so a problem, even a fast deadly crowds can be easily stopped by shock grenades but the point is I hope the game not have more traps that can make empty HP sphere with single blow, regardless of any armor and armor. For an example my previous char have near 2500 health and hell bucket of armor on 30th level and maximal elemental resist against lightning, and that all is not counted by the game when the trap hits.

Цитата допису HiFive:

It is my opinion that most of you view some of it's designs as flaws because you are comparing this game to other RPG's. This happens on the Discussions pages of almost every game out there. If the "flaws" make the game uninteresting, unplayable, clunky, or extremely awkward, then yes, I might chime in to say it's flawed. I take that back, I wouldn't chime in. I wouldn't even be on the Discussions pages. I would say to myself, "I don't like this game. I'm not going to play it anymore." Then I would move on to the next game. I wouldn't go on the Discussions pages and bash the game, because there are usually people who DO like the game, and they are entitled to like it.

The point is if you have more than one thing you need some general properties to compare that things together. For an example the most objects that the peoples can see in common life has a mass, no matter how unique the particular object, it will have a mass. So we can compare the very masses. It's simple.
Obviously "Torchloght 2" is not a single RPG game in the world, and obviously I am not a single gamer in the world. So I have my own scale to judge those very games and compare them.

Цитата допису HiFive:

I don't judge games by how other games work - by how hard or easy it is to play them, by how the game doesn't have this or that feature of my other game(s) that I like, by some mechanic that makes the game harder than my other game(s) that I like, by how easy or hard it is to complete the game. I might think those things a few times when I am first playing the game, but if I like the game overall, I just accept it the way it is. It's fun, or it's not.
If it's not an MMO, that has a huge team working on it to change player stats and environment stats and change dungeons, and change maps and add new classes, and change old classes, it's pointless to gripe about anything on the game. I'm happy to tell people how I, personally, managed to get through some tricky parts, but I'm not going to call them flaws, unless they are actual game bugs.

But I will call it a flaws, because for my point of views it's a flaws of gameplay.
For an example I like more the design of town-location in "Torchlight 1", but for now I don't like a desing of town-locations (such as Enclave) in "Toruchlight 2", but I like the cinematic in sequel and I think previous game have a flaw in it.

Цитата допису HiFive:

Torchlight 2 is very playable. It's very much a Torchlight game, but very different from the original Torchlight, and much more challenging, so it should not be compared to TL1 in a lot of respects.

Torchlight was more challenging for me than sequel when I played for a pure melee dueal-wielder warrior (lost a lot of characters), the sequel is much more easy in that case in average. The "spikes" that makes game so hard (and stupid) is an exceptions from general rule: phase beast room with slime (impossible to beat without AoE, no any warnings), traps in second act (instant death, hard to locate, quickly activation) — it's actually a very small part of total gameplay.

Цитата допису HiFive:

Hardcore is supposed to be the biggest challenge. Hardcore Elite is supposed to be the ultimate challenge, and it is. I lost at least 6 Hardcore Elite characters in the vanilla game before I got through the storyline with one. I didn't farm Eye of Grell, or look at guides. What I did was play the game a lot on non-hardcore. When I wanted a bigger challenge, I decided to try Hardcore. I created an easy character and collected good gear and gems and spells, and then I finally tackled Elite HC. It was very hard and very slow, and I made sure to repeat dungeons enough until I knew I could handle the dps coming from the enemies. I knew how easy I could get one-shot in certain places and it did happen, but I kept trying because it was interesting to me to see if I could do it, and I finally did!

It's boring to repeat game on hardest difficulties... Thanks all gods TL2 is not a games that need to be done on easiest setting to unlock hardest, the because i like it! Not like stupidity in Sacred or Titan Quest.

Цитата допису HiFive:

Things are much easier now that I know a lot more, but I still know that I can get cornered when I don't expect it, or I can forget something, or I can accidently move the wrong way in the wrong place and it will be all over. That's what an ultimate challenge should be like, and it is here on TL2.

f you want to play max difficulty and win every time, I would equate that with going to Disneyland and riding the Autopia ride (although I think they don't have that one any more - with the tiny cars that are on a track that cannot be diverged from). If you want the real challenge, then become a racecar driver. Hardcore Elite on TL2 is the racecar driver version of driving. It's very hard, and very risky, and that's what it's all about.

Elite Hardcore is just the same as usually, run from projectiles and hit the monsters, in Torchlight series a huge disbalance between melee and range characters there, de-facto a pure melee cannot get trough the all of locations in game but a pure range can. Maybe if I have picked Embermage (as I have thought from the beginning), for now the game probably was already completed, explored and done for me, and I never bother forums and community, but somehow I decided to play that stupid "meaty Railroader"... Omg... :(
I never was in Desneyland I am a rural folk of somekind so I have no idea what you talking about.

[ZarahNeander]

Цитата допису frostyshad:

... I hope the game not have more traps that can make empty HP sphere with single blow, regardless of any armor and armor.

I doubt anyone claims the floor traps are the very incarnation of good game design, but only the floor traps (aka. rotating blades in A2) are lethal and cant be blocked by anything...

except observation. Watch the pattern. Only the first one in luminous area has no pattern, run past it with your finger hoovering over your best rejuv potion. The other ones are kinda trivial once you get the hang of it.

All other types (flame traps etc) are trivial as long as you're focused.

[HiFive]

Цитата допису ZarahNeander:

Цитата допису frostyshad:

... I hope the game not have more traps that can make empty HP sphere with single blow, regardless of any armor and armor.

I doubt anyone claims the floor traps are the very incarnation of good game design, but only the floor traps (aka. rotating blades in A2) are lethal and cant be blocked by anything...

except observation. Watch the pattern. Only the first one in luminous area has no pattern, run past it with your finger hoovering over your best rejuv potion. The other ones are kinda trivial once you get the hang of it.

All other types (flame traps etc) are trivial as long as you're focused.

Aargh! It's not a flaw. It's a scary part of the game that adds to the danger of dungeons that are supposed to be very dangerous. It's not bad design. It's something I used to hate, but I've been playing long enough now that I am comfortable with them, and I have never, ever, thought to myself that it's a bad game design. Why does everyone these days think that games should hold their hand and protect them at every turn? All the games that do this are extremely boring for me. I try to like them, but I literally fall asleep playing them.

The blades are huge - almost the size of your character - and they are very fast and sharp. I would expect them to be extremely deadly, and they are, like they should be.

[HiFive]

And I'm sorry people, but frostyshad made it very clear quite a while ago that he is a one-and-done player in a game that was purposefully designed NOT to be a one-and-done game. He claims that using guides is cheating, but he is using us as his guides, which is the same thing, just less efficient. Every comment we make is just an excuse for him to keep boasting about how he is such a good player, that if he can't do his one-and-done thing on a game it's a flawed game that was designed badly. I am continuously shocked that you all keep agreeing with him. Thankfully, the original players on this game did not feel this way and the game was a hugely popular award winner when it was released.

[ADEC Inc]

Every game has flaws of some kind. If you would never play a flawed game you wouldn't be playing anything at all. Stop taking it as some kind of blasphemy just to point out that something could have been done better.

And for the record, I'm not in full agreement with frosty, but this attitude that Runic can do no wrong is ridiculous.

[ZarahNeander]

Цитата допису HiFive:

Aargh! It's not a flaw. ...

Calm down, angry young rebel. Did *I* explictly say that traps are a "flaw"? I was trying to be helpful, but I must have someone triggered your crusade against ppl that are less hardcore, less git gud than you.

My apologies...Zarah out