Why play Hardcore?

[Gorwe]

...I just don't understand. This is more of a self soul searching, but what do you get out of playing Hardcore? You can Shared Stash, yes, but you'd need to do it so often that you'd develop a nasty case of anxiety.

So...why?

[potterman28wxcv]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

I mean I feel like Hardcore just brings the "Realism vs Gameplay" question out in the spotlights. Hardcore sits neatly at the side of Realism-you make a mistake, you pay for it by losing the character. Softcore, otoh, belongs to the gameplay side. Sure, you can lose a day's or more worth, but it's not like you're gonna lose the whole month you put into your character.

You never lose a month in Hardcore, because you don't really survive long enough anyway XD If my character lasts more than 6 hours I'm already happy !

Originally posted by Gorwe:

And it all depends on what a person wants. Imo, realism should work WITH not AGAINST gameplay. And the Hardcore quetion is a simple XOR question.

For me I have both - realism and a non-boring gameplay.

In TL2 softcore, no matter what you do, you will eventually get to the end of the story. Mostly because you can corpserun and get no penalty (or barely) for doing so. I think I'm not the only one here that died at least 5 times against Netherking on my very first SC Elite run. Was I happy when I defeated him ? Not really to be fair.. It was more of a "pff finally" rather than a "I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ did it".

Do you think it's OK to get awarded by the end of the story even though you died more than 5 times against the final boss ? I think it isn't, and I think it removes any kind of challenge you could have. Because you can just corpserun endlessly, the only "worth" variable is "How fast do you beat him". And if there's one thing that Diablo 3 did right when it came out, it was the inability for you to corpserun.

This also leads to brainless glass cannon builds where you don't give a damn about survivability and only care about your DPS. Why are summon builds generally unpopular ? Not because they are weak - but because it takes so much time to kill things.

I'm not saying it's wrong to play Softcore. Of course, there are cases when I actually prefer SC to HC:

• When I just want to relax and kill lots and lots of monsters
  
• When I wanna explore dungeons with other people
  
• The joy of having an almighty character in the end
  
• And of course, the story if you've never played it

But I will certainly not play Softcore for the challenge, nor for the depth.

Compared to Softcore, Hardcore makes you ask these questions:

• Should I really enter this area now ?
  
• Is this group of monsters really harmless ? What should I be looking for ?
  
• More damage or more survivability ? More damage = kill things faster = less time in danger. More survivability = you can make more mistakes than usual. Thiis balance in vanilla is more of a "pump damage until you start dying a lot - then pump a little survivability - then continue pumping damage". In HC, you can't afford to die and you don't really want to test "whether you will die or not".

All in all, it's all about minimizing the probability of dying, all the while doing decent damage because if fights take too long you're a lot more prone to mistakes (you can stay focused for say 4 minutes - but can you stay focused for 15 minutes ? The more the fight lasts, the more chance you have to ♥♥♥♥ up. Humanly speaking).

You don't have all this depth in Softcore. And that's why I was getting bored of ARPGs until recently. Now with the Ironman run i started, I feel this challenge again and it's interesting :-)

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Hardcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is ADDING to gameplay's value.
Softcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is DETRACTING from gameplay's value.

It's more like this: once you have gotten yourself used to hardcore, you can't go back to softcore because it's so easy and forgiving. But I think that in order to play Hardcore and truly appreciate the challenge, one should be ready (and not just wanting to try).

This is the first year i'm really attempting hardcore runs on any ARPG. I used to think the same as you before: why would i waste hours on a character ? But then I started asking me these questions when playing softcore: what's the point of all this ? Ok, I play a character, he goes to lvl 100, yey, then what ? I start another one ? I can just follow some build on the internet and it's just a farm simulator with a bit of action. So why do I keep playing ARPGs ? (and that's when i left the ARPG scene kind of)

Hardcore is giving me another breath on ARPGs. I play them like I never played them before, and it gives me the "roguelike" feeling I had been missing. The point is no longer to try builds, because I don't really have fun trying them anymore - some are OP, some are harder to level with, and that's it. The point now is to try to go the furthest possible in Hardcore.

And when you do reach that point where you've never been before and finally beat that one boss that killed you.. It's utter joy :')

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by potterman28wxcv:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

I mean I feel like Hardcore just brings the "Realism vs Gameplay" question out in the spotlights. Hardcore sits neatly at the side of Realism-you make a mistake, you pay for it by losing the character. Softcore, otoh, belongs to the gameplay side. Sure, you can lose a day's or more worth, but it's not like you're gonna lose the whole month you put into your character.

You never lose a month in Hardcore, because you don't really survive long enough anyway XD If my character lasts more than 6 hours I'm already happy !

Originally posted by Gorwe:

And it all depends on what a person wants. Imo, realism should work WITH not AGAINST gameplay. And the Hardcore quetion is a simple XOR question.

For me I have both - realism and a non-boring gameplay.

In TL2 softcore, no matter what you do, you will eventually get to the end of the story. Mostly because you can corpserun and get no penalty (or barely) for doing so. I think I'm not the only one here that died at least 5 times against Netherking on my very first SC Elite run. Was I happy when I defeated him ? Not really to be fair.. It was more of a "pff finally" rather than a "I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ did it".

Do you think it's OK to get awarded by the end of the story even though you died more than 5 times against the final boss ? I think it isn't, and I think it removes any kind of challenge you could have. Because you can just corpserun endlessly, the only "worth" variable is "How fast do you beat him". And if there's one thing that Diablo 3 did right when it came out, it was the inability for you to corpserun.

This also leads to brainless glass cannon builds where you don't give a damn about survivability and only care about your DPS. Why are summon builds generally unpopular ? Not because they are weak - but because it takes so much time to kill things.

I'm not saying it's wrong to play Softcore. Of course, there are cases when I actually prefer SC to HC:

• When I just want to relax and kill lots and lots of monsters
  
• When I wanna explore dungeons with other people
  
• The joy of having an almighty character in the end
  
• And of course, the story if you've never played it

But I will certainly not play Softcore for the challenge, nor for the depth.

Compared to Softcore, Hardcore makes you ask these questions:

• Should I really enter this area now ?
  
• Is this group of monsters really harmless ? What should I be looking for ?
  
• More damage or more survivability ? More damage = kill things faster = less time in danger. More survivability = you can make more mistakes than usual. Thiis balance in vanilla is more of a "pump damage until you start dying a lot - then pump a little survivability - then continue pumping damage". In HC, you can't afford to die and you don't really want to test "whether you will die or not".

All in all, it's all about minimizing the probability of dying, all the while doing decent damage because if fights take too long you're a lot more prone to mistakes (you can stay focused for say 4 minutes - but can you stay focused for 15 minutes ? The more the fight lasts, the more chance you have to ♥♥♥♥ up. Humanly speaking).

You don't have all this depth in Softcore. And that's why I was getting bored of ARPGs until recently. Now with the Ironman run i started, I feel this challenge again and it's interesting :-)

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Hardcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is ADDING to gameplay's value.
Softcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is DETRACTING from gameplay's value.

It's more like this: once you have gotten yourself used to hardcore, you can't go back to softcore because it's so easy and forgiving. But I think that in order to play Hardcore and truly appreciate the challenge, one should be ready (and not just wanting to try).

This is the first year i'm really attempting hardcore runs on any ARPG. I used to think the same as you before: why would i waste hours on a character ? But then I started asking me these questions when playing softcore: what's the point of all this ? Ok, I play a character, he goes to lvl 100, yey, then what ? I start another one ? I can just follow some build on the internet and it's just a farm simulator with a bit of action. So why do I keep playing ARPGs ? (and that's when i left the ARPG scene kind of)

Hardcore is giving me another breath on ARPGs. I play them like I never played them before, and it gives me the "roguelike" feeling I had been missing. The point is no longer to try builds, because I don't really have fun trying them anymore - some are OP, some are harder to level with, and that's it. The point now is to try to go the furthest possible in Hardcore.

And when you do reach that point where you've never been before and finally beat that one boss that killed you.. It's utter joy :')

As I said, you see Hardcore as adding to the gameplay's value. Hence that wall of text and I'm glad I read it. Thank you.

My biggest problem is in difficulties. There's a huge gap between Normal and Hard and between Hard and Very Hard. My ideal would be something closer to Hard, but still somewhere in between. Hard's too hard to start out(WITHOUT using the Shared mind you).

I don't want to think too much while playing. Certainly not the type of thought "do I want to do this". I just want to have a nice time playing a character I created. And to optimize him as I see fit-if it turns out ineffective(rarely, but still), go back and try again. No 1 imstake -> GAME OVER. At this point I don't even know why I created my first HC character in D2...actually I do. It's because of that battle pose it had in the character select, it looked badass. The extra titles didn't hurt either. Gameplay? I mean, it is nice IF the game's designed and balanced for it...something I don't think TLs really are.

[steffire3]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Hardcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is ADDING to gameplay's value.
Softcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is DETRACTING from gameplay's value.

= = =

I agree on the realism of HC which makes me use SC as a "simulator" to test builds because I know that I will want a build that can handle HC on something like Grom's Arena in Veteran and possibly Elite.

= = =

I find HC to be something that may possibly "Detract" for someone who is new to TL2 systems or even new to ARPG's like I was 3 years ago.

Now that I have a better understanding of TL2, HC "Adds" the "Game" that SC trained me for.

= = =

Although I'm more a fan of modding more balanced options into the game which requires me to test things in SC only because it's much faster.

HC is something I would only attempt when I have a build plan that will give me the best chances of surviving the best the game can throw at me.

HC is very exciting to me since I know it's all or nothing and completing the game feels like a sincere accomplishment.

However I would go Veteran HC for builds that just can't quite survive Grom's Arena on Elite HC.

= = =

Grom's Arena:

For me this is a true test for a HC character that isn't Tarroch's Tomb.

Seems like the purple AoE spinners are the only severe threat other than being surrounded by high damage foes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP4jWljA2wQ
[Elite HC Summoneer almost dies at 3:30]
Nice to hide behind summons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QiEad0WJeA
[Elite HC Magerker almost dies at 3:02]
Nice to hide behind range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EpQ4Yj3N3E
[Elite HC Cannoneer almost dies at 5:52]
Nice to kite with no Forcefield or Shield.

= = =

I would be impressed if someone could complete Grom's Arena on Hardcore Elite with a Hunter Berserker since the Tundra and Shadow Skills are impressive but overused.

= = =

Originally posted by Gorwe:

My biggest problem is in difficulties. There's a huge gap between Normal and Hard and between Hard and Very Hard. My ideal would be something closer to Hard, but still somewhere in between. Hard's too hard to start out (WITHOUT using the Shared mind you).

I don't want to think too much while playing [do I want to do this?]. I just want to have a nice time playing a character I created. And to optimize him as I see fit and if it turns out to be ineffective (rarely, but still), then I go back and try again. No 1 mistake -> GAME OVER... ...I mean, it is nice IF the game's designed and balanced for it...something I don't think TLs really are.

I find it hard to understand this entire conversation if Hardcore isn't about the incredible risk planning of a higher difficulty... I may play much Elite Softcore yet I find HC Veteran to be reasonable for builds that are lower on the "Tier List" of survivability.

Of course you may be referring to the first Torchlight while I am speaking more of TL2 difficulties which are different from TL1.

I always found Normal to be too easy and while Veteran can be hard in the late game- it's more balanced than Elite without Damage Reduction which seems to be a large reason why HC Elite can lead towards sudden deaths.

But then, isn't that the whole point of HC?

Thinking and planning to avoid death?

Or is HC something you want present but without the need for Damage Reductions?

I understand your points here but I'm trying to figure out if the damage levels are the problem between difficulties as stated above?

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Hardcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is ADDING to gameplay's value.
Softcore fans see the realism added by Hardcore mode as if it is DETRACTING from gameplay's value.

= = =

I agree on the realism of HC which makes me use SC as a "simulator" to test builds because I know that I will want a build that can handle HC on something like Grom's Arena in Veteran and possibly Elite.

= = =

I find HC to be something that may possibly "Detract" for someone who is new to TL2 systems or even new to ARPG's like I was 3 years ago.

Now that I have a better understanding of TL2, HC "Adds" the "Game" that SC trained me for.

= = =

Although I'm more a fan of modding more balanced options into the game which requires me to test things in SC only because it's much faster.

HC is something I would only attempt when I have a build plan that will give me the best chances of surviving the best the game can throw at me.

HC is very exciting to me since I know it's all or nothing and completing the game feels like a sincere accomplishment.

However I would go Veteran HC for builds that just can't quite survive Grom's Arena on Elite HC.

= = =

Grom's Arena:

For me this is a true test for a HC character that isn't Tarroch's Tomb.

Seems like the purple AoE spinners are the only severe threat other than being surrounded by high damage foes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP4jWljA2wQ
[Elite HC Summoneer almost dies at 3:30]
Nice to hide behind summons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QiEad0WJeA
[Elite HC Magerker almost dies at 3:02]
Nice to hide behind range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EpQ4Yj3N3E
[Elite HC Cannoneer almost dies at 5:52]
Nice to kite with no Forcefield or Shield.

= = =

I would be impressed if someone could complete Grom's Arena on Hardcore Elite with a Hunter Berserker since the Tundra and Shadow Skills are impressive but overused.

= = =

Originally posted by Gorwe:

My biggest problem is in difficulties. There's a huge gap between Normal and Hard and between Hard and Very Hard. My ideal would be something closer to Hard, but still somewhere in between. Hard's too hard to start out (WITHOUT using the Shared mind you).

I don't want to think too much while playing [do I want to do this?]. I just want to have a nice time playing a character I created. And to optimize him as I see fit and if it turns out to be ineffective (rarely, but still), then I go back and try again. No 1 mistake -> GAME OVER... ...I mean, it is nice IF the game's designed and balanced for it...something I don't think TLs really are.

I find it hard to understand this entire conversation if Hardcore isn't about the incredible risk planning of a higher difficulty... I may play much Elite Softcore yet I find HC Veteran to be reasonable for builds that are lower on the "Tier List" of survivability.

Of course you may be referring to the first Torchlight while I am speaking more of TL2 difficulties which are different from TL1.

I always found Normal to be too easy and while Veteran can be hard in the late game- it's more balanced than Elite without Damage Reduction which seems to be a large reason why HC Elite can lead towards sudden deaths.

But then, isn't that the whole point of HC?

Thinking and planning to avoid death?

Or is HC something you want present but without the need for Damage Reductions?

I understand your points here but I'm trying to figure out if the damage levels are the problem between difficulties as stated above?

Y, it's the damage levels. I don't feel that Damage / HP ratio of enemies is necessarily balanced. A lot of enemies feel...burst-y, but not that tough to be honest(which led me to conclude the notion of a dps race if you will). And then everything keeps revolving around chugga-chugga(a lot of potions). That's not ideal for me. Still, it's better than damage sponge enemies who present no threat(talk about boring).

But I'm talking more of TL1. TL2 is different, but not that much different.