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Should have let you be a hardened clanner, instead you get this my feelings speech in every mission.
First, THANK YOU for your response, it's good to have a level headed discussion with someone who at least can defend their points. :)
"When I said knock up I was explicitly referring to Aiden Pryde being the Father of Diana Pryde, and that his sibko mate was her mother. Infact her first reaction upon seeing Aiden Pryde was " He looks like Mom". She wasnt a warrior then and was taken off birth control remember? I didnt mean that for BoK, I did also bring up the jade Phoenix Trilogy."
Yea, my problem with bringing up anything in the Clipped Wing Green Pigeon trilogy and trying to relate that to the clans as a whole is that the ENTIRE Aiden Pryde story line they followed through all of the books was wack. Aiden was 100% intended as the ENTIRE exception to Clan Jade Falcon. His story, and his descendant's story, was supposed to prove, and did prove, that Jade Falcon was entirely wrong about their set ways and beliefs. First and foremost, Aiden Pryde was a freeborn, and that, in and of itself, makes all reference to anything he did alongside sex completely and entirely different from literally every other clan warrior in the entirety of the battletech of books. In other words, the only person presented in all of FASA's writings that could "knock up" his sibko was Aiden Pryde...using him as the example as to how the clans work is akin to suggesting that the human race is nothing but a bunch of cannibals because Jeffery Dahmer existed. That isn't representative of the clans. Freeborn warrior cast was practically unheard of.
"but if your Falconer/Kit Commander etc is the one who is doing it to your Sibko like Joanna did, well thats not a fight youre likely to win"
I'd forgotten about Joanna's treatment of the Sibko...it's been a dozen or so years since I've read the books. Even now that you mention it the details are fuzzy, I'd have to go back and re-read the books (not my favorite if you can tell) to re-remember. Again, my problem with using the Jade Falcon Trillogy as an example of clan life is that those books were intentionally written to make Clan Jade Falcon look like a bunch of jack asses. I'm aware I'm defending an entirely made up history of entirely made up individuals and claiming that there's too much of a 'bent' in the writing, but Jade Falcon was intentionally written to be the comically bad bad guys...pointing to the Jade Falcon Trillogy and saying "This is how all of the clans treated their warriors" is again a bit like pointing to the worst of humanity and painting all of them with the same brush.
I have a harder time arguing that you're wrong in this case because the Picky Little Pigeon Princesses trilogy was one of the only "focused" writings on clan sibko behavior. You get a lot of it interspersed through the Clan Wolf stories, but other than Phelan Kell's experience being "indoctrinated" into a Clan Wolf Sibko we have very little other experience for how things are done in the books other than Jade Falcon...which is unfortunate because again I feel like Jade Falcon was intentionally written so that people would ask "what the F is wrong with these guys?"
That said, I don't agree with the categorization of brutalization as the method of raising. I always read this much more military "boot camp" than some kind of lord of the flies way of doing things. Yes, training was hard. Yes the kids in the Sibko were broken down and built up again. Yes, perfection was expected. But don't think the story of Jade Falcon was the norm...I think it was WRITTEN to show the most extreme side of clan life.
"There were 20 groups of 40 people several generations ago. There has been no new DNA mixed in until Phelan in 3052. Thats 200 years of no new genes, not only has every combo been tried, they defend their gene repositories as their most important aspects, so most Clans have only been using the DNA of the same 40 people's descendants for over 200 years. Also do remember the Society and the Science caste did start to intentionally start to screw with new warriors in the planning for the wars of Reaving. Even if you remove the genetic defects, its still incredibility inbred by sheer math alone. Especially since Freebirths from lower caste stock becoming warriors is unheard of. "
So here I have to question again...and this time I will fully admit to being able to be wrong since my direct memory of the books is aged now.
If Phelan was added to the Gene Pool in 3052, and it is understood that clans like clan wolf take "prisoners" and turn them into Clanners (I realize not every clan does this) then why are we assuming that in the 200 years since Kerensky setup the gene banks that Phelan is the ONLY time new DNA has ever been added in ANY of the clans?
And again while Freebirth warriors are "unheard of", we have Aiden Pryde. Here, again, I have to ask whether the fact that there's an exception to the rule produces more than just one exception? Is Aiden Pryde the ONLY time in 200 years of history that a freebirth has found their way into Puce Buzzard's gene pool? Or is he just the most famous story?
And finally, if the clans have genetically engineered their entire warrior cast with such an advanced genetics program why do we think that a child created from picking and choosing genes would create something inferior?
Maybe you are right, and most of clan Chartreuse Dodo (and others) are inbred...whether that actually means what you suggest it means is entirely another thing. Not trying to move the goalposts here, but when you suggest that clanners are "inbred psychopaths" there's a specific parlance you're calling on, and if "inbred" doesn't carry the baggage that word is intended to carry, it leaves a false impression of the expected state of the clan warriors.
"And in their own beliefs the Clans tried to crush any aspect of their humanity and attempt to transcend it. They arent pro protecting Humans, they are explicitly anti Human. Kerensky deliberately tried to destroy the Family, he crushed most aspects of culture, anyone who is eldery eventually is just told to ♥♥♥♥ off and die, and are not given any more treatment or eventually even food, unless they have a Bloodname. Then the results of this cult that come out are broken people. Most of which are encouraged to be selfish psychopaths, the exact person you DONT want in a Military."
A very well conversed argument. I would suggest that your interpretation is one you can take, however I personally believe that while you might be right about the OUTCOME the FANTASY of Kerensky was to remove people's individuality which is what he saw as the chief trouble in the inner sphere. The breeding methodology and everything surrounding the caste system was an intent, as is done with boot camp in the military, to teach people that they have a place...and that reaching outside that place in the system with individuality is a path paved straight to chaos and hell. I don't disagree with you on what some of the clans created, but the fact that there are different factions and end reactions to dealing with or integrating with the Inner sphere (wolf, ghost bear, and falcon all had VERY different trajectories during and after the invasion), shows that the way the clans were setup wasn't completely antithesis to humanity. I personally believe that like communism and utopias, Kerensky had an ideal that looked great on paper and I would argue may have actually worked in practice.
After all while we're told of brutal warrior training and harsh treatment within the clans...
But in this same 250 year period the inner sphere is busy LITERALLY blowing each other back to the stone ages in more and more and more petty spiteful ways. So while I don't disagree that Kerensky's methods might have produced uncaring robots...look at what the uncaring robots did vs. the fully autonomous individuals of the Inner Sphere...and then ask if maybe Kerensky wasn't right.
I'd like to respond to more, but it's getting late and my brain is shutting down.
Aidan is trueborn. He pretended to be freeborn for a while but that was because he was pretending to be a totally different person.
Trueborn aren't sterile. The women have contraceptive implants so they can't get pregnant. That's it. You remove/deactivate it and they can reproduce the normal way no problem. They just choose not to do that because it'd be a lot less efficient.
Freeborn warriors do exist in most Clans. Not all of them, but most of them. Everyone undergoes aptitude testing, and sometimes that testing says people in other castes would be better as warriors. Trueborn usually look down on them and they're usually stuck in second line galaxies, but they do exist. Jaime Wolf is a freeborn warrior, for example.
Carry on with your argument.
Should have studied harder in school so you could have gotten into the scientist/merchant castes, labourer.
Anyone who has not read the Jade Phoenix trilogy should read it ASAP!
I read it as a kid, loved it, and reread it again as an adult a few years ago. To my surprise, it more than held up not as a piece of Battletech fiction, but as a science fiction story in its own right.
It's well-paced, dramatic, has its share of shocks not just in the form of plot twists but in the insane behavior of many of the clan members, and it's a good look at why ultra-militaristic societies fail.
There is a reason Sparta ascended to incredible heights as a literal village that at its peak exerted power over an entire region of the world, then came crashing down when one smart Theban commander realized the Spartans' greatest strength was also their greatest weakness. (Helped along by Spartan King Agesilaus, a great warrior but not a great statesman, who repeatedly violated Sparta's own Lykurgan laws by repeatedly going to war with the same enemy, essentially teaching that enemy Spartan tactics.)
The Clans are a great fictional example of that, and of the hubris associated with people who think they're invincible.
You were proven wrong in every discussion here. You were never able to contribute anything of value because your knowledge (of the setting) is so limited. Pitiful.
sweet baby inc? Never heard of them. Who are they?
I pictured you dispassionately wiping Cheeto dust off your shirt as you typed the above, enormously pleased with yourself in the certainty that you have proven your superiority when it comes to knowledge of a fictional universe created for a tabletop game in the 1980s.
You must be the celebrated author of "Intersectional Privilege Among Members of the Clan Warrior Caste In The Mid-2700s: A Case Study In Freeborn Acceptance Among Fluted Flamingo Clan Dezgra Units" and "Batch-None: A Critical Analysis of the Inherent Misogyny of Batchall Rituals Before The Inner Sphere Invasion: How Women Were Excluded From Ritualistic Preening In Majority-Male Sibkos."
I am like a young Adonis and in general superior to you so I am enormously pleased with my self. And don't be afraid I will not take your snacks, just know that you should eat something healthy sometimes or you will end up like a lot of your countryman.
Everyone is a brainwashed tool to be used and thrown away. That's the feeling I got from it.
On that note, every form of fiction will have a "take" on it and there isn't necessarily one true take on anything. That much is evident with the franchise since the fanbase has literally never ever agreed on a single thing.
Maybe just think that your take is the one you like, but not necessarily the one that's being shown.
Hahahaha... now that was a work of art.
Apropos to the discussion in this thread, I do think everyone should read the Founding of the Clans trilogy, by Randall Bills.
https://youtu.be/wb5keTpC4WU?si=rN1NboNPr5fpHpIC
Better is maybe a strong word for it, the Great Houses are just a different kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, many of them are fascist tyrants who have commited actual genocides. Honestly one of the great ironies of the entire setting is the Combine being all upset over Turtle Bay given the messed up ♥♥♥♥ the Combine has done in it's history. Like the Kentares Massacre