Deeper dungeon levels are hard as hell

[pablogo]

I feel like, in comparison with normal levels from base game, these are kinda unfair. I mean, 1 vs 3 is too much.

Levels are way too long and ends up being a little boring. Also, the heros are always lvl 8+. Its almost impossible to kill them, gotta use lava traps just to survive xd

[Woudo]

Many of the deeper dungeons are poorly balanced, with high-level heroes or parties that can be encountered at the start of the map. Pouring over the map files, some of Bullfrogs map design decisions are genuine head-scratchers.

Keepers should be relatively easy, unless you're using KeeperFX. Bullfrog KeeperAI was borderline comatose, but KFX Keeper AI has picked up a lot of improvements over the years. They were never overtly buffed via script, just became progressively more able to manage their own dungeon.

[YourMaster]

But yes, many user made maps are easily more fun and better designed than the deeper dungeons.

[kreezil]

Originally posted by Woudo:

Many of the deeper dungeons are poorly balanced, with high-level heroes or parties that can be encountered at the start of the map. Pouring over the map files, some of Bullfrogs map design decisions are genuine head-scratchers.

Keepers should be relatively easy, unless you're using KeeperFX. Bullfrog KeeperAI was borderline comatose, but KFX Keeper AI has picked up a lot of improvements over the years. They were never overtly buffed via script, just became progressively more able to manage their own dungeon.

The Keeper AI in FX is absolutely brutal, especially when you take in consideration that the Deeper Dungeon levels were originally written with the poor Keeper AI in mind, so now not only do they often have more creatures than you, they train everything,have gems and are exceptionally more aggressive and often times come straight at you almost immediately. You have to abuse everything you can to beat them in Deeper Dungeons.

[CzapkaKloszarda]

I was struggling with level 8 but after few tries I figured out strategy to overpower the opponent. Then level 16 was also a hard one. After few tries and a longer playtime the map has been figured out. Good challenge I must say. Right now struggling with level 18. Didn't find out yet how to beat those hordes of incoming heroes especially level 8th fairies which destroy my crew to the point there is no way to defend the dungeon from another similar party incoming from the other side. So far beside those 3 levels I didn't have any problem with all other levels in between.

[YourMaster]

Originally posted by doop-crab:

The Keeper AI in FX is absolutely brutal, especially when you take in consideration that the Deeper Dungeon levels were originally written with the poor Keeper AI in mind, so now not only do they often have more creatures than you, they train everything,have gems and are exceptionally more aggressive and often times come straight at you almost immediately. You have to abuse everything you can to beat them in Deeper Dungeons.

Deeper Dungeons came pre-patched to the better AI, for both the deeper dungeons levels and the original campaign.

Originally posted by CzapkaKloszarda:

I was struggling with level 8 but after few tries I figured out strategy to overpower the opponent. Then level 16 was also a hard one. After few tries and a longer playtime the map has been figured out. Good challenge I must say. Right now struggling with level 18. Didn't find out yet how to beat those hordes of incoming heroes especially level 8th fairies which destroy my crew to the point there is no way to defend the dungeon from another similar party incoming from the other side. So far beside those 3 levels I didn't have any problem with all other levels in between.

Level 16 and 18 are the hardest levels of the game yes, in the original game they are the same. Many people decide to 'skip' 16 by rushing blue with a transferred creature, but there's no easy way to do 18.
On 18 there is generally two ways: Either wall in and live of selling taps until you are very well trained and have traps for defense too, or hurry up and kill all parties as they spawn. Getting the prison in the east early helps, so you have loads of skeletons by the time the fairies come.
In either case, the faster you mine gold, the sooner heroes attack on 18, so only mine as much as you need.

[CzapkaKloszarda]

I finished the game yesterday. My solution to level 18 was to fortify on the entire western side and partially on the east. Dig out the soil to the north just to get to the gold veins and then carve the gold from inside out the way you will keep 1 tile of gold keeping you appart from heroes sniffing all around. Play on time. Use all gold you have to train your demons. You can capture the two tentacles on the east side and then dig up to the prison. It is up to you if you capture the prison or not. If you do you can fortify the northern wall a step further so noone can reach you. If you won't capture the prison then enemy dwarves will eventually (late into the game - you will be ready to kill everyone) cut through the white-fortified wall and breach your dungeon. You can however prevent that by leaving one tile of your own wall.

Train bile demons, mistress'es and orcs. Every killed enemy turn into a vampire and your forces will be unstoppable. When the massive attack comes (the one with the fairies from the western side), you can shortly before that place a lava trap in front of the hero gateway in the upper eastern part (will spawn multiple wizards and giants) in order to deal with only one enemy party at the time and then kill the other one.

Once the dungeon is breached and fight starts you need to be quite quick to get to the gem in the very north to provide enough gold to keep everyone happy especially the greedy vampires you will turn. Once gold (gem) is secured and fairies killed it's straight forward to eliminate the rest of the enemy in the north.

Keep someone constantly on the guard around the gem so you won't need to spawn another imps again and again.

Interesting level I must say. Struggled in the beginning but this strategy brought me to easy victory.




Off topic: I noticed on level 19 and 20 as well that the enemy is not digging any gold whatsoever (no source of income) and yet is able to keep everyone happy at high level while constantly spamming lightning on my minions with no end to it. Somebody please explain it to me how is that possible? Is AI cheating here?

[pablogo]

Originally posted by CzapkaKloszarda:

I finished the game yesterday. My solution to level 18 was to fortify on the entire western side and partially on the east. Dig out the soil to the north just to get to the gold veins and then carve the gold from inside out the way you will keep 1 tile of gold keeping you appart from heroes sniffing all around. Play on time. Use all gold you have to train your demons. You can capture the two tentacles on the east side and then dig up to the prison. It is up to you if you capture the prison or not. If you do you can fortify the northern wall a step further so noone can reach you. If you won't capture the prison then enemy dwarves will eventually (late into the game - you will be ready to kill everyone) cut through the white-fortified wall and breach your dungeon. You can however prevent that by leaving one tile of your own wall.

Train bile demons, mistress'es and orcs. Every killed enemy turn into a vampire and your forces will be unstoppable. When the massive attack comes (the one with the fairies from the western side), you can shortly before that place a lava trap in front of the hero gateway in the upper eastern part (will spawn multiple wizards and giants) in order to deal with only one enemy party at the time and then kill the other one.

Once the dungeon is breached and fight starts you need to be quite quick to get to the gem in the very north to provide enough gold to keep everyone happy especially the greedy vampires you will turn. Once gold (gem) is secured and fairies killed it's straight forward to eliminate the rest of the enemy in the north.

Keep someone constantly on the guard around the gem so you won't need to spawn another imps again and again.

Interesting level I must say. Struggled in the beginning but this strategy brought me to easy victory.




Off topic: I noticed on level 19 and 20 as well that the enemy is not digging any gold whatsoever (no source of income) and yet is able to keep everyone happy at high level while constantly spamming lightning on my minions with no end to it. Somebody please explain it to me how is that possible? Is AI cheating here?

I dont think AI is cheating, I read somewhere that AI in FX is smart enough to sell rooms or traps to get the gold when needed

[MisterOgreFromTheSkies]

They start the game with a LOT of gold in bank in these two levels.

[CzapkaKloszarda]

well I was observing the situation and got into a conclusion that this is impossible. On level 20 the other keeper had plenty of vampires leveled around 8-10. Their paycheck is counted in thousands. His payday for all the monsters he had would be around 40k. Meanwhile he is not digging any gold whatsoever. Never did since the beginning of the map. All his creatures are either training or scavenging my dragons. And spamming lightning to the point that he is easily able to kill my creatures almost only by using the spell. At some point it is absolutely ridiculous. I tested it how much gold does it take to kill strong creatures on high level using only lightning. We are talking about dozens of thousands gold. Honestly I would not be able to pull it out despite the fact I am constantly digging the gem...

It was actually easier to notice on level 19 by using the eye spell. I saw that the other keeper has absolutely 0 income. Yet ~30 creatures on level 10 and everyone is happy. Yes he had plenty of skeletons but still it is impossible to spam lightning in such way over and over without having plenty of gold. I was even testing this situation by teasing the other keeper the way that maybe he will eventually run out of gold. But no, it never stopped.

I know that you can make traps and doors for free and then sell them for profit. On this kind of scale it is impossible.

[MisterOgreFromTheSkies]

Originally posted by CzapkaKloszarda:

well I was observing the situation and got into a conclusion that this is impossible. On level 20 the other keeper had plenty of vampires leveled around 8-10. Their paycheck is counted in thousands. His payday for all the monsters he had would be around 40k. Meanwhile he is not digging any gold whatsoever. Never did since the beginning of the map. All his creatures are either training or scavenging my dragons. And spamming lightning to the point that he is easily able to kill my creatures almost only by using the spell. At some point it is absolutely ridiculous. I tested it how much gold does it take to kill strong creatures on high level using only lightning. We are talking about dozens of thousands gold. Honestly I would not be able to pull it out despite the fact I am constantly digging the gem...

It was actually easier to notice on level 19 by using the eye spell. I saw that the other keeper has absolutely 0 income. Yet ~30 creatures on level 10 and everyone is happy. Yes he had plenty of skeletons but still it is impossible to spam lightning in such way over and over without having plenty of gold. I was even testing this situation by teasing the other keeper the way that maybe he will eventually run out of gold. But no, it never stopped.

I know that you can make traps and doors for free and then sell them for profit. On this kind of scale it is impossible.

Well as I said, they start with a LOT of gold.
In the last level for example, blue starts with 2 460 000 gold.
In level 19, he "only" starts with 800 000 gold but only has skeletons and spiders mostly, which are cheap to pay/train.

[CzapkaKloszarda]

How big would the treasury need to be to store such enormous amount?

[MisterOgreFromTheSkies]

Originally posted by CzapkaKloszarda:

How big would the treasury need to be to store such enormous amount? :lunar2019crylaughingpig:

A single square for payday, but none works too. When you start the level, you have gold you can use without needing a treasury.

Starting gold and gold you get by selling traps/doors don't need a treasury. Gold you get with triggers too, but that doesn't happen in the original campaign.

[CzapkaKloszarda]

aaa OK

[Sido Olavich]

Your offering have made the gods angry!