Some questions for people who've played this in Japanese already

[Fiona Kaenbyou]

So I have heard extremely positive things about this game from people who've played the Japanese version. As a fan of DRPGs I was intrigued, so I grabbed a cheap copy of Labyrinth of Refrain on Switch recently to prepare myself.

...Unfortunately I had a lot of issues with that game even from just a couple of hours of playing it. I wanted to ask whether those issues had been adjusted in this game, or if I'm likely to get on with it poorly for the same reasons as Refrain.

- My first issue with Refrain was simply the story. Dronya was unlikeable and cruel seemingly for no reason, especially to Luca. The constant focus of everyone ogling her didn't help, and after getting to THAT scene with Marietta I decided I'd had more than enough of the game. I've also read that later plot points get heavy enough that it can even come across as torture p*rn, which is absolutely NOT something I'm interested in.
Galleria seems lighter in the initial presentation, at least, but does it turn into something like this further on?

- Feeding into this was the mission system for the labyrinths. I only made it a couple of floors down but I was already annoyed by the game's insistence on returning to base so I could sit through a long cutscene full of characters I didn't like doing awful things to each other. Is Galleria more willing to let you do a meaningful bit of exploring before it brings you back, or is the focus still more on the VN side than the dungeon crawling?

- Finally, regarding the combat itself. While I think there were a lot of interesting systems with potential, it seemed like a lot of classes boil down to just 'hit the attack button until the bad thing dies'. From what I researched Donum users become your main powerhouse in the later game, but the physical attackers never really advance beyond hitting the attack button (or the block button for Peer Fortress). Does Galleria switch this up at all?

I'm fully ready to accept this series isn't for me. Based on what I've read about Refrain it's a very dark and heavy story, and if Galleria is something similar then I might just let this pass. If anyone reads this and offers their opinion on the matter, I'd appreciate it!

[Landale]

Keep in mind, the names I use may not match up to how NISA chose to work things.

Most of the cast in Galleria is a lot nicer, but it's still part of NIS's Witch series so you're not in for sunshine and rainbows. Goz is a serial rapist and murderer and does try it on Nachiroux before immediately getting his throat ripped out. Patch, being a little brat, rather frequently makes crude comments to her as well due to her large breasts. Pampleton also tries to rape her at one point, but he was being mind controlled into doing that specifically to force Nachiroux to leave the one place she's safe and is normally a decent guy. There's also Zillda selling out the rest of the Moon Society to Goz and someone else so she can learn how to perfect her cloning magic and ♥♥♥♥ a harem of herself.

You're still going to get asked to leave the dungeon a lot. You can ignore it some times and just press on until you can't continue then possibly have to make half a dozen reports to watch cutscenes for an hour or more because you piled them up.

Most of the time combat is going to be "just attack, with Donum groups occasionally casting spells" early on in the game. Later on it becomes "Physical groups use Limiter Release then spam attack, Tank group uses Fortress Guardian's Crest then spams attack/defend, Donum group alternates between buffing, debuffing, and casting damage spells". You might also make use of Liberation Skills, basically Limit Break type stuff, but these are tied to the Soul Pacts specifically and only a few are actually useful.

[okeefe80]

I can't remember the exact scene the OP is talking about but i do remember getting to a point in the game where i decided enough was enough and quit because of the story line. It goes a little too far and i can't imagine what kind of person is okay with this. So you aren't the only one, im not sure if i will pick this up or not but there is a shortage of these kind of dungeon crawlers so its a maybe for me.

[Landale]

Originally posted by okeefe80:

i can't imagine what kind of person is okay with this.

Someone who can keep reality and fiction separate and understands that depicting horrible things is not an endorsement of those things.

[okeefe80]

I'm not qualified to give a psychoanalysis but that is an interesting question for someone who is. Personally i can go along with the whole horny nun thing, and i did feel sorry for dryona after finding out how she was treated so who knows what that says about me, but at a certain point it makes you wonder is this really content I choose to entertain myself with? Reality and Fiction aside, you are the one playing the game and furthering the story, so it might not be a direct endorsement but one starts to wonder.

[Jeris]

I have no interest in religion (or a debate on it), but isn't a lot of its written history full of horrible treatment of people?

It's a slippery slope to start judging what art is appropriate beyond just for your personal consumption.

Many other examples, like rap music more recently (90s). Where someone tried to tell everyone else what was OK.

[Cliiyo]

Originally posted by okeefe80:

I'm not qualified to give a psychoanalysis but that is an interesting question for someone who is. Personally i can go along with the whole horny nun thing, and i did feel sorry for dryona after finding out how she was treated so who knows what that says about me, but at a certain point it makes you wonder is this really content I choose to entertain myself with? Reality and Fiction aside, you are the one playing the game and furthering the story, so it might not be a direct endorsement but one starts to wonder.

I might agree with this a bit if people playing it were the ones who WROTE the story, but just for playing it I don't think it's fair to judge. Personally I didn't expect the game to get that dark but I still wanted to see where the story was going to go. Seeing as it was already written and nothing I do would change it and it's fictional on top of that even if it all ends badly or in an unentertaining way the worst it could do is leave me disappointed. The argument of a player playing the game being the one advancing the story and having those actions attributed to the player themselves is never something I agreed with as we can only do what a game was programmed for by someone else, even in games with branching paths. And that's not even getting into it being fictional.

For the rest though I am glad to hear Galleria has some improvements to combat even if it may end up simple, that was something I definitely found disappointing having played other DPRGs. All these neat ideas and systems to play with and combat was almost uniformly just press attack over and over for 3/4 of the classes.

If I had to guess purely based on what the creator has done before, I'd imagine Galleria will not be a very comfortable story either for anyone who was unable to finish Refrain. And from what I've heard there is MORE story and it's a longer game so as much as I'm looking forward to it myself I also wouldn't recommend it to everyone. But personally sometimes melancholic stories leave me appreciating the good things that do happen and to feel more thankful for my own life.

[okeefe80]

Originally posted by Cliiyo:

I might agree with this a bit if people playing it were the ones who WROTE the story, but just for playing it I don't think it's fair to judge. Personally I didn't expect the game to get that dark but I still wanted to see where the story was going to go. Seeing as it was already written and nothing I do would change it and it's fictional on top of that even if it all ends badly or in an unentertaining way the worst it could do is leave me disappointed. The argument of a player playing the game being the one advancing the story and having those actions attributed to the player themselves is never something I agreed with as we can only do what a game was programmed for by someone else, even in games with branching paths. And that's not even getting into it being fictional

You wanted to see what happens next so you kept playing, it really is that simple. You made that choice not the writer, programmer or anyone else. You don't go out and watch a movie that you have zero interest in because "someone already wrote and filmed it". Im not advocating censorship or removal of the game people should play whatever they want but take an honest look at yourself because this is some sick stuff.

[Landale]

Originally posted by okeefe80:

take an honest look at yourself because this is some sick stuff.

Fiction. Is. Not. Reality.
I can play a game where I kill people by the hundreds, if not thousands. I'd never hurt a real person.
I can play a game where rape and sexual assault occur, even regularly. I'd never do any of that to a real person.

If you want people taking a look at themselves, maybe you should do so as well.

[IndieSlime]

Originally posted by Fiona Kaenbyou:

...Unfortunately I had a lot of issues with that game even from just a couple of hours of playing it. I wanted to ask whether those issues had been adjusted in this game, or if I'm likely to get on with it poorly for the same reasons as Refrain.

I was able to finish the first game, but there were a lot of stomach churning parts in it that I absolutely hated.

[Fortytudo]

Originally posted by Landale:

Fiction. Is. Not. Reality.
I can play a game where I kill people by the hundreds, if not thousands. I'd never hurt a real person.
I can play a game where rape and sexual assault occur, even regularly. I'd never do any of that to a real person.

Its not about whether what youre playing is real or not. Its about what you feel while doing so. If you enjoy watching horrible things being done to fictional characters, it still does tell alot about you. So, if you continue playing and watching this, then youre probably enjoying it or at least okay with it.

Empathy is a thing, and its very important. If you are able to completely cut off your emotions to not feel anything towards things that are "not real", then you can do the same to the real ones, and thats concerning. Its about who you are as a person.

Some things just shouldnt be acceptable, no matter in what format they exist. They have the right to exist, sure, even tho it wouldve been better if they didnt. So its completely fine for people to complain about it. Its not like they are forcing their values and opinions on you, they simply express themselves. Dont just walk around telling people to stop having empathy, emotions and moral compass, or we will end up in a world where nobody cares about anything anymore and everything is acceptable. The world is already bad enough, we need more empathetic people in it.

[優月妃]

Originally posted by Landale:

Keep in mind, the names I use may not match up to how NISA chose to work things.

Most of the cast in Galleria is a lot nicer, but it's still part of NIS's Witch series so you're not in for sunshine and rainbows. Goz is a serial rapist and murderer and does try it on Nachiroux before immediately getting his throat ripped out. Patch, being a little brat, rather frequently makes crude comments to her as well due to her large breasts. Pampleton also tries to rape her at one point, but he was being mind controlled into doing that specifically to force Nachiroux to leave the one place she's safe and is normally a decent guy. There's also Zillda selling out the rest of the Moon Society to Goz and someone else so she can learn how to perfect her cloning magic and ♥♥♥♥ a harem of herself.

You're still going to get asked to leave the dungeon a lot. You can ignore it some times and just press on until you can't continue then possibly have to make half a dozen reports to watch cutscenes for an hour or more because you piled them up.

Most of the time combat is going to be "just attack, with Donum groups occasionally casting spells" early on in the game. Later on it becomes "Physical groups use Limiter Release then spam attack, Tank group uses Fortress Guardian's Crest then spams attack/defend, Donum group alternates between buffing, debuffing, and casting damage spells". You might also make use of Liberation Skills, basically Limit Break type stuff, but these are tied to the Soul Pacts specifically and only a few are actually useful.

So is there any rape or not? In the game description it says "implied sexual assault" so does it happen to any of the main girls like Nachti? I really cant stand hat happen to cute 2D girls and it would be a big dealbreaker.

[okeefe80]

Originally posted by Fortytudo:

Originally posted by Landale:

Fiction. Is. Not. Reality.
I can play a game where I kill people by the hundreds, if not thousands. I'd never hurt a real person.
I can play a game where rape and sexual assault occur, even regularly. I'd never do any of that to a real person.

Its not about whether what youre playing is real or not. Its about what you feel while doing so. If you enjoy watching horrible things being done to fictional characters, it still does tell alot about you. So, if you continue playing and watching this, then youre probably enjoying it or at least okay with it.

Empathy is a thing, and its very important. If you are able to completely cut off your emotions to not feel anything towards things that are "not real", then you can do the same to the real ones, and thats concerning. Its about who you are as a person.

Some things just shouldnt be acceptable, no matter in what format they exist. They have the right to exist, sure, even tho it wouldve been better if they didnt. So its completely fine for people to complain about it. Its not like they are forcing their values and opinions on you, they simply express themselves. Dont just walk around telling people to stop having empathy, emotions and moral compass, or we will end up in a world where nobody cares about anything anymore and everything is acceptable. The world is already bad enough, we need more empathetic people in it.

Agreed, notice how no one just flat out says yes i feel entertained watching women get abused and raped in a fantasy setting. They are all somehow appalled? what kind of sense does that make really.

[優月妃]

Originally posted by Fortytudo:

Originally posted by Landale:

Fiction. Is. Not. Reality.
I can play a game where I kill people by the hundreds, if not thousands. I'd never hurt a real person.
I can play a game where rape and sexual assault occur, even regularly. I'd never do any of that to a real person.

Its not about whether what youre playing is real or not. Its about what you feel while doing so. If you enjoy watching horrible things being done to fictional characters, it still does tell alot about you. So, if you continue playing and watching this, then youre probably enjoying it or at least okay with it.

Empathy is a thing, and its very important. If you are able to completely cut off your emotions to not feel anything towards things that are "not real", then you can do the same to the real ones, and thats concerning. Its about who you are as a person.

Some things just shouldnt be acceptable, no matter in what format they exist. They have the right to exist, sure, even tho it wouldve been better if they didnt. So its completely fine for people to complain about it. Its not like they are forcing their values and opinions on you, they simply express themselves. Dont just walk around telling people to stop having empathy, emotions and moral compass, or we will end up in a world where nobody cares about anything anymore and everything is acceptable. The world is already bad enough, we need more empathetic people in it.

This game surprises you with its dark elements and thats what the devs tried to do with the first game, too. Theres two ways to enjoy dark "entertainment". You appreciate it telling an honest narrative as it was intended with all the feelings that it might invoke in you, and you enjoy that. Then there is the other enjoyment: You enjoy specirfic unmoral, dark acts happening to characters in horrible situations. In my opinion, you are free to enjoy that, too. There is something called "misery porn", people get fascinated by those things. And if its a fetish or a fantasy and you get a kick out of your media, guess thats you. Is it normal? I dont know, maybe, maybe not. People dont really talk all that much about their true kinks, even today.

So yes, i would agree with you that people have a right to complain about some topics this game specifically brings up. Me for example, i dont want 2D girls to get raped like someone in the first game did. With all the snuff and whatnot, and then me sitting there and think about my next dungeon exploration. I cant stomach something like that if its not through the hentai-lens of "well, she still wants it and enjoys it because nobody can beat a d*ck in that world i guess". Just like NTR is fine as a fantasy to have but dont want to actually get cheated on by your significant other. Same for me in the first game: It was too real to stomach that whole rapestuff and i stopped playing it, its no hentai, it was real enough.

That said, dont go and shame people for having no problem playing games like these and give a tedtalk about empathy. You use underhanded language by telling people its acceptable to play games with these topics but then also implying that they are crazy and that there is a potential in you if you can stomach playing games like these, or even worse, enjoy them, to actually do that to real people. Thats what conservative parents said about people playing "murder-simulators" aka fps-shooters when they first came out and made a big outrage. Today we know it doesnt make you a unempathetic killer that has no problem seeing dead people in reallife or even do the dead bodies. Just as much it doesnt make you a unempathetic latent rapist for enjoying games with horrible sexual themes in it. I hope we dont have to wait 10 years for people to understand that but my guess is that it will take even longer for that.

[Fortytudo]

Originally posted by ヒナちゃん:

That said, dont go and shame people for having no problem playing games like these and give a tedtalk about empathy. You use underhanded language by telling people its acceptable to play games with these topics but then also implying that they are crazy and that there is a potential in you if you can stomach playing games like these, or even worse, enjoy them, to actually do that to real people. Thats what conservative parents said about people playing "murder-simulators" aka fps-shooters when the came out and made a big outrage. Today we know it doesnt make you a unempathetic killer that has no problem seeing dead people in rl or even do the dead bodies. Just as much it doesnt make you a unempathetic latent rapist for enjoying games with horrible sexual themes in it. I hope we dont have to wait 10 years for people to understand that but my guess is that it will take even longer for that.

Oh, but that wasnt me who started lecturing others. I know for a fact that personality traits exist in humans and there are certain ways they can manifest themselves. A person who can easily "detach" themselves or their emotions from reality will do this not only when playing games.

But its useless to try and have a serious conversation in here. Ive seen things, observed people, what they do and what they say. There are certain patterns which will be difficult to explain, and steam forums arent the place for this.

But it doesnt matter. The bottom line in all of this is: people are free to express their opinions and feelings. And theres always gonna be that one guy to come in and yell for a millionth time that "Fiction isnt real", as if it justifies anything. Fiction may not be real, but human emotions are, or the lack of them, and thats what should be looked into.

A person who can easily control their emotions and "detach" from reality may not do harm to others, but its the empathetic ones who will always come to help you first. We live in a world where people just pull out their phones and start recording when someone needs help instead of actually helping them.

Im not here to change your way of thinking. I only want to make you think, and the rest is up to you. I will not debate on the topic any further, as it will be pointless. I came here to express my own opinion, just like the rest of you, and thats where I leave it.

Games dont make people violent or whatnot, they only bring out whats already inside of us.

[優月妃]

Originally posted by Fortytudo:

Originally posted by ヒナちゃん:

That said, dont go and shame people for having no problem playing games like these and give a tedtalk about empathy. You use underhanded language by telling people its acceptable to play games with these topics but then also implying that they are crazy and that there is a potential in you if you can stomach playing games like these, or even worse, enjoy them, to actually do that to real people. Thats what conservative parents said about people playing "murder-simulators" aka fps-shooters when the came out and made a big outrage. Today we know it doesnt make you a unempathetic killer that has no problem seeing dead people in rl or even do the dead bodies. Just as much it doesnt make you a unempathetic latent rapist for enjoying games with horrible sexual themes in it. I hope we dont have to wait 10 years for people to understand that but my guess is that it will take even longer for that.

Oh, but that wasnt me who started lecturing others. I know for a fact that personality traits exist in humans and there are certain ways they can manifest themselves. A person who can easily "detach" themselves or their emotions from reality will do this not only when playing games.

But its useless to try and have a serious conversation in here. Ive seen things, observed people, what they do and what they say. There are certain patterns which will be difficult to explain, and steam forums arent the place for this.

But it doesnt matter. The bottom line in all of this is: people are free to express their opinions and feelings. And theres always gonna be that one guy to come in and yell for a millionth time that "Fiction isnt real", as if it justifies anything. Fiction may not be real, but human emotions are, or the lack of them, and thats what should be looked into.

A person who can easily control their emotions and "detach" from reality may not do harm to others, but its the empathetic ones who will always come to help you first. We live in a world where people just pull out their phones and start recording when someone needs help instead of actually helping them.

Im not here to change your way of thinking. I only want to make you think, and the rest is up to you. I will not debate on the topic any further, as it will be pointless. I came here to express my own opinion, just like the rest of you, and thats where I leave it.

Games dont make people violent or whatnot, they only bring out whats already inside of us.

The "fiction isnt real" people are the most sane in conversations about virtual games, literature, movies in my opinion. While i can understand how you construct your line of reasoning, the fundamentals are flawed in logic. While detaching yourself from your feelings is indeed not a good thing in most cases that help you live with other people in a society, that doesnt mean that its exactly whats happening to people that play videogames. You dont "detach" yourself in the same way if you can draw a line between fiction and reality - be it games, movies or books.

Its problematic if you cant draw a clear line, though. You will start to try and make psychological connections between humans and their enjoyment of fictitious themes. Are you a killer for enjoying fps shooters? Do you have an innate lust for children if you masturbate to loli/shota hentai? Do you want to get raped/do rape if you enjoy rape in, lets say, french literature? Most people can draw a line between fantasy/fiction and reality and leave it at that. The ones i observed that cannot, are mostly new generations that grew up with the internet - an important part of their reality is virtual. It is no surprise that these topics about "do little-clad women in various situations in videogames make you a sexist, rapist or are you secretly/innately one for enjoying them already?" shot out of the ground, just like 15 years ago with the whole fps shooter dilemma. We came back to the same question, just through a different way. Its not misunderstanding conservative parents this time, its delusional people that grew up with already blurred lines of fiction and reality thanks to the internet and their enablers, people like you.

I think its a good conversation to have, and i too, want you to think about what i wrote. Maybe sometimes there just isnt a as strong connection between things as you may have thought and validating people that think there is in video games specifically might do more harm to us than otherwise.