Crafting absolutely SUCKS

[Wolfe Beckhaver]

I am 23/24 Armorsmithing for Jack of Plate Gauntlets I and 23/25 Jack of Plate Sabatons I.

The amount of materials it takes to craft two sets (one for me, one for wife) is pretty ridiculous. Both of these items fall under "easy" to craft.

Just crafted two of the legs and two of the sabatons and all 4 failed.

The time it took to harvest all the materials from the generic leather to the insane amount of iron and charcoal needed to make this stuff is ridiculous. Then to have ALL FOUR EASY items fail.

This is an insurmountable waste of time.

[Menzagitat]

Yes, I noticed players complaining about crafting being grindy since closed alpha tests.
Feels bad to play in small teams.
I just noticed a video with a large castle which was built by 28 players and supported by another team of gatherers.
https://youtu.be/9bUQy06LG3Q?t=791

Devs also advertised the game to streamers and discouraged solo players. :(

[Aithemed]

Thats the point, need other players , the trade. the orgs. isnt Valheim.

[Otkin]

Crafting is fine. You are just very unlucky.

Very Easy crafts have about 5% probability of failure (based on my experience of levelling crafts). The probability of failure is even higher for Easy. Since each crafting attempt is independent each of them carries a risk. Four bad consecutive rolls have a non-zero (albeit low) probability of happening.

I have not seen crafts fail at Trivial. It might be a good idea to get your crafting level to the one required by your desired item (the second of two numbers, i.e. 24 for Jack of Plate Gauntlets) before attempting an expensive craft.

[Nightruler]

Yeah, the amount of raw material needed for just a couple of professions are insane! I used to think that the price for the most grindy and repetitive game I’ve ever played went to Frontier for Elite Dangerous but now … oh boy! – Pax Dei’s level of mindless grind exceeds ED’s multiple times.

However, the grind in Pax Dei has a strange influence on me making it very addictive but without Netflix, Amazon Prime, Audible etc. to watch/hear while grinding mats and standing in front of a crafting bench for hours after hours doing nothing other than occasionally get rid of newly crafted items in a full inventory I would have deleted PD from my hard drive shortly after purchase.

Let’s see what the devs come up with in the patch tomorrow. If the have fixed the obscured 3th person view while building and thus eliminated the need for constantly planting temporary walls to stand up against I’ll start building a new home. Otherwise, I’ll pass. Beside after being “grind-trained” in Pax Dei I plan to time-sink more hours of my life into ED during the coming months.

Btw: The moment they reset my characters skill levels; I’m done! I’ll never redo what I have been through until now.

[Starlight Rose]

Agreed, the numbers need to be reviewed. Easy and Very Easy in my experience fail too often.

[Otkin]

Originally posted by Starlight Rose:

Agreed, the numbers need to be reviewed. Easy and Very Easy in my experience fail too often.

Very Easy has a failure rate of about 5%. Easy is about 10%. How much lower do you want them to be?

Did you consider that a craft becomes Easy when you are 4 levels below the required mastery level and Very Easy at 2 levels below the requirement? Do not focus solely on difficulty description, you need to pay attention to levels as well.

Most games do not allow crafting below the required level at all. IMO, Pax Dei is very player-friendly in this regard. If a player is willing to risk they can get higher tier items earlier. If they don't they just need to level their mastery.

[Wolfe Beckhaver]

Originally posted by Otkin:

Originally posted by Starlight Rose:

Agreed, the numbers need to be reviewed. Easy and Very Easy in my experience fail too often.

Very Easy has a failure rate of about 5%. Easy is about 10%. How much lower do you want them to be?

Did you consider that a craft becomes Easy when you are 4 levels below the required mastery level and Very Easy at 2 levels below the requirement? Do not focus solely on difficulty description, you need to pay attention to levels as well.

Most games do not allow crafting below the required level at all. IMO, Pax Dei is very player-friendly in this regard. If a player is willing to risk they can get higher tier items earlier. If they don't they just need to level their mastery.

I was very easy and easy. I posted this in my op.

"I am 23/24 Armorsmithing for Jack of Plate Gauntlets I and 23/25 Jack of Plate Sabatons I"

I don't care what planet you are on, I should not get 4 failures in a row with my crafting as high as it was for those pieces. Its demoralizing because its a colossal waste of time.

[Otkin]

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

Originally posted by Otkin:

Very Easy has a failure rate of about 5%. Easy is about 10%. How much lower do you want them to be?

Did you consider that a craft becomes Easy when you are 4 levels below the required mastery level and Very Easy at 2 levels below the requirement? Do not focus solely on difficulty description, you need to pay attention to levels as well.

Most games do not allow crafting below the required level at all. IMO, Pax Dei is very player-friendly in this regard. If a player is willing to risk they can get higher tier items earlier. If they don't they just need to level their mastery.

I was very easy and easy. I posted this in my op.

"I am 23/24 Armorsmithing for Jack of Plate Gauntlets I and 23/25 Jack of Plate Sabatons I"

I don't care what planet you are on, I should not get 4 failures in a row with my crafting as high as it was for those pieces. Its demoralizing because its a colossal waste of time.

Your level in Armoursmithing is 23. You are attempting to craft the level 24 and level 25 items. You do not have enough mastery to guarantee 100% success for either of them. Very Easy does not mean 100% success!

I admit you've been incredibly unlucky to fail all 4 crafts. However, it is just that -- bad luck. Each craft is rolled independently, therefore, without sufficient mastery every single one of your crafting attempts can fail (please see the probability theory for the detailed explanation).

If you do not want to fail level your crafting to the required level (25 in your case). The game does not force you to take a risk. It is your own choice.

[Wolfe Beckhaver]

Originally posted by Otkin:

Your level in Armoursmithing is 23. You are attempting to craft the level 24 and level 25 items. You do not have enough mastery to guarantee 100% success for either of them. Very Easy does not mean 100% success!

No, but they are defined as VERY EASY and EASY, meaning it should be an EASY task to craft the item, not a 4x in a row failure.

Originally posted by Otkin:

I admit you've been incredibly unlucky to fail all 4 crafts. However, it is just that -- bad luck.

No, this goes beyond the bounds of "luck" and into the territory of near impossible. It's not true RNG.

Originally posted by Otkin:

Each craft is rolled independently, therefore, without sufficient mastery every single one of your crafting attempts can fail (please see the probability theory for the detailed explanation).

My mastery was amazingly sufficient. One step out of 24 steps away to craft an item should not result in multiple failures in a row, its asinine.

Originally posted by Otkin:

If you do not want to fail level your crafting to the required level (25 in your case). The game does not force you to take a risk. It is your own choice.

Or better yet, not play the terribly designed game.

In fact, it should not even be a matter of whether or not an item crafted with that much mastery towards it is even crafted (it should be a 100% craft), but the "roll" should determine quality of the craft.

This game is amazingly flawed at its foundational levels. The fact that one can not master in a specific area (meaning everyone with enough time will produce the same crafts), means there is little reason to "trade". There are literally no mechanics to force an emergent gameplay from players when everyone can do the same thing.

I mean World of Warcraft figured this out 20 years ago by only allowing 2 professions (as many games have done). Star Wars Galaxies would be the model to follow, but instead we get this luke warm pointless system that is not only the worst grind I have ever seen in a game, but brings nothing to the table.

but all of that aside. It boils down to this. I spent a lot of time doing mundane (not fun) tasks to level my armorsmithing to the point where it should be a guarantee'd craft (at the very MINIMUM only lose 1 of the 4 crafts) only for it to fail 4x in a row.

That is not fun. That does not make me want to play. And based on the 300 people playing Pax Dei, I would HEAVILY argue I am not the only one who feels this way.

So your argument is moot, because the crafting system as it stands is not fun and seemingly this is the case for a large amount of people.

[MrMan]

I don't know what you're talking about. .. I have leveled up armor & weapon making to 36 as well as most other trade skills into the 30s.

Sure I failed some crafts, sometimes when making a named item I then had to go and refarm before I could try again. I didnt think it was worth posting about let alone quitting.

My only issue was the ridiculious amount of items you need to make to gain a single skill point in the 30s. If you continue playing you'll see what I mean and have something worth posting about lol

[Otkin]

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

Originally posted by Otkin:

Your level in Armoursmithing is 23. You are attempting to craft the level 24 and level 25 items. You do not have enough mastery to guarantee 100% success for either of them. Very Easy does not mean 100% success!

No, but they are defined as VERY EASY and EASY, meaning it should be an EASY task to craft the item, not a 4x in a row failure.

Originally posted by Otkin:

I admit you've been incredibly unlucky to fail all 4 crafts. However, it is just that -- bad luck.

No, this goes beyond the bounds of "luck" and into the territory of near impossible. It's not true RNG.

Originally posted by Otkin:

Each craft is rolled independently, therefore, without sufficient mastery every single one of your crafting attempts can fail (please see the probability theory for the detailed explanation).

My mastery was amazingly sufficient. One step out of 24 steps away to craft an item should not result in multiple failures in a row, its asinine.

You are either affected by the gambler's fallacy or misunderstand the law of big numbers (or maybe both). You can read about these here[statisticsbyjim.com].

Basically, no matter how regretful, frustrating, or demoralising it is, the rolls have no effect on each other and each of them carries a risk of failure. You were unlucky to fail all four.
The law of big numbers is not applicable in this case as well because your sample size is just 4. It is not enough to talk about probabilities.

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

In fact, it should not even be a matter of whether or not an item crafted with that much mastery towards it is even crafted (it should be a 100% craft), but the "roll" should determine quality of the craft.

This game is amazingly flawed at its foundational levels. The fact that one can not master in a specific area (meaning everyone with enough time will produce the same crafts), means there is little reason to "trade". There are literally no mechanics to force an emergent gameplay from players when everyone can do the same thing.

I mean World of Warcraft figured this out 20 years ago by only allowing 2 professions (as many games have done). Star Wars Galaxies would be the model to follow, but instead we get this luke warm pointless system that is not only the worst grind I have ever seen in a game, but brings nothing to the table.

but all of that aside. It boils down to this. I spent a lot of time doing mundane (not fun) tasks to level my armorsmithing to the point where it should be a guarantee'd craft (at the very MINIMUM only lose 1 of the 4 crafts) only for it to fail 4x in a row.

That is not fun. That does not make me want to play. And based on the 300 people playing Pax Dei, I would HEAVILY argue I am not the only one who feels this way.

So your argument is moot, because the crafting system as it stands is not fun and seemingly this is the case for a large amount of people.

I am not sure I agree with you. I think Pax Dei has a very promising crafting system design. I also believe that it is somewhat premature to come up with any final judgements at this stage of the game's development. It is an Alpha. A lot of things may have not been implemented yet or might get redesigned.

Do not get me wrong, I understand your frustration with the failed crafts. However, I think you are being a bit too melodramatic.

[Wolfe Beckhaver]

Originally posted by Otkin:

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

No, but they are defined as VERY EASY and EASY, meaning it should be an EASY task to craft the item, not a 4x in a row failure.


No, this goes beyond the bounds of "luck" and into the territory of near impossible. It's not true RNG.


My mastery was amazingly sufficient. One step out of 24 steps away to craft an item should not result in multiple failures in a row, its asinine.

You are either affected by the gambler's fallacy or misunderstand the law of big numbers (or maybe both). You can read about these here[statisticsbyjim.com].

Basically, no matter how regretful, frustrating, or demoralising it is, the rolls have no effect on each other and each of them carries a risk of failure. You were unlucky to fail all four.
The law of big numbers is not applicable in this case as well because your sample size is just 4. It is not enough to talk about probabilities.

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

In fact, it should not even be a matter of whether or not an item crafted with that much mastery towards it is even crafted (it should be a 100% craft), but the "roll" should determine quality of the craft.

This game is amazingly flawed at its foundational levels. The fact that one can not master in a specific area (meaning everyone with enough time will produce the same crafts), means there is little reason to "trade". There are literally no mechanics to force an emergent gameplay from players when everyone can do the same thing.

I mean World of Warcraft figured this out 20 years ago by only allowing 2 professions (as many games have done). Star Wars Galaxies would be the model to follow, but instead we get this luke warm pointless system that is not only the worst grind I have ever seen in a game, but brings nothing to the table.

but all of that aside. It boils down to this. I spent a lot of time doing mundane (not fun) tasks to level my armorsmithing to the point where it should be a guarantee'd craft (at the very MINIMUM only lose 1 of the 4 crafts) only for it to fail 4x in a row.

That is not fun. That does not make me want to play. And based on the 300 people playing Pax Dei, I would HEAVILY argue I am not the only one who feels this way.

So your argument is moot, because the crafting system as it stands is not fun and seemingly this is the case for a large amount of people.

I am not sure I agree with you. I think Pax Dei has a very promising crafting system design. I also believe that it is somewhat premature to come up with any final judgements at this stage of the game's development. It is an Alpha. A lot of things may have not been implemented yet or might get redesigned.

Do not get me wrong, I understand your frustration with the failed crafts. However, I think you are being a bit too melodramatic.

You are missing the point.

From a game play standpoint, what I have gone through to get to the point of crafting those items is an insane amount of mundane, boring tasks. For them to fail, its salt in a wound.

Its not fun, it does not make me want to engage. I don't like wasting time and to lose those crafts, with the amount of effort that went into the game to get to the point of crafting them is simply inexcusable.

Gating content is one thing, abusing a players time is another.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

Originally posted by Otkin:

You are either affected by the gambler's fallacy or misunderstand the law of big numbers (or maybe both). You can read about these here[statisticsbyjim.com].

Basically, no matter how regretful, frustrating, or demoralising it is, the rolls have no effect on each other and each of them carries a risk of failure. You were unlucky to fail all four.
The law of big numbers is not applicable in this case as well because your sample size is just 4. It is not enough to talk about probabilities.



I am not sure I agree with you. I think Pax Dei has a very promising crafting system design. I also believe that it is somewhat premature to come up with any final judgements at this stage of the game's development. It is an Alpha. A lot of things may have not been implemented yet or might get redesigned.

Do not get me wrong, I understand your frustration with the failed crafts. However, I think you are being a bit too melodramatic.

You are missing the point.

From a game play standpoint, what I have gone through to get to the point of crafting those items is an insane amount of mundane, boring tasks. For them to fail, its salt in a wound.

Its not fun, it does not make me want to engage. I don't like wasting time and to lose those crafts, with the amount of effort that went into the game to get to the point of crafting them is simply inexcusable.

Gating content is one thing, abusing a players time is another.

I think your missing the point...
I think most younger gamers these days have a very entitled idea of what a healthy MMORGP should be....

A) A Healthy MMORPG has several types of players that include (Crafters) and others who (Buy) from the crafters....

When an MMORPG design's their game in a way that makes "Everyone" a crafter like Pax Dei has done to date it creates an Unhealthy game....

B) Crafting / Leveling "Should" Take an extremely long time currently I feel that Pax Dei's crafting is FAR TOO EASY to max out....

C) I can to an extent understand the dislike to losing mat's when you fail a craft... However you can mitigate this very easy if you stick with "Easy" Crafting... And if thats too mundane for you then how about you buy or trade from a crafter instead of trying to be a crafter, if you don't enjoy it....

*** At the same time I also understand that their is not much to do in game other then lvl up your crafting and build you house*** But you need to think about this stuff in the guise of what a healthy and fully complete MMORPG would and should be... And this crafting system certainly has lots of issue's...

To many crafting systems are Tied together, a Player should be able to specialize in certain area's, and building is also far too tied too the crafting system, "Everyone" Needs to be able to build their base so tying it to crafting the way it is.... Is in my opinion not healthy for the future of crafting....

So I currently see crafting is a mixed light, Its too easy to currently level and its certainly far too tied together, crafting "NEEDS" to be "OPTIONAL" for a healthy MMORPG to have a thriving Economy....

[Otkin]

Originally posted by Wolfe Beckhaver:

You are missing the point.

From a game play standpoint, what I have gone through to get to the point of crafting those items is an insane amount of mundane, boring tasks. For them to fail, its salt in a wound.

Its not fun, it does not make me want to engage. I don't like wasting time and to lose those crafts, with the amount of effort that went into the game to get to the point of crafting them is simply inexcusable.

Gating content is one thing, abusing a players time is another.

Ultimately, it is a user mistake, not the game design problem. Your level of crafting mastery is not high enough for 100% success rates (for your desired items). You gambled and lost.

If you were to claim that difficulty level descriptions are confusing I would agree with you. As evident in this thread, people do not pay attention to mastery levels and instead focus on the difficulty levels and especially their wording. This can be seen as a design flaw.

As for mundane, boring tasks, it is a matter of perspective. There are people, including myself, who enjoy gathering materials and levelling crafting professions. I like Pax Dei precisely because I can spend 300-400 hours on trades while it is still in Alpha stage. I failed a lot of crafts, lost a lot of materials, and I do not feel bitter at all. My time is not wasted and I am not an abused player.

Perhaps Pax Dei is not a game for you. Have you tried Throne & Liberty?

[Wolfe Beckhaver]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

I think your missing the point...

No, it is you who are missing the point.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

I think most younger gamers these days have a very entitled idea of what a healthy MMORGP should be....

Asinine to assume my age. I am most likely old enough to be your father.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

A) A Healthy MMORPG has several types of players that include (Crafters) and others who (Buy) from the crafters....

Yes, and Pax Dei allows for EVERYONE to craft the same goods. There is no need to trade when you can make the item yourself.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

When an MMORPG design's their game in a way that makes "Everyone" a crafter like Pax Dei has done to date it creates an Unhealthy game....

This is my point.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

B) Crafting / Leveling "Should" Take an extremely long time currently I feel that Pax Dei's crafting is FAR TOO EASY to max out....

But eventually everyone will be there. The system as its currently designed is flawed without being able to specialize and lock those specilizations to the character.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

C) I can to an extent understand the dislike to losing mat's when you fail a craft... However you can mitigate this very easy if you stick with "Easy" Crafting... And if thats too mundane for you then how about you buy or trade from a crafter instead of trying to be a crafter, if you don't enjoy it....

You clearly did not read my OP or other posts. I had 4 failures back to back. 2 were "very easy" and 2 were "easy". Go reread my op, I even include the actual level.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

*** At the same time I also understand that their is not much to do in game other then lvl up your crafting and build you house*** But you need to think about this stuff in the guise of what a healthy and fully complete MMORPG would and should be... And this crafting system certainly has lots of issue's...

I am a designer by trade, I think of everything in terms of the end goal, which why I stated that crafting as it stands in Pax Dei is terribly designed.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

To many crafting systems are Tied together, a Player should be able to specialize in certain area's, and building is also far too tied too the crafting system, "Everyone" Needs to be able to build their base so tying it to crafting the way it is.... Is in my opinion not healthy for the future of crafting....

Agreed.

Originally posted by jfoytek:

So I currently see crafting is a mixed light, Its too easy to currently level and its certainly far too tied together, crafting "NEEDS" to be "OPTIONAL" for a healthy MMORPG to have a thriving Economy....

[/quote]
Agreed.

Not sure why you replied to me when we seem to agree on most if not all points.